[la90]

Hi Guys,

Kind of didn't know what to put as the title so I thought that would do, I've only just joined and basically did because I am worried about someone who I've known for a long time and is one of my closest friends apologies this could be quite long, I'm posting in here because I think it's probably the most appropriate because if he had any potential disorder I'd describe it based on the NDSM checklist he ticks a number of the boxes. I suppose I'm kind of wondering if he really fits the description of someone who could be clinically diagnosed with APD or "sociopathy" although sociopathy seems to be being used less and less. I won't mention names or anything for a number of reasons I'm sure you can imagine, so will just refer to him by his gender/he or as my friend ha, I've known him for a number of years and went to school with him for my final years of high school, he's always been rather quiet and I suppose cold too, he's not really approachable unless he wants to appear that way or from what I have seen anyway, we joined a new school at the same time together but he didn't know anyone and I did have a few friends at the school so I wasn't as much of a stranger to everyone as he was, he would talk to everyone but there would be basically just me and another his two best friends that he would actually seem like he'd want to talk to I think everyone else it was kind of he'd interact with them fine but he would have no real care for what they were doing or whatever he'd do the chit chat and all that but I don't think he really gave a toss to talk to anyone. From the classes we had together he always basically had a problem I'd say with authority and he enjoyed being what I'd describe as a "smart *****" as soon as a teacher had something wrong he'd be the first to tell them they were almost to just prove he was smarter than them or everyone else (in history class he did it often if teachers described a series of events like the Russian revolution or WW2 wrong he'd get almost enjoyment out of correcting them one of the few times he'd make a sound in class). He was always very intelligent but there were some things he'd do far better than me in like history or english but then would barely pass maths because he hated it he'd do enough to barely pass but that was it and the ones he'd enjoy he'd get distinctions and the highest marks (which I remember finding annoying lol). This probably doesn't sound very I suppose profile of a sociopath but that's more the background I suppose or a little bit, from what he did at school basically he felt little remorse for what he did, once he basically caused a fight between two other people (he'd orchestrated it to get them to fight), and he told me he'd orchestrated it and I asked him why and he basically said because he was bored which I found a little astonishing and then I asked didn't he feel bad about it and his reply was only if the teachers found out and he'd got in trouble, that was basically the theme for all the bad things he did at school whether directly involving me or whether him just telling me things he had done (I seemed to be his confidant) it'd basically be the only time he'd feel guilt would be if he'd gotten caught or the only thing stopping him from doing more would be that he could get caught, it was never that he'd hurt someone or whatever it was just that he could get caught doing it that he cared about. From my long friendship with him he is a compulsive liar, almost to the point where I think it's more natural for him to tell a lie than the truth , he has little problem exaggerating if he thinks it will get a greater reaction or will help him somehow (he's very narcissistic like that, which I thought probably would tie in if he had APD or something like that given most people with sociopathy have a degree of narcissism tied into it). Recently as I've taken the idea of him having a mental disorder more seriously and asking him questions that I try and disguise so that he won't feel a need to lie it's kind of become more worrying to me that he could be, because if he has a conscience it certainly has holes in it he lacks any care or empathy for people he hasn't met, there was a car accident near where I live and I mentioned that to him because I knew one of the people involved and he would have known of the person that died and he shrugged it of as to say "why's that important to me?". I also noticed that he'd only basically hang out with people apart from me and maybe one other regularly if he needed them, kind of if he was having trouble with an assignment like a physics assignment he'd become great friends and be charming to some of the students who were good at physics to help him, one of the subjects he was bad at, then as soon as the assignment was done and they helped him he'd hardly say boo to them for the rest of the year because he didn't need them/they'd helped him. That sort of thing has been what has worried me about him for a long time, he's always had a lack of remorse or guilt or really care for anyone that doesn't involve him or family members (if he upsets his mother from what I can tell he gets legitimately upset and sad that he did and will say he's sorry but he's told me at least twice that he's apologized and everything to her when he didn't mean it because she was upset at him). I've read on APD is that they lack any care for family members so if that's true that rules him out but I've also read there is a real grey area to where some can feel empathy only for family members and close friends rather than most people who would care about everyone they know somewhat.

The most troubling thing with him is that what he would do if there was what he described a world of anarchy, he had a number of bullying issues at school and he basically tolerated it and I asked why he did or how he tolerated it and he said by imagining what I would do to them in a world of anarchy (and he'd insinuate that he'd be fantasizing of well I don't think I have to type it I think it's obvious what he wanted to do). I know of a number of times he has told me he's thought about doing that to people, whenever he faces a problem with someone his first thought is to kll them apparently but he has said he never would because of the fear of getting caught and going to jail which permanently apparently prevents him from doing it but I thought it was rather bad that he'd even think about doing that to people on a regular basis and that more so he didn't care if he did it to them it'd just be that he fears getting caught he cares about (given he's told me some of these things I hazard to think what goes on in his head that he doesn't mention to me). I basically came here because I go to counseling for my own issues still and my counselor basically said about my friend that he to the sounds of it was either a rather cold person or did have a disorder potentially APD but from not meeting him couldn't tell me much more than it sounds like it might be. For some reason I have stayed being friends with him for years basically because he actually can be quite nice (whether he actually is or just makes me believe it I don't know), he will go out of his way to talk to me either online or if he's in the area where I live I think kind of because I'm one of his main friends and I think the rest of his other friends he describes as "mere useful acquaintances" and that I'm one of the few people apart from family that he doesn't try and manipulate (something I haven't mentioned, he manipulates a lot although not to me just others around me in the past I've noticed he does, for example he knew at school the teachers knew he had routine appointments so to get out of certain classes he'd lie and tell the teachers these appointments were at a different time just to avoid subjects he disliked which he tried to deny but I knew he was lying because he'd told me when he used to do it). I suppose I'm really here to basically ask with some of what I have noted above am I jumping the gun with thinking my friend has APD/given he can be extremely nice to people is it just that he's a naturally extroverted person or something like that? And I suppose if he is one is there anything that can be done really? I think part of the reason if he was one was because he does have from what he's said a lot of abandonment issues and had although a very loving mother a verbally abusive father who he has had a number of I'm not sure if they were physical but at the very least verbal altercations if that has scarred him through his childhood and caused his lack of emotional attachment or something? I kind of want to know if he could have APD or something like that is he really my friend after all these years or is he basically selfishly using me as a support network and because he lacks other friends am I basically just there for when he needs me and if he ever made other good friends he could just potentially discard me as a friend?

Anyway I think I have rambled enough lol surprised if anyone is still awake reading it to get to the end, I'm just here looking for answers and kind of hoping that he is just a naturally cold person or naturally slightly vindictive but nothing more haha and I just hope that really he isn't a sociopath or narcissist or anything like that because I suppose if he is would put a different spin on our friendship for one thing ha.

[Mattmx]

Hello, that sure is a long line of text! After reading through, I can definitely see that your friend does have some sociopathic tendencies as well as some narcissistic ones. The thing that strikes me as odd though is that he does seem to care about people as well. Do you think you can go more into depth about his feelings for people he cares about, and why you feel he does? Someone with antisocial personality disorder will have no regard for others feelings, no matter who they are, along with narcissism. I think you might do good reading the difference between the two. I believe I suffer from Antisocial personality disorder (sociopath) and I can tell you that there is a big difference in the mentality between a sociopath and a narcissist.
Here is a link I found helpful when I was doing research:
Narcissist or Sociopath? What's the Difference? | Lisa E. Scott

Please excuse her harsh view on sociopaths and narcissists though, we aren't all out to hurt people only like she makes it seem. I'd love to hear back from you.

[la90]

Originally Posted by Mattmx

Hello, that sure is a long line of text! After reading through, I can definitely see that your friend does have some sociopathic tendencies as well as some narcissistic ones. The thing that strikes me as odd though is that he does seem to care about people as well. Do you think you can go more into depth about his feelings for people he cares about, and why you feel he does? Someone with antisocial personality disorder will have no regard for others feelings, no matter who they are, along with narcissism. I think you might do good reading the difference between the two. I believe I suffer from Antisocial personality disorder (sociopath) and I can tell you that there is a big difference in the mentality between a sociopath and a narcissist.
Here is a link I found helpful when I was doing research:

Please excuse her harsh view on sociopaths and narcissists though, we aren't all out to hurt people only like she makes it seem. I'd love to hear back from you.

Haha my apologies for the massive text, thanks for the reply I basically have looked at the qualities and in considering I basically kind of did a checklist to see what he fitted and kind of to illustrate would put in the things I can remember that fit the things a sociopath would be like as best I could. I could try, in regards to those he feels about (I'm planning to go to uni to study sociology in a few years so I kind of profiled him both for because he's a friend and to kind of use it for further sociology or psychology studies), he doesn't often go into it much but he still is to this day very protective of certain people, there are a lot of people and I mean a lot (I might be included I don't know) that if they died like from something right in front of him or if someone went up to them and got shot and he was watching he would barely flinch he might flinch and then spend a few hours being a little I suppose shocked but then he would continue on with his day I imagine it'd be almost like "well I don't know them why should it effect my further productivity they're dead who cares?" and I've asked him that before if someone he didn't know died in front of him like most people would take a day or two off at work if they saw someone at work die from the shock and I asked him how long and he replied 'an hour give or take if I didn't know them maybe less, if it's natural causes under half an hour', he's just basically from what I can tell two people he's a man of extremes either he will care very strongly about you or not at all. Almost like a barrier where if you can finally get him to trust you (from what I can tell he suffers from well despotic personality, very authoritarian at times and paranoid at times too I've told him once before in my frustration at him "not everyone is out to get you for f sake"). There are very few people I can tell that he would be shattered at, I can remember a close relative of his I think his aunty maybe died that day and I vaguely knew her I'd met her once or twice as she lived only a few minutes away and met her, she was old though, and she died a few years back about 5 or 6 back at school and he arrived that day at school and I was surprised he even came to school (I only remember because I was so shocked at how almost unconcerned he was), he didn't show any emotion towards it when I asked something along the likes of why he was at school he basically to paraphrase said life goes on (I have a good memory of things he's done and things in general ha, not eidetic but good for significant events). I try not to type too much of his childhood because if he found out I was typing this or posting about him he'd connect the dots (very intelligent), well lets just say he doesn't get angry quickly but when he gets angry my goodness he gets angry (kind of like if you avoid tax for 50 years then it all hits at once ha), the few times I've seen him get angry was when someone insulted his mum and it was basically he got them in a headlock at high school and choked them to the point they passed out and then let go right before they did and then when they were pushing him for doing it he looked sad that he'd done something wrong then as I walked off to calm him down he said 'I'm fine I don't really care just didn't want to get the teachers called over or him to go to the sick bay then I'd be in deep crap'. It's basically only close relatives or friends he can care about, he has abandonment issues that I won't go into from what he has told me of his childhood, very traumatic childhood from certain issues (lets just say not physical but family wise certain events), that I think have scarred him badly. To outline it he basically feels very protective of his mother (if you make a your mum joke he will laugh with you but he will be I think angry inside, because he will brush it off then when no ones around throw something, he's done that with my stuff before and I remember going off at him for it, he was really mad because someone kept making jokes about his mum and he basically when it was just me and him he flipped out launched my stuff, his and others pretty much all over the room in pure rage). Once he gets enraged and it's usually about his mother or parents or his upbringing, make a joke about that and he can turn if not violent he will not forget, I have forget a lot of school things, but he reminded me when I was talking about bullying of something a kid said in passing about his mother and this would have been in grade 6 or 7 I reckon so we are talking close to a decade ago in passing he remembers it. In response to some of that that's kind of why I thought maybe sociopath, because from what I've read it's more possible for them to have feelings for close friends or family kind of like a conscience with deep holes in it, but then again the lines are totally blurred in my opinion on it. He's too I don't know he is no doubt narcissistic (he tries to seem like the nice kid who is humble but when he shows his true self he I think takes pride in being the smartest person in the room and enjoys manipulating people to prove it, enjoys proving he's the smartest) but I think most people with sociopathy have narcissism, kind of all sociopaths are narcissists not all narcissists are sociopaths. I kind of thought he may have been a narcissist at first but then the manipulation, the lying, the basically the lack of emotion for most people (even what a normal person would care about people they haven't met he doesn't generally), so whether he's a full grown APD or sociopath or just tendencies to be honest I think it's not great either way. When he is driven though, he's so driven it's not funny I.E intending to open his own company (which he's currently doing), I'd hate to have him as an employee because he'd be after your job within 5 minutes or try and manipulate or frame you to get you fired, ambitious as I've ever met and as ruthless as I've ever met when needed, kind of the typical sociopath business/corporate person haha in a way.

I consider it a harsh article to a degree, but I can see where she's coming from in a way, he's kind of if he wasn't so manipulative I'd think he was a narcissist, but he doesn't care about people pandering his ego, he almost doesn't need them to in a way from what I have observed on it, he surrounds himself with very few people who agree with him, I disagree with him on most things (ironic sociopathic tendencies but extremely left wing and humanitarian on a lot of societal issues haha), he doesn't like people to think the same based on arguments I have he approaches any difference of view though like a lawyer considers all your points and punishes them into the ground, like he almost wants to make you have to say you are right enjoys the challenge to destroy your argument but he also doesn't really care it's just as long as he's not wrong not that he feels like he needs approval I think he enjoys just destroying someone elses viewpoint). I think he's kind of what I describe a "semi-sociopath" kind of the tendencies without the entire diagnosis, he actually has flaunted it because he knows I plan to study sociology I mentioned it to him a few times, he basically flaunts back and goes "well even if I am it doesn't matter...you'll never diagnose me as one, do a test I'm sure I'll pass your legitimate test as more an empath than sociopath", or the NDSM criteria he flaunts back as if to say "nah one short of an official diagnosis, bad luck" almost as if he's proud of being a sociopath but not so much that it's detrimental to be diagnosed "Why would I want a diagnosis? I see no benefit to a diagnosis, especially if someone else gets ahold of it". It's a pity I was hoping he'd go to counseling for an official diagnosis, but I doubt he'd ever show his real self to them, too much of a chess player for that to allow himself to in my opinion if something doesn't pose a benefit to him (he helps people and will go out of his way but the more I think about it I think it's more helping rather than the people more the shield of being a great person than actually being one).

Thanks

[Mattmx]

Originally Posted by la90

Haha my apologies for the massive text, thanks for the reply I basically have looked at the qualities and in considering I basically kind of did a checklist to see what he fitted and kind of to illustrate would put in the things I can remember that fit the things a sociopath would be like as best I could. I could try, in regards to those he feels about (I'm planning to go to uni to study sociology in a few years so I kind of profiled him both for because he's a friend and to kind of use it for further sociology or psychology studies), he doesn't often go into it much but he still is to this day very protective of certain people, there are a lot of people and I mean a lot (I might be included I don't know) that if they died like from something right in front of him or if someone went up to them and got shot and he was watching he would barely flinch he might flinch and then spend a few hours being a little I suppose shocked but then he would continue on with his day I imagine it'd be almost like "well I don't know them why should it effect my further productivity they're dead who cares?" and I've asked him that before if someone he didn't know died in front of him like most people would take a day or two off at work if they saw someone at work die from the shock and I asked him how long and he replied 'an hour give or take if I didn't know them maybe less, if it's natural causes under half an hour', he's just basically from what I can tell two people he's a man of extremes either he will care very strongly about you or not at all. Almost like a barrier where if you can finally get him to trust you (from what I can tell he suffers from well despotic personality, very authoritarian at times and paranoid at times too I've told him once before in my frustration at him "not everyone is out to get you for f sake"). There are very few people I can tell that he would be shattered at, I can remember a close relative of his I think his aunty maybe died that day and I vaguely knew her I'd met her once or twice as she lived only a few minutes away and met her, she was old though, and she died a few years back about 5 or 6 back at school and he arrived that day at school and I was surprised he even came to school (I only remember because I was so shocked at how almost unconcerned he was), he didn't show any emotion towards it when I asked something along the likes of why he was at school he basically to paraphrase said life goes on (I have a good memory of things he's done and things in general ha, not eidetic but good for significant events). I try not to type too much of his childhood because if he found out I was typing this or posting about him he'd connect the dots (very intelligent), well lets just say he doesn't get angry quickly but when he gets angry my goodness he gets angry (kind of like if you avoid tax for 50 years then it all hits at once ha), the few times I've seen him get angry was when someone insulted his mum and it was basically he got them in a headlock at high school and choked them to the point they passed out and then let go right before they did and then when they were pushing him for doing it he looked sad that he'd done something wrong then as I walked off to calm him down he said 'I'm fine I don't really care just didn't want to get the teachers called over or him to go to the sick bay then I'd be in deep crap'. It's basically only close relatives or friends he can care about, he has abandonment issues that I won't go into from what he has told me of his childhood, very traumatic childhood from certain issues (lets just say not physical but family wise certain events), that I think have scarred him badly. To outline it he basically feels very protective of his mother (if you make a your mum joke he will laugh with you but he will be I think angry inside, because he will brush it off then when no ones around throw something, he's done that with my stuff before and I remember going off at him for it, he was really mad because someone kept making jokes about his mum and he basically when it was just me and him he flipped out launched my stuff, his and others pretty much all over the room in pure rage). Once he gets enraged and it's usually about his mother or parents or his upbringing, make a joke about that and he can turn if not violent he will not forget, I have forget a lot of school things, but he reminded me when I was talking about bullying of something a kid said in passing about his mother and this would have been in grade 6 or 7 I reckon so we are talking close to a decade ago in passing he remembers it. In response to some of that that's kind of why I thought maybe sociopath, because from what I've read it's more possible for them to have feelings for close friends or family kind of like a conscience with deep holes in it, but then again the lines are totally blurred in my opinion on it. He's too I don't know he is no doubt narcissistic (he tries to seem like the nice kid who is humble but when he shows his true self he I think takes pride in being the smartest person in the room and enjoys manipulating people to prove it, enjoys proving he's the smartest) but I think most people with sociopathy have narcissism, kind of all sociopaths are narcissists not all narcissists are sociopaths. I kind of thought he may have been a narcissist at first but then the manipulation, the lying, the basically the lack of emotion for most people (even what a normal person would care about people they haven't met he doesn't generally), so whether he's a full grown APD or sociopath or just tendencies to be honest I think it's not great either way. When he is driven though, he's so driven it's not funny I.E intending to open his own company (which he's currently doing), I'd hate to have him as an employee because he'd be after your job within 5 minutes or try and manipulate or frame you to get you fired, ambitious as I've ever met and as ruthless as I've ever met when needed, kind of the typical sociopath business/corporate person haha in a way.

I consider it a harsh article to a degree, but I can see where she's coming from in a way, he's kind of if he wasn't so manipulative I'd think he was a narcissist, but he doesn't care about people pandering his ego, he almost doesn't need them to in a way from what I have observed on it, he surrounds himself with very few people who agree with him, I disagree with him on most things (ironic sociopathic tendencies but extremely left wing and humanitarian on a lot of societal issues haha), he doesn't like people to think the same based on arguments I have he approaches any difference of view though like a lawyer considers all your points and punishes them into the ground, like he almost wants to make you have to say you are right enjoys the challenge to destroy your argument but he also doesn't really care it's just as long as he's not wrong not that he feels like he needs approval I think he enjoys just destroying someone elses viewpoint). I think he's kind of what I describe a "semi-sociopath" kind of the tendencies without the entire diagnosis, he actually has flaunted it because he knows I plan to study sociology I mentioned it to him a few times, he basically flaunts back and goes "well even if I am it doesn't matter...you'll never diagnose me as one, do a test I'm sure I'll pass your legitimate test as more an empath than sociopath", or the NDSM criteria he flaunts back as if to say "nah one short of an official diagnosis, bad luck" almost as if he's proud of being a sociopath but not so much that it's detrimental to be diagnosed "Why would I want a diagnosis? I see no benefit to a diagnosis, especially if someone else gets ahold of it". It's a pity I was hoping he'd go to counseling for an official diagnosis, but I doubt he'd ever show his real self to them, too much of a chess player for that to allow himself to in my opinion if something doesn't pose a benefit to him (he helps people and will go out of his way but the more I think about it I think it's more helping rather than the people more the shield of being a great person than actually being one).

Thanks

Sorry for such a short answer to a long post again, but I believe it may be possible that he is shutting down like that because of the abandonment? It could have taught him that not caring is the best way to avoid being hurt...What do you think about that?

[la90]

Originally Posted by Mattmx

Sorry for such a short answer to a long post again, but I believe it may be possible that he is shutting down like that because of the abandonment? It could have taught him that not caring is the best way to avoid being hurt...What do you think about that?

That's probably kind of the closest to the conclusion I have came up with, I have read on a number of sources for those that argue sociopaths and psychopaths are different that one is almost (sociopath) nurtured hence the socio more sociology or made by human interaction to be like it, I think that his sociopathic tendencies or if he's APD I think it's because of abandonment issues, it's hard to explain via text but just through my interaction with him it's just something that is probably I don't know just I feel something more than simply shutting down it's almost like it's hard to explain but trying to think how to explain it ha but it's almost like he just really doesn't care anymore beyond himself and a select few, he doesn't particularly care about taking risks and some of them you would swear if it was someone less intelligent then they'd be just branded an idiot, I kind of think that whatever he has gone through in his childhood (I don't know the full story but from bits I've been told it sounds traumatic enough) I think that has basically moulded him into what he is and I think that is either someone who has either basically killed their ability to feel empathy or care for others and virtually became someone with extreme sociopathic tendencies, I basically think his childhood turned him sociopathic because I do believe nurture is just as strong as nature in affecting personality, mentality and psychology, so your point I think ties into it but I kind of think from what I've seen with him I just don't see him changing it's not really just that he's shut himself off I think he has just destroyed any notion of what normal people feel or his experiences as a young kid caused him to become like that. I suppose basically for all I've seen of him he hasn't changed very much, he hasn't became anymore caring although he can act like he is I kind of just think whatever he is, he is and really there is no turning back, I think that his experiences have basically caused him to turn into what he is, if any of that makes sense. I don't disagree with what your saying at all I think it's rather valid but I kind of think it's more I suppose extreme, I think whatever he was taught or learned as a kid has basically become his nature now, I think the cold and unempathetic and remorseless (borderline remorseless) person he is I think he will be because I know he's been to counseling and from what I can tell he's simply used the counseling to appear more normal but I still see him as not emotionless but more selfishly emotional doesn't concern him he has little care although he acts as if he does. I think the abandonment and verbal abuse (physical maybe I don't know, I know his father was rather verbally abusive I don't know physically or not but it wouldn't surprise me) I think it's turned him to be what he is and unfortunately I don't really see him turning back from what he is whether that's a I don't know APD or sociopath or psychopath or whatever label even as a good friend of his for all the time I've known him he hasn't changed no matter and I kind of I wouldn't say lost hope but I just can't see him being anything different (genuinely) he could fake it of course but I don't see him genuinely changing, when I actually kind of i suppose I brought up with him about a month ago kind of psychopaths, sociopaths I didn't claim him to be one but I mentioned how they felt empathy at times studies have shown and all that and that they might be able to change in the future and his reply was pretty clear cut "why would they want to change?" and that kind of basically confirmed to me I thought that no matter what he is I don't see him changing whether he could or not I don't think he would anyway.