[Demon]

I found an interesting article that indicates psychopaths do not lack empathy at all. They can feel it, but not automatically like non-psychopaths. They can genuinely feel empathy when they actually want to.

Here is a link to the article: Brain research shows psychopathic criminals do not lack empathy, but fail to use it automatically

[HealingNSuffering]

Usually after the damage has been done the empathy happens. There have been tragedies that happened to family members and they didn't make me feel anything until I was all alone. I felt a slight sense of empathy in private. Empathy is a learned trait, we aren't born with it.

[here today]

I can identify with this kind of situation somewhat.

I was diagnosed 3 years ago with PDNOS, probably had OCPD before everything broke down. I dissociated from some feelings at an early age. Without them in my usual conscious self, I could not empathize very well, or automatically, with others having those feelings. Therapy for trauma has helped me reconnect things but it has not been easy.

[ocdwifeofsociopath]

I think a lot of that has to do with the degree of the disorder in the person. I don't necessarily think that the areas of brain used to "empathize" mean that person feels empathy. I am obviously not an expert, but I would think that sympathy and empathy are the same area of the brain and what is really going on is a conscious thought process about being able to understand the situation by placing yourself in that person's shoes rather than actual empathy which, in my understanding, is the ability to feel what that person is going through along with them. I think the reason ASPD and psychopaths are incapable of feeling empathy is because somewhere along the route of that area of brain to the heart there is that lack of connection in the wiring so to speak. As my husband has struggled to explain to me, he can have that conscious thought in his head, but he can't feel it. like the I do think some people are born with empathy, but I do also agree for some it is learned. I do also think that sociopaths/psychopaths can use the fact that they can use that area of brain to better themselves in social relations even though they don't feel it.

[Atypical_Disaster]

This has some interesting implications. Goes to show you that psychopaths might not be so different from the rest of humanity as people would like to think!

So if this theory turns out to be true, the issue would be more how psychopaths use empathy rather than them being incapable of it all together.

[derangedunit]

all emotions can be learned from a purely logical perspective(well love still makes no bloody sense but attachment/dependency translates just fine so i'm pretty sure most people just have no clue what it is themselves). watch someone else experiencing the same emotion over and over. keep down your feelings of disgust... or use them, trying to feel sadness tell yourself over and over you are sad that you have to look at this. eventually when you watch and copy these things for long enough that they become automatic it is like actually having them, it even becomes difficult to separate it. you can force your body to simulate all sorts of things, want to feel empathy.... pump your body full of estrogen, you will feel horrible for quite a while, stress... clenching your butt muscles is enough to fool a polygraph, panic and fear.... start living off of only caffeine and energy drinks focus intently on the concept. in the end it is about focus, why bother focusing on feeling, well sometimes its a survival tool, if it's not i say don't bother..

[IndieVisible]

There is a long going thread about this story in another psych forum that goes no where. The reason for that is most people nons and any of us really have no idea what empathy is. Scientifically speaking, everyone has empathy, some are just better able to express it, some are able to filter it, some are unable to control it. That goes for any disorder and even nons. Science has no explanation why that is. Psychology which really is not a real science attempts to explain why. In psychology it is explained there are two main components of empathy, cognitive and affective. You need both to express and feel empathy, however some people are better in one component more then another. Cognitive is basically the ability to understand and recognize when some one is feeling bad about something and understanding the reason why they are. By doing so you could simulate a possible feeling of what that person is feeling by comparing it to a similar experience you had. This could be accurate or could be inaccurate. People with aspd autism supposedly do better with cognitive because it is believed they really can't totally feel empathy, only understand it at best. Affective is the component that supposedly allows you to actually feel what the other person is feeling. It should be used along with the cognitive component for best results, however people with bipolar and BPD are said to do better with the affective and not so well with the cognitive component. Keep in mind this also effects nons too.
However this is NOT scientific and merely a psychology theory based on nothing but various opinions and no scientific studies, science does not accept any of this. Indeed even in the psychology field none of this can be totally agreed on and if you google the subject you will see gross errors made from bloggers regarding this further spreading inaccuracies.

Here's the bottom line for those truly interested in it. There is no scientific basis to support the two component empathy theory, nor is there any scientific evidence to support the theory that sociopaths and autism do not have empathy. Even in the psychology field there is no agreement to the exact case or meanings. What we do know is this. Some people are better able to identify and express empathy then others, this applies to everyone, nons and those with disorders.

The hallmark for sociopaths have always been there lack of empathy, which certainly can be the case for many but does not need to mean for all or to mean equal level for all, same as nons or anyone. It just happens to be the hallmark for sociopaths.

So every once in a while a story comes along that seems to contradict the psychology theories. It should come as no surprise because psychology is NOT a science but merely philosophy and guess work based on feelings and opinions minus any actual scientific studies. That is why science has never totally taken psychology seriously. Well can you blame them when the father of psychology's break thru book was titled "The Interpretation of Dreams" by Sigmund Freud lol.

Psychology is nothing more then a Pseudoscience at best

[ocdwifeofsociopath]

well, here are the things we do know. In psychology and philosophy, emotion is a subjective, conscious experience that is characterized primarily by psychophysiological expressions, biological reactions, and mental states. Emotion is often associated and considered reciprocally influential with mood, temperament, personality, disposition, and motivation,[citation needed] as well as influenced by hormones and neurotransmitters such as dopamine, noradrenaline, serotonin, oxytocin, cortisol and GABA. Wikipedia) Empathy is an emotion. the brain makes the body respond with emotions. They are linked. I think, there is a break there in psychopaths/sociopaths. Here's a link, I don't know if it's valid. I don't have time to do any more research right now. But if this "new research" is true, I think this is an indication of what we are discussing. Psychopathy linked to brain abnormalities | KurzweilAI

[derangedunit]

oops i had to remove the links in this message because i'm a "new member" so there are a few gaps:

the loss of brain volume is an effect not cause,

ok so i just clicked the first google link because i'm lazy... and this isn't really the type of forum where people are interested in learning that they are causing themselves massive brain damage. neuroleptics cause parts of the brain to shrink, atypical antipsychotics are not only known to be less effective than placebos at treating what they are used for they also kill the reward center of your brain, even after just taking them one time there can be irreversible damage... most often not able to be realized until symptoms start developing months or years later(the most common being tourettes like symptoms)

i'm new to this forum so if it is customary to give citations to all discussed topics i will change my habit otherwise if someone is curious about a specific thing, they can pm me and i will make attempt to re-find my original source.

oh and what IndieVisible said yes all studies that cant be proven through the scientific method are pseudoscience at best.... something akin to religion at worst.... but seeing as there are strict laws regarding human testing i doubt we will see much crossover, well not that becomes public knowledge anyway.

[jeppys]

i am completely able to turn my empathy on and off. when i killed or tortured animals as a child, i would switch my empathy on after the deed was done and feel what the animal felt, the terror, pain etc. this would send me into a crying hysteria that caused me to hate myself even more. when i grew wiser of what was happening, that pattern ended. in my adulthood i would occasionally put myself in someones shoes to see what they felt like in order to figure out why i shouldn't do certain things. i do that sparingly because i don't like negative feelings. on a day to day basis i use cold empathy. i have refined this skill to such an extent that people cannot hide from me. i always know how everyone is feeling and i can't have it any other way. predictability is number one.

The article is interesting. Switching empathy on and off, what a handy tool that would be.

[Ban3 El3mental]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

This has some interesting implications. Goes to show you that psychopaths might not be so different from the rest of humanity as people would like to think!

So if this theory turns out to be true, the issue would be more how psychopaths use empathy rather than them being incapable of it all together.

Nope we don't .
Watching someone on fire in front of me didn't bother me , just a poker face , many stuff happened like this but i'd rather not mention it , cause i know it will scare this hell outa of you .

Some people doesn't wanna hear this but this is who we are , or at least this is me ..

[Ban3 El3mental]

Originally Posted by derangedunit

all emotions can be learned from a purely logical perspective(well love still makes no bloody sense but attachment/dependency translates just fine so i'm pretty sure most people just have no clue what it is themselves). watch someone else experiencing the same emotion over and over. keep down your feelings of disgust... or use them, trying to feel sadness tell yourself over and over you are sad that you have to look at this. eventually when you watch and copy these things for long enough that they become automatic it is like actually having them, it even becomes difficult to separate it. you can force your body to simulate all sorts of things, want to feel empathy.... pump your body full of estrogen, you will feel horrible for quite a while, stress... clenching your butt muscles is enough to fool a polygraph, panic and fear.... start living off of only caffeine and energy drinks focus intently on the concept. in the end it is about focus, why bother focusing on feeling, well sometimes its a survival tool, if it's not i say don't bother..

Hmmm , nope , there is no such thing for us as sadness , seriously , i don't know what is that , seen people ofcourse telling me before they are sad , telling me the reason bla bla bla , but i've never experienced it myself . your logic is wrong in many ways

[Ban3 El3mental]

Originally Posted by jeppys

i am completely able to turn my empathy on and off. when i killed or tortured animals as a child, i would switch my empathy on after the deed was done and feel what the animal felt, the terror, pain etc. this would send me into a crying hysteria that caused me to hate myself even more. when i grew wiser of what was happening, that pattern ended. in my adulthood i would occasionally put myself in someones shoes to see what they felt like in order to figure out why i shouldn't do certain things. i do that sparingly because i don't like negative feelings. on a day to day basis i use cold empathy. i have refined this skill to such an extent that people cannot hide from me. i always know how everyone is feeling and i can't have it any other way. predictability is number one.

I don't know how you're doing this , but i never did .
I used to cut birds before when i was 7, take 'em out of the cage, dismiss every part then set 'em on fire , was funny actually but that's not the point , the point is i never cried or anythin' , i tried to imagine what it feels but i got nothin' . maybe a smile to be honest ...

[IndieVisible]

Originally Posted by Ban3 El3mental

I don't know how you're doing this , but i never did .
I used to cut birds before when i was 7, take 'em out of the cage, dismiss every part then set 'em on fire , was funny actually but that's not the point , the point is i never cried or anythin' , i tried to imagine what it feels but i got nothin' . maybe a smile to be honest ...

There is avast spectrum for empathy. A lot of people even NORMs have some trouble with empathy, for others with some disorders even more trouble with empathy. Some claim they can turn it off or on, there is no reason to doubt that because we are talking about a wide spectrum here.

The definition of empathy is it is made up of two parts to equal true empathy.
Cognitive: the ability to understand it, and affective: the ability to actually feel how the other person feels. Most ASPD and NARCS have cognitive, as do most people. It's simply the intelligence to recognize some one is in pain and understand why they are in pain.

So it's very possible if this two part theory is correct for any one to have a problem with either components or both to no fault of their own. A person with very good cognitive can even simulate the feeling without actually feeling it, if they wanted too. And many ASPD will do that for their children or some times spouse. Caring is a option.

Forget Freud. We've made huge advances since his "Book of Dreams". Recent studies suggest there are actually 2 sub-levels if sociopaths. And the second sub-level is believed to feel some empathy. Also interesting according to the DSM5 they now add trouble with empathy with borderlines, joining ASPD and NPD.

Personally I believe any thing is possible, the key for sociopaths will center around bonding. If they can bond to some one it opens the path for conscience and empathy.

I'll just hide behind Indie's answers as far as the empirical knowledge goes! It sounds pretty solid & well thought-out.

As far as my subjective experience... My ability to utilize it comes & goes. Mostly goes! Most of the time, I'm able to sort out what someone is feeling well enough to give really solid advice which makes me someone reliable & dependable to have around. But sometimes it's like my radar's been disconnected -- I lose my footing & completely cannot comprehend what they could possibly be going through.

I don't actually feel anything for anyone, however. Any actual knowledge of their states only comes when I try to intellectually relate to it through past experience. Have I ever been in that position? Would that bother me? Sometimes it really does. Things like not having money or dealing with bothersome people... And I give socially appropriate consolations. I can actually feel it a little bit but from a distant perspective.

But most of the time I can't actually relate to it. Extended feelings of sadness, grief, loss, resentment, altruism... None of that computes to me. I can observe & observe all I like, but that stuff just doesn't make any sense! I can't feel it, so I can't imagine it existing almost. Self-centric but that's just how it is.

But that's just my POV. I don't think I'm a psychopath, really, though I can identify with a lot of traits.

[Ban3 El3mental]

Originally Posted by IndieVisible

There is avast spectrum for empathy. A lot of people even NORMs have some trouble with empathy, for others with some disorders even more trouble with empathy. Some claim they can turn it off or on, there is no reason to doubt that because we are talking about a wide spectrum here.

The definition of empathy is it is made up of two parts to equal true empathy.
Cognitive: the ability to understand it, and affective: the ability to actually feel how the other person feels. Most ASPD and NARCS have cognitive, as do most people. It's simply the intelligence to recognize some one is in pain and understand why they are in pain.

So it's very possible if this two part theory is correct for any one to have a problem with either components or both to no fault of their own. A person with very good cognitive can even simulate the feeling without actually feeling it, if they wanted too. And many ASPD will do that for their children or some times spouse. Caring is a option.

Forget Freud. We've made huge advances since his "Book of Dreams". Recent studies suggest there are actually 2 sub-levels if sociopaths. And the second sub-level is believed to feel some empathy. Also interesting according to the DSM5 they now add trouble with empathy with borderlines, joining ASPD and NPD.

Personally I believe any thing is possible, the key for sociopaths will center around bonding. If they can bond to some one it opens the path for conscience and empathy.

I've a child , she's a lil child , 4 months old to be exact , there is no real connection actually , i always i fake everythin' around her mom , my wife who doesn't know anythin' about me , but the min her mom walks out the door , i stop and start doin' somethin' else , i don't care .

i mean for the child when i think about what if someone harass her later when she gets old i feel rage , i know from my observation that means we care . but i don't know really what is that , and the feeling i get when about this stuff is rage only , i mean i didn't feel somethin' new , like caring .
Basically i know / experience few feeling on regular basis like rage , anger . excited ( nor sure if that name fits , it's when i hurt / manipulate someone or burn stuff ) vengeful .
So basically if i experienced the caring feel i wouldn't know what it that but i'll defiantly know that's somethin' new .

Yesterday i read somewhere here that i should be try to feel sad , i should tell myself am sad fake a feeling until i really get it , this is nonsense
1- I've already faked everythin' on a regular basis with my child , didn't work
2- Really , the 1st feelin' you wanna give a psychopath is sadness , dunno how you imagined or said that , but trust me when i say , if we experienced the sadness , that feeling when people say they are sad for bla bla bla , add this to the most common feeling that psychopaths have which is rage , you'll create a serial killer , it's already enough for us to feel the rage with our lack of empathy .

[IndieVisible]

I don't see how "making" you feel some thing can help. You'd be faking it. Honestly all research and studies show bonding is the key! Once a person is able to bond to somebody, anybody, it opens the path for caring, empathy, conscience. They have shown this happens to even the most harden sociopath criminals in prison. Those who bond to some one, a friend, begin to express regret for what they have done, it also opens up caring and empathy. That's all conscience is. A moral compass of right or wrong, and caring about it. There is also studies that suggest sociopaths mellow out as they get older too. If some one wants to change they really can, it's a long road though and I would also recommend therapy. Good luck to you!

[RogueWolf]

Originally Posted by ocdwifeofsociopath

well, here are the things we do know. In psychology and philosophy, emotion is a subjective, conscious experience that is characterized primarily by psychophysiological expressions, biological reactions, and mental states. Emotion is often associated and considered reciprocally influential with mood, temperament, personality, disposition, and motivation,[citation needed] as well as influenced by hormones and neurotransmitters such as dopamine, noradrenaline, serotonin, oxytocin, cortisol and GABA. Wikipedia) Empathy is an emotion. the brain makes the body respond with emotions. They are linked. I think, there is a break there in psychopaths/sociopaths. Here's a link, I don't know if it's valid. I don't have time to do any more research right now. But if this "new research" is true, I think this is an indication of what we are discussing. Psychopathy linked to brain abnormalities | KurzweilAI

wrong empathy is not 'an emotion' empathy is emotion for others, people get empathy and emotion mixed up and it's stupid thing to do. There is nothing anywhere that ever suggested that physcopaths do not feel emotion but dumb people confuse empathy with emotion and generalise that physcopath
s have no emotion which is stupid and totally false, no being can exsist without emotion and noone would bother to kill or harm anyone unless they had emotions- there would be no point. Physcopaths can have a lack of empathy but do not lack emotion at all, in fact they can probably feel more emotion than average people which explains physcopaths who kill for power, thrills,sexual release or other emotion based reasons

[ocdwifeofsociopath]

Originally Posted by RogueWolf

wrong empathy is not 'an emotion' empathy is emotion for others, people get empathy and emotion mixed up and it's stupid thing to do. There is nothing anywhere that ever suggested that physcopaths do not feel emotion but dumb people confuse empathy with emotion and generalise that physcopath
s have no emotion which is stupid and totally false, no being can exsist without emotion and noone would bother to kill or harm anyone unless they had emotions- there would be no point. Physcopaths can have a lack of empathy but do not lack emotion at all, in fact they can probably feel more emotion than average people which explains physcopaths who kill for power, thrills,sexual release or other emotion based reasons

I agree that psychopaths/sociopaths have emotion. I did not elude to them not having any at all. I will put my point in different words starting with the definition of empathy based on Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online.
em·pa·thy noun \ˈem-pə-thē\

: the feeling that you understand and share another person's experiences and emotions : the ability to share someone else's feelings

EasyBib
Full Definition of EMPATHY

1

: the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it

2

: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this
So yes, one could argue that empathy itself is not an emotion. However, when you are empathizing, you are feeling what the other person feels. That makes emotion a necessary component of empathy. I think that sociopaths/psychopaths can understand and comprehend what someone is feeling based on previous experiences and what they have been told is the explanation of the feeling, but can not experience it with them. I also think the latter part of that is only on a logical understanding of the definition based on understanding of the language, but not on a personal level of experience if it is something they have not experienced. For example; if they have never experienced the pain of being betrayed, they would not "know" what it was like because they would only have the definition to rely on rather than experiencing the actual feeling. You can put together pieces of what a color is when someone says the color coral looks like a bit of red mixed with a bit of pink and kinda peach like. You know what all those colors are, and you can "imagine" what coral must look like based on that, but it's not the full picture and not accurate until you see the actual color, coral. I also think that because the comprehension is there, but not the feelings, there is something missing in the "link". This may be related to bonding. I'm not a psychiatrist, just theorizing on what makes sense to me.

[RogueWolf]

Originally Posted by ocdwifeofsociopath

I agree that psychopaths/sociopaths have emotion. I did not elude to them not having any at all. I will put my point in different words starting with the definition of empathy based on Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online.
em·pa·thy noun \ˈem-pə-thē\

: the feeling that you understand and share another person's experiences and emotions : the ability to share someone else's feelings

EasyBib
Full Definition of EMPATHY

1

: the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it

2

: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this
So yes, one could argue that empathy itself is not an emotion. However, when you are empathizing, you are feeling what the other person feels. That makes emotion a necessary component of empathy. I think that sociopaths/psychopaths can understand and comprehend what someone is feeling based on previous experiences and what they have been told is the explanation of the feeling, but can not experience it with them. I also think the latter part of that is only on a logical understanding of the definition based on understanding of the language, but not on a personal level of experience if it is something they have not experienced. For example; if they have never experienced the pain of being betrayed, they would not "know" what it was like because they would only have the definition to rely on rather than experiencing the actual feeling. You can put together pieces of what a color is when someone says the color coral looks like a bit of red mixed with a bit of pink and kinda peach like. You know what all those colors are, and you can "imagine" what coral must look like based on that, but it's not the full picture and not accurate until you see the actual color, coral. I also think that because the comprehension is there, but not the feelings, there is something missing in the "link". This may be related to bonding. I'm not a psychiatrist, just theorizing on what makes sense to me.

That makes emotion a necessary component of empathy. well said my point exactly, you hit the nail on the head- the problem comes in when people over generalise. Emotion is a component of.... so a part of empathy but empathy isn't 'an emotion'. I like how you said that it is exactly what I was trying to get at thank you