Can a pagan go to AA?

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
for those who find the steps a little hard to take...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I found the steps hard to take at first. Luckily I was desperate enought to go to any lengths. If they had told me to stand on my head in the middle of a busy intersection and I'd stay sober, I would have done it. That's how badly I hurt.

The higher power thing is still an issue for me. Sometimes I think that my higher power is simply my concience....do the next right thing, etc. I mean really, if you replace God in the steps with conscience, it still works, if I believe that my conscience is the unbiased pure side of me that has the power to direct my thinking. It's when I doubt myself and my conscience that a supernatural "something" is easier to rely on. But...there's no kind of proof that that exists, so it's a constant struggle for me, since I'm very scientifically oriented. Sometimes I want irrefutable proof that there is a "power greater than myself" so my conscience just makes more sense. Honestly I don't know what I believe half the time, so it changes constantly. For me, that's the beauty of the steps. It isn't set in stone. Just because it's written in black and white doesn't mean I have to follow it exactly. It can bend and change according to my needs and feelings. And it's kept me sober for going on 14 months now. Sober and HAPPY. I'm definetely not one to shove the program down anyone's throat though, that's for sure. I can recommend it and that's as far as I'll go. If someone is sober and happy by doing it another way, GREAT!!!! The point is, that however you do it, you CAN do it.

congradulations on close to 14 months!!!!!

well done :-)

i'm glad you found something that worked for you,
is working for you
that is wonderful, a wonderful thing indeed
and i wouldn't want to take that away from you
that is an acomplishment indeed
something to be really proud of
well done you :-)

sounds like you have adapted the steps in a way that makes sense for you and your beliefs.
different chapters vary on how much you are supposed to do things by the book...
and how much you should take what works and leave the rest.
but sounds like you are doing well with what you are doing.

people are people...
there are people who say things that help
there are people who say things that harm
from all over the place.

i just like to put in a word for rational recovery for people who are thinking aa / na is the only way.

and i like to put in a word for the brights for people who struggle with the 'higher power' concept and think they are alone in that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_Recovery

http://www.rational.org/faq.html

oh dear that last one is a bit hard for me to palate...

sigh.

surely there must be a middle ground???

;-)

if it works...
run with it methinks ;-)

everyone has to find their own path...

From what i understand about ret is it forces you to rethink., Is that true. Do not should on yourself.

Thank you for posting the site. It is I thought it has you change your thinking.

Well...

One could say that aa / na forces you to believe in a higher power...

Take what works I say.

I have significant problems with both approaches.

But I learned things from both

Then carved my own way

I think... It is about that really...

Thanks for your encouragement special k. I didn't check out those links because I don't want to add to the pot of what I already have in the way of recovery. For me, it's easy for the "crazy committee" to get going in my head, telling me things that push me closer to a drink. So I can't cloud what already works for me with other suggestions. I'm glad that you have found what works for you!!!

I can agree with that what ever works. as always

Sigh. The organization causes you to learn to rely upon... who? Yourself or the higher power?

For me, both. Just relying on myself wasn't enough.

I think that 'higher power' serves as a crutch that will ultimately enable individuals to learn to trust in themselves. I see it as a means of restoring power to the individual so they can rely on themseves. It might not be eveyrone's cup of tea, but then again it's worth a try. After all, as long as it works...

Hmm, I like that. Hadn't thought of it that way.

Only requirement for AA membership is the desire to stop drinking.
If anyone would have told me I needed to believe in a God and one religion when I was introduced to AA I would have never gone.
mlyn

My half brother always tells me that when he goes to meetings he takes what he can from them and leaves the rest. (As far as what he doesn't agree with). I have been to al-anon meetings and also to other meetings where they say a prayer afterwards, and I see a few people sit that part out. Not everyone is going to have the same beliefs, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Best Wishes,
Zen

=)

People in the program that take what they need at the time they are in the program, Is depending on where they are in the program. The point of your understanding is determined by the time you are in. They way you understand something changes as you grow in the program. IE the point you are at today is not where you are going to be in a few days and even moreso in the coming years. My understanding of the program when I came in I had a level of what I understood I write in my big book I started when I first started I wrote down in the margins my undersatnding and every 5 years i get a new big book so I can write into it. I am also able to see my groth in the program and how I deal with things. after all AA is a program of change.

i dropped out 'cause i couldn't do the first step.
my chapter was rather literalist...
actually... it was the treatment centre that was rather literalist.

i did not admit i was powerless over my addiction.
or... once they got me that far...
i did not believe in a higher power to save me
(hence all was lost and I'd vaccilate back to not admitting I was powerless)

IMO

GOING to the darned meeting...

It isn't a choice between 'this is so easy I don't have a problem' and 'I am completely powerless'. There must be a middle way. And for those of us who don't believe in a higher power to save us we need to rely more on ourself and on other people too.

Your conception of your higher power has to come into line with something like the concept of omni-god as you work the steps (sorry for singling out christianity there it is also consistent with the god of judaism and islam).

what really gets to me...

is the steps...
the program consists in the steps...
the steps require omni-god...
and hence when people are required to go to the programs by law

it is state funded religion (in the sense that the state is forcing people to go)

i don't think that religion should be part of the program
or
i think there should be fully secular alternatives

RR is one alternative. i only advocate it because it is secular.

Ok... see? This is why I am where I'm at with what I think about AA. I don't wish to bash it...because I know it is exactly what some ppl can use to get better.

But...just by reading the above posts...can you see my thoughts too? Can you see why I'm confused somewhat?

Again, nothing AGAINST AA...

From a Christian perspective (MINE)... I can do NOTHING. I can do nothing without my God's doing, help. (ok..I see that in AA... powerless against the addiction) but then it appears that you some how pick the "burden" (?) of the addiction to battle on your own.

We learn in studying the Bible that if we take something to God, it is faith that leaves it there, and trust the God can handle it, and will do so that gives us power...HIS power over it. If we take our burdens to the Lord, and then pick them back up when we're finished praying, we are not trusting in Him.

Is that what they mean by taking it back (the ??? of the addiction?)

In the steps one states god of my understanding.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
it is state funded religion (in the sense that the state is forcing people to go)

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

AA is self-supporting. It's the treatment centers that are state funded. AA has no control over what the treatment centers practice. Often times they use the steps, but they force the patients to do them their - the treatment center's - way.

Rainbowzz,

Regarding your origional question I suspect you would be welcomed and might even become comfortable at AA, since as you say you believe in some higher power. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone.

The inculcation of missinformation there starts almost immediately with lies following lies on top of lies. I personally have experienced sever browbeating to accept some higher power I don't believe in, came to believe the 12 step got in the way of skills training that might actually help and got real tired of the continuous harping on alcohol and drug problems instead of teaching solutions to life problems.

I was there to find help to overcome problems from growing up with an alcoholic mother and unavailable father. I believe superstitions and missinformation is far greater a threat to people than truth, AA wouldn't know truth if it ruled against them in court as has happened many times http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/alcohol.htm. AA has been ruled a religion. I prefer the word cult (although having had lots of members at least temporarally is the cheif difference between the two), as does Devin Sexton on his essay: Mind Control Tactics of Alcoholic Anonymous http://www.morerevealed.com/dev_art.jsp
Where he says -

"Having been a member of AA for many years, I have a different view of it. I consider the program of Alcoholics Anonymous a destructive cult that uses all methods of mind-control tactics for the specific purposes of incorporating its members into a belief system that demolishes their individuality, crushes their independence, and creates numerous psychologically damaging side effects."

Ster,
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
People in the program that take what they need at the time they are in the program, Is depending on where they are in the program. The point of your understanding is determined by the time you are in. They way you understand something changes as you grow in the program. IE the point you are at today is not where you are going to be in a few days and even moreso in the coming years. My understanding of the program when I came in I had a level of what I understood I write in my big book I started when I first started I wrote down in the margins my undersatnding and every 5 years i get a new big book so I can write into it. I am also able to see my groth in the program and how I deal with things. after all AA is a program of change.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

- the more you expose yourself to brainwashing the more brainwashed you get, would discribe my perspective of what you said.

http://www.morerevealed.com/kirton.jsp see my some links for more info. if interested.

~Down

You can say or think anything you want. I know a lot of people would have died had it not been for the AA program. You have something that helps you. That is good. the sites you have linked is someones opinion.