Be careful with twelve steps

rwither1 · Dec 04, 2014 at 10:45 AM

Hi family,

I've been a card carrying member of NA for almost 10 years. Over that time, I've learned to be both appreciative but also cautious about 12 step programs. In theory they are wonderful. But when you get right down to it, the programs are run by sick humans with no professional training. While this is not by definition a problem, it can be, as not everyone goes into the rooms for the most noble of reasons. Many people prey on newcomers - this is called 13 stepping. You know, sleep with the new girl who is vulnerable, that sort of thing. all I'm saying is be cautious. Be hopeful and open minded, but don;t think for a second that it's a miracle organization. It's not. It has helped millions, but it also has something like a 68% failure rate. Find a good sponsor, find a small group of friends, and don;t air your laundry in open groups. 10 years I've been involved. Just saying, be smart. Good luck, Randy

jelly-bean · Dec 05, 2014 at 12:02 AM

Thank You for the information Randy! It's good to know!

Altered Moment · Dec 05, 2014 at 07:42 AM

Twenty year member of AA.

I think the miracle is that a group of sick people can come together with a singleness of purpose and get results. I don't know how you can put a percentage failure rate on it. I don't think there are any reliable statistics.

It is true though. 13 stepping happens. Lots of sick behavior happens. We have to watch out for each other. The town I got sober in many people started in NA and switched to AA because so many in NA were drinking beer and smoking pot and claiming sobriety. Just because someone claims they are working a good program doesn't mean they are a saint. I have seen my share of sick behavior even from guys with many years of sobriety. Even if you have a good sponsor don't expect them to be a saint. We are all human and love, tolerance, and forgiveness is important. We have to protect each other though, especially new women. In my groups the women with time watch out for the new ones like a hawk.

Taylorlynn · Dec 06, 2014 at 05:38 AM

I think communicating with online chat rooms is just as sick, if not more then a group of people with similar addictions, similar experiences, to talk amongst one another and not find differences. It is a strong suggestion to seek outside help, so you get to feel apart, not unique, and then voice it over with a professional if you choose. The success ratio, is far less then 68 percent, more like 28, that is what makes the program a challenge, but rewarding if you do exactly as they suggest.

Altered Moment · Dec 06, 2014 at 08:26 AM

I think he said the failure rate is 68%. Even though there have been a few studies and surveys I don't think there are any reliable statistics at all. there is no way to know the success or failure rate.

And how do you define failure. Is someone who goes to 4 or 5 meetings and never comes back considered part of the failure rate. Someone who goes for a year to get the wife of his back. Someone who goes but never does any of the work. How do you define it???

hamster-bamster · Dec 12, 2014 at 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I think he said the failure rate is 68%. Even though there have been a few studies and surveys I don't think there are any reliable statistics at all. there is no way to know the success or failure rate.

And how do you define failure. Is someone who goes to 4 or 5 meetings and never comes back considered part of the failure rate. Someone who goes for a year to get the wife of his back. Someone who goes but never does any of the work. How do you define it???

+ some people are court-ordered to go. You cannot compute any stats unless every single person goes on his own volition, and not court-ordered, pressured by family, etc. Or, at least, studies should separate people who go on their own volition from people who were court-ordered to go.

emgreen · Dec 13, 2014 at 01:13 PM

I've been in meetings where half of the people there were there because of a "nudge from a judge." Ham Bam is right about that stat. There are also folks who use AA to get sober & then stay sober despite the fact they stopped attending meetings. As zinco pointed out, stats are slippery. For the record, I've got quite a few 24 hours in, but I still attend AA meetings because they help with attitude as well as sobriety.

rwither1 · Dec 15, 2014 at 11:46 PM

I guess i should clarify. What i'm trying to say is that there are risks associated with any program. some people go cold turkey. That did not work for me but for some it does. If NA or AA works for you, then by all means keep doing it. It's just that some people can be awfully naive and others can be awfully predatory, which is not a good combination.

And I'm not sure there is anything sick about people talking to one another in a chat room. I'm not sure I see the downside to that, especially on a moderated forum like this. Sick is probably not the right word at all... And yes, I said 68% failure rate, but of course there are three types of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Altered Moment · Dec 16, 2014 at 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwither1

I guess i should clarify. What i'm trying to say is that there are risks associated with any program. some people go cold turkey. That did not work for me but for some it does. If NA or AA works for you, then by all means keep doing it. It's just that some people can be awfully naive and others can be awfully predatory, which is not a good combination.

And I'm not sure there is anything sick about people talking to one another in a chat room. I'm not sure I see the downside to that, especially on a moderated forum like this. Sick is probably not the right word at all... And yes, I said 68% failure rate, but of course there are three types of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

But even the statistics that do exist are not reliable at all. And it would really depend on how you define failure.

You are right though. Sick behavior goes on. We experienced members have to watch out for new members, especially new women.

Mary20 · Dec 19, 2014 at 12:26 PM

I agree that the 12 steps can be helpful especially if you're new to sobriety, but that is also when you can be most susceptible to those who might prey on you. do whatever works for you.

Mygrandjourney · Dec 30, 2014 at 12:18 PM

Finding a healthy and functional meeting is key and it may take several tries to find the right one. Many who attend are desperate and lonely and being among others who "get it" can be liberating and the temptation for 13 stepping is always present. Maintaining healthy boundaries and reminding oneself about what the program is really for can be helpful.

freespirit37 · Feb 08, 2015 at 02:08 AM

I was a victim of a 13th-stepper, though it didn't hurt me all that much. I didn't have much feeling for him and I broke it off after a month at the recommendation of my sponsor.

There are a lot of things about AA that annoy me but I keep going because if I stop, then eventually I will end up drinking again and that would be worse than anything I experience at AA.

In any group, you will find good people and bad people. Predators are everywhere, they are in your neighborhood, in your church, at your job, walking down the street. You have to get smart and learn what the red flags are, listen to your gut, and make boundaries. And it's nearly impossible to do that if you are drinking or using.

So - AA is not perfect but it's helping me to stay sober, and introduced me to some really good people - those are the people I choose to focus on, not the bad ones.

angelicgoldfish05 · Feb 08, 2015 at 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwither1

Many people prey on newcomers - this is called 13 stepping. You know, sleep with the new girl who is vulnerable, that sort of thing.

This is what happened to me.
Thanks for the post Randy, and the reminder to protect myself and be cautious.

Nicky123 · Jun 09, 2015 at 03:43 PM

I agree with Randy...it is wise to be very careful in these rooms. There are a lot of sick people around who are predators. Personally, I think AA is great for someone starting on their journey towards sobriety but not forever, as I believe it can stunt our growth. I was completely brainwashed for years, listening to the same thing over and over, and, I was afraid to think for myself. Bill Wilson said AA is 'a bridge to normal living'. When I asked a question of a member, I was told to 'stop talking and start listening'!!!! I was not a fan of this approach, needless to say. AA has helped millions all over the world and that is just wonderful but it was not for me.

LifeGetsBetter · Aug 14, 2015 at 06:10 PM

I thought I was too smart and too experienced to fall victim to a 13-stepper, but it happened and it happened when I was well past 50 years old and had been sober for many years. It can happen to anyone who is feeling vulnerable. All-in-all though, AA worked for me and has somehow kept me sober. For someone who does not believe in the supernatural, i.e. god, I have been fortunate with the program of alcoholics anonymous.

Heather Unbalanced · Aug 16, 2015 at 10:17 PM

i have a close family member who is an alcoholic. thinking of talking to her about aa.
im sorry to hear about your experiences.
ive researched that there are "women only" meetings.
with that in mind, was -taking advantage of new woman- the only problem youve encountered?
i do hope you are well.
we in this group need to be good for one another.

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jelly-bean Magnate Member Since Aug 2012 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,564 11 976 hugs given	Dec 05, 2014 at 12:02 AM #2 Thank You for the information Randy! It's good to know!
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Mary20 New Member Member Since Dec 2014 Location: midwest Posts: 6 9	Dec 19, 2014 at 12:26 PM #10 I agree that the 12 steps can be helpful especially if you're new to sobriety, but that is also when you can be most susceptible to those who might prey on you. do whatever works for you.
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Mygrandjourney Veteran Member Member Since Nov 2014 Location: Denver Posts: 567 9 30 hugs given	Dec 30, 2014 at 12:18 PM #11 Finding a healthy and functional meeting is key and it may take several tries to find the right one. Many who attend are desperate and lonely and being among others who "get it" can be liberating and the temptation for 13 stepping is always present. Maintaining healthy boundaries and reminding oneself about what the program is really for can be helpful.
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Heather Unbalanced Member Member Since Jul 2014 Location: New Jersey Posts: 87 9 72 hugs given	Aug 16, 2015 at 10:17 PM #16 i have a close family member who is an alcoholic. thinking of talking to her about aa. im sorry to hear about your experiences. ive researched that there are "women only" meetings. with that in mind, was -taking advantage of new woman- the only problem youve encountered? i do hope you are well. we in this group need to be good for one another.
	Reply With Quote