[Bodiesneverfound]

Question for you guys- it's a tough one and might be a bit graphic and/or triggering. I've posted a little about this before so sorry if it's redundant but I had a specific question about something that happened. Anyway I'm dealing with the fallout of a relationship that was physically and verbally abusive on both sides. We both still love each other and want to work through our issues with individual and possibly couples therapy before we consider dating again and so far so good. But my question is if what I did that caused the breakup was abusive. I understand that anything can be a decent reason for a breakup, but I'm just trying to figure out if I was being abusive or not in this incident.


As I said I've posted about it before but here's a little background- we had both hit each other in the past and he had chocked me on a couple occasions. I got therapy and was able to stop the physical abuse on my end, he did not get help nor did he stop (he's finally getting help now). However there were still incidents that I will readily admit to as being verbally/emotionally abusive on my end and I fully take responsibility for them.

The incident that broke us up was this: I called him a rapist. I was prescribed Ambien at the time and it caused me to have black outs wherein I would start fights and become verbally abusive. I already knew this and yet I had not mentioned it to my psychiatrist and I kept taking Ambien because I liked how it felt and I couldn't imagine any other way to fix my insomnia at the time. I take full responsibility for not mentioning these side effects to my doctor. I also understand that just because a person is under the influence of drugs or alcohol doesn't mean they aren't still responsible for the things they do or say.


I am not trying to make excuses for the name calling but I had valid reasons for thinking the incident I was talking about may have been rape and I am not sorry for thinking these things- I am only sorry for how it came out. The incident that sparked this had happened months ago. We used to have a lot of rough sex and sometimes role played rape scenarios and we never had a safe word. He told me that he felt like we didn't need one because we'd been together for three years and he knew my body language well enough to know when it was a play no or a real no.

So we were having sex like normal and he accidentally put it in the wrong hole (I don't know a nice way to put this). This has happened before and it's not a big deal- I just push back and reposition myself. So I tried to do that and he held me down and kept going. I kept pushing back and said no repeatedly. I told him he was hurting me and he did stop and immediately started apologizing. I've been through sexual trauma in the past before and this experience set off my PTSD. How I usually act is to dissociate and pretend like nothing bothered me. That's what I did and I asked him to have sex with me again normally which we did. We never mentioned it again.

There were other reasons I jumped to the conclusion this may have been rape: he'd asked me in the past if he thought he had raped me the first time we had sex. I don't remember it much but I never thought of it as rape and still don't. He told me I kept telling him I wasn't on birth control and pushing my hand on his chest when he got close. I don't really remember this, we were drunk at the time, but anyway he told me he wasn't sure if I wanted to have sex but he did it anyway because as he put it “he was horny”. I don't know how I was supposed to react to this but it really bothered me. Add to that the fact that when he took Ambien he tried to push me into sex when I didn't want it (I was sober and this happened a few times, I never mentioned it to him, and no he did not rape me then but it makes me feel icky) and the fact that he had chocked me in the middle of fights before.

So I recently started getting flashbacks of that incident that I thought might have been rape. I was working with my therapist about it and trying to figure out a safe sane reasonable way to talk with him about the incident. I wanted to sit him down and ask him just to clarify if he had known whether my no was a play no or not and to set up a safe word. Unfortunately before I got the chance to do this I was irresponsible, took Ambien, and started hurling accusations of rape at him.

He didn't even know what I was talking about and eventually he calmed down and I was able to tell him (this was after I was no longer on Ambien a few hours later). He says he doesn't remember the incident at all but swears he would never hurt me like that. Long story short he became physically and verbally abusive with me about the incident and within a month he broke up with me because of it. We never discussed the times he tried to get me to have sex with him while he was on Ambien (I have never told him about that) nor have I brought up the fact that he was genuinely worried at some point about whether the first time we had sex was consensual or not.

Anyway now that we are trying to work out our issues I want to know if this was abusive on my end or not. I have apologized for calling him a rapist as well as any other incidents of verbal or physical abuse in our past. I take full responsibility for my actions and for my decision to continue taking Ambien even after I was aware of its side effects. I also no longer take it. However I think he has no idea why I thought he might have raped me nor does he want to hear about it. I think my reasons for thinking this were legitimate and while that does not excuse verbal abuse, it means we still need to talk about this issue in therapy. How should I do this? Do you guys agree? Was what I was thinking valid in that situation or am I just crazy? Was I abusive and how do I make amends?

[Gr3tta]

This is very complicated, and I understand your confusion. I also understand his. In very very general terms, I would classify any intentionally hurtful language including name calling and accusations out of context to be abusive. Under this very broad definition, I would include your calling him a rapist abusive.
This does not mean you don't have the right to be upset over a negative sexual encounter. I am only commenting on the question of your particular statement.
I am glad you are seeking guidance and counseling regarding this relationship. It sounds like it has been very painful to both sides. I truly wish you a healthy resolution.

[Bodiesneverfound]

Originally Posted by Gr3tta

This is very complicated, and I understand your confusion. I also understand his. In very very general terms, I would classify any intentionally hurtful language including name calling and accusations out of context to be abusive. Under this very broad definition, I would include your calling him a rapist abusive.
This does not mean you don't have the right to be upset over a negative sexual encounter. I am only commenting on the question of your particular statement.
I am glad you are seeking guidance and counseling regarding this relationship. It sounds like it has been very painful to both sides. I truly wish you a healthy resolution.

Thanks- that's how I was looking at it too. There's no justifiable reason to call someone that regardless of the situation. I'm scared that if I bring up the issues surrounding the incident that he'll negate anything I have to say by bringing up the fact that I was abusive too. It makes me feel like I can't even talk to him about it. I am sorry for calling him a rapist but I'm not sorry for entertaining the possibility that he might have been one given the circumstances.

[Gr3tta]

I'm glad I didn't hurt your feelings with my honesty. I think this is a topic best discussed in counseling if you can both agree to go. Sometimes a neutral third party can really be helpful with really volatile topics like this. You are really brave to be tackling this relationship and working on healing it.

[Bodiesneverfound]

Originally Posted by Gr3tta

I'm glad I didn't hurt your feelings with my honesty. I think this is a topic best discussed in counseling if you can both agree to go. Sometimes a neutral third party can really be helpful with really volatile topics like this. You are really brave to be tackling this relationship and working on healing it.

Thanks! I know I've been abusive in the past so my feelings aren't hurt. There's never any excuse for abuse but there are a lot of complicated reasons for why it happens. I think it's so tough in this relationship because we were both abusive, not just one of us, so nothing is very black and white. I suppose it's probably more like that for everyone though and we just don't want to admit our own hand in these types of problems.
With this situation it's tough because I want him to understand where I was coming from (a genuinely legitimate place) but I kind of killed my legitimacy by being abusive about it and so now he doesn't want to talk and it sounds like I'm making excuses if I try to explain even though I'm not. I need to make amends and apologize and change my behavior but I need to be understood too.

[Perna]

Calling someone names is not abuse. If you were forced to have sex, no matter what the condition, that is abuse. If he held you to him with his male, superior weight/strength, and you were struggling to get away, that is physical and sexual abuse.

Originally Posted by Perna

Calling someone names is not abusive.

Actually, it very well can be. Name calling can be very emotionally abusive.

Regardless, seems like the poster and this man are bad news for each other. Perhaps they would both be better off in the long run moving on to become healthy individuals and to find different relationships down the road without the baggage and potential for such disfunction.

[Bodiesneverfound]

I definitely think name calling can be very abusive. Emotional abuse is tougher to define and/or quantify but it definitely leaves scars. My family was emotionally abusive and my ex and I were both emotionally as well as physically abusive to each other during our relationship. I got help (and am still getting it because regardless of whether he is in my life or not that isn't the kind of person I want to be) and he's finally getting help too. There were times when I've called him other names and I consider that to be without a shadow of a doubt abusive regardless of what state of mind I was in. The only reason I'm uncertain with this incident is that I don't know if it was rape or not. He says he doesn't remember it but up till recently he claimed not to remember ever hitting me either so I don't know what to think. It's easily plausible either way. I do like rough sex so it's entirely possible he could have been confused. After this incident I'm never having sex with anyone again without a safe word. So I understand it's not exactly a constructive way to deal with the situation if it was indeed rape, I wouldn't consider calling him a rapist verbally abusive. But if he didn't then it would be very very much abusive. There's just so much grey area here that I'm not sure what to think. I suppose it doesn't really matter much because it's one of those things I'll never know for sure and I know either way I've been abusive on more than one occasion and I didn't handle the situation in a healthy way. I'd do things differently if I could. I also wish I could get some clarity on this incident too but I don't think that will ever happen.

[Perna]

Abuse takes having one person "trapped" (a child) and one person in a superior, more powerful position (a parent). That I have had a rough, abusive childhood and cry when someone calls me a name does not make name calling by an equal/partner/adult, abuse. Abusers are a form of bully; the dynamics are unequal. You, Bodiesneverfound, and your partner do not appear to be unequal other than physically, allowing for sexual abuse also. If you call him names and he calls you names, you each stay and put up with that by "choice", not superior force.

Calling a rapist a rapist is not abusive name calling. The truth may hurt but that does not make it abuse.

[Gr3tta]

Bodiesneverfound-I do believe this is a situation where there was possible confusion about whether you were genuinely declining the specific sexual activity. Nothing ever gives another person the right to force themself on you. However, you do put your partner in an unfair position if you expect them to read your behavior, or guess how you are feeling. Especially in a role playing situation, where you are acting and behaving differently than you normally would.
I whole-heartedly agree there should be absolutely no rough or role play sexual activity w/o clear safe words. Frankly, I think some things need resolution before sex at all. I am also so glad to hear you are working on helping yourself with or without him. That is a great attitude!

[Gr3tta]

Perna-calling a rapist a rapist is not abuse-I agree with this 100 absolutely!!! In this particular case I questioned whether the man was clearly informed by words or actions that the other person was saying no. I also do believe that name calling, even amongst equals, and especially accusations and things purposely said to make the other feel bad can definitely be abusive. I believe this due to my personal experiences, as well as my professional training.
I do not mean you any harm in saying so. I do honestly respect your right to disagree with me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Bodiesneverfound]

Originally Posted by Gr3tta

Perna-calling a rapist a rapist is not abuse-I agree with this 100 absolutely!!! In this particular case I questioned whether the man was clearly informed by words or actions that the other person was saying no. I also do believe that name calling, even amongst equals, and especially accusations and things purposely said to make the other feel bad can definitely be abusive. I believe this due to my personal experiences, as well as my professional training.
I do not mean you any harm in saying so. I do honestly respect your right to disagree with me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I have to agree with you on name calling- it's just bad period. Depending on who does it, what the words are, etc it can hurt more or less but it's not acceptable behavior. Also the thing I was going to mention too was that it was my ex's idea not to have safe words. Obviously I'm still responsible for my own safety and I should have balked at that but he talked to me repeatedly about how safe words "were only for people who didn't know each other well enough yet" and that he was glad we didn't need one. I do genuinely think he just got confused- if I didn't I wouldn't ever talk to him again, but he was the one arguing with me about how he knew my body language well enough even though I thought he didn't. I was right in this case. He agreed to having a safe word after the incident but told me he was very sad as he felt we should know each other well enough not to need one. He looks at safe words the same way he looks at couples therapy- if you need it that means the relationship is failing, when in fact being aware of those needs and communicating to your partner about them is actually a sign of a good partnership. A little off topic but he did agree to do couples therapy if I think it's necessary if we decide to get back together. For now I want us to have minimal contact and work on our own issues with our own therapists.

[Bodiesneverfound]

Also just wondering what your thoughts might be- if I call a rapist a rapist then it's not abuse but what if when I called him that I genuinely 100% thought he was but I was wrong? I know it sounds like I'm trying to not take responsibility for myself but I feel like this incident was different than the other times I've been verbally abusive. In all those instances I can say I was completely wrong to say what I did and it was said with malicious intent, but in this case it wasn't like that. I seriously thought he'd raped me so I said it. I meant to confront him about it in a better way and I take responsibility for not doing so but he keeps bringing this incident up and wants me to apologize over and over for it and it doesn't sit right with me. I'm sorry it came out the way it did and I'm sorry that I didn't take responsibility for myself by getting off Ambien and getting a safe word but I'm not sorry for experiencing this as traumatic or for thinking the way I did.

[Gr3tta]

If you made a simple and honest error when you accused him, I don't think I would consider that abuse. I did not understand that was the circumstance in which you said it. I do maintain name calling as abuse in general terms, but not spefically under genuine error.
This whole scenario is difficult. I am glad you are seeking counseling, and I think you are wise to distance yourselves from one another for at least the time being.
It sounds like you have been under so much turmoil. I hope this is the start of some more peaceful times for you.

[nicoleflynn]

The book I recommend to everyone on the planet: THe Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. Stay in therapy!

[Bodiesneverfound]

Originally Posted by Gr3tta

If you made a simple and honest error when you accused him, I don't think I would consider that abuse. I did not understand that was the circumstance in which you said it. I do maintain name calling as abuse in general terms, but not spefically under genuine error.
This whole scenario is difficult. I am glad you are seeking counseling, and I think you are wise to distance yourselves from one another for at least the time being.
It sounds like you have been under so much turmoil. I hope this is the start of some more peaceful times for you.

It was during a fight and I was on Ambien so I don't remember clearly the exact words I used. I know it wasn't how I meant for it to come out but I genuinely did think he had raped me at that point in time. I wanted to confront him sober and give him the benefit of the doubt because I loved him and I was working with my therapist on how to do so in a healthy way. I know it was in the middle of a heated fight (he was drunk and I was on Ambien so I can't remember what started it and as he was drunk his account of things isn't any more reliable than mine) but this had been weighing on me for so long and I just blurted it out and ended up screaming "you raped me" at him because I believed it at the time.
I ran out of the house barefoot in my pjs because the fight was escalating and I was scared because he'd been physically abusive toward me a few weeks prior. I managed to get to my therapist's office and I sobered up from the Ambien, then went back home and he was still drunk and furious and wouldn't listen to me when I tried to explain what I had been talking about. He wanted me to apologize right then and there but at this point I still thought the incident was rape so I refused to do so without discussing it.
Eventually he quit yelling and let me talk and at that point I was calm and I just described why I thought he'd raped me and he told me he didn't remember it but he would never have done such a thing to me. I've been raped in the past and he looked at himself as my protector and was really hurt (understandably) that I would accuse him of all people.
By that night I had already apologized and stated that I wasn't sure or not whether what I'd done was abusive but that I wanted to get help and I wanted to do anything to make amends with him. There was some other stuff going on too at this point (during the same fight I had blurted out that his stepfather had sexually assaulted me a few months ago- I just couldn't keep it in any longer, plus when I had come back from my therapist I asked a family friend to be on call for me in case he got physically abusive because of our past and she told him I said he beat me regularly, even though when I spoke with her I was sober and I know for a fact I never said that).
Within the last month of us dating I had stayed sober, quit Ambien, talked with my psychiatrist and therapist multiple times about the incident, joined a DBT group, set new ground rules with him and said nothing except that I was sorry. Long story short he got verbally abusive with me on a near daily basis and got physically abusive once. Then he found out he wasn't eligible for student loans so I needed to find a job and I found one taking tickets at our university's football games. He thought it was dangerous and said he wouldn't let me take the job. I told him that was unreasonable and controlling. Then he blew up, punched a hole in the wall, backed me into a corner, threatened to hit me and the cops got called. Then he broke up with me.
I know name calling isn't okay and I've owned up to any time I've done it in the past including this- but I honestly did think that he had raped me. I still don't know for certain and I guess that's why I don't know for certain if what I did was abusive or not. It's just tough because that and the fact that I did not tell him about his stepfather (he thought I had robbed him of his chance to take action against his stepfather and that me not telling him about it for months was a violation of trust on the level of cheating) were the main reasons he left me and I know we'll need to talk about it but I feel like this incident was different than the other times I was verbally abusive.
We've been able to talk about the problem with his stepfather and he actually listened intently to me and apologized for being selfish instead of trying to understand my side of things, but tackling this rape accusation issue seems like it's going to be harder. Either way I would need him to understand I wasn't just trying to start/win fights- I'd been bothered by this for months but was too scared to bring it up. I had nightmares about it daily, I couldn't enjoy sex with him anymore, sometimes I didn't even want him to touch me, and I felt scared all the time. It wasn't some random *****y thing I said- whether it was rape or not that incident was traumatizing to me and the Ambien killed my brain mouth filter.
Sorry that was so long winded... it's just really bothering me and there's a lot of messed up stuff that happened between him and me that I'm trying to process right now.

[Bodiesneverfound]

Originally Posted by nicoleflynn

The book I recommend to everyone on the planet: THe Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. Stay in therapy!

Thanks, I'm still working my way through the book. It's tough to read sometimes. If my ex didn't do some of those things then my other ex or my family did. But I can really relate to it and it hits home for me.