[ihateit]

Yup, I know, trust is prolly a big discussion in here, but...I wanted some opinions on what my T did with me the other day.

Background Information:

Ok, I have an irrational fear of death...or, did, so one of my Ts thought. Explained: If you leave a baby of 6 months old in their crib, and don't feed it, don't nurture it, what happens, it dies. Ok, so, she told me that if I were to be left a lone, I'd be fine, I can feed myself, and eventually find the nurturing I need, and hence I wouldn't die. Well, ok. Fine...so if my wife left me (this was one of those bad times we were having), I'd live, physically (not so sure too many Ts understand love, or at least the way I do, anyway...).

Everything gets better between the wife and I. I have no panic/anxiety symptoms for 4 years, for the most part. Then we find out we have to move to the UK. It all comes back, I have at least one major panic attack, and am always on edge, thought it was my fear of flying...didn't go away when I got here. Things got worse and worse and my wife finally said the D word to me. Again if you know my story, we're fine now, thank you Jesus! I find out why she did what she did, and I start seeing a T again for my anxieties which had slowly eaten away at me for over a year.

Present: I have a problem, huge one, with trust. My father left when I was 6, he came back, my mum divorced him when I was 14, and chose to live with her husband and not take me (I wanted to live with my mum). My father was mentally abusive, and when I was younger, physically abusive, although I know he didn't see it that way...doesn't matter, he was. My first "true love" at 18 cheated on me, lied, then finally dumped me for her X, whom she promptly married. My first wife wouldn't leave her mum and the states when I got stationed in the UK the first time. My second wife wouldn't leave her family when I got stationed back in the states. My third wife, totally fooled me. She was fine, for a long time, then her bi-polar disorder popped outta nowhere. I found out she also cheated on me and when she was pregnant while we were married it wasn't mine, she miscarried, I think on purpose. My sisters have lied to me and done things behind my back that really hurt me. My current wife, well if you understood my faith and my beliefs...all but cheated on me (4th wife, yeah, you'd think I'd have given up...therein lies one of the problems...fear of being alone, ok...).

So, now I have this thing, any little change in personality, routine, actions, anything, I think something is going on, and my "spidey senses" go off. Even if rationally I know there is nothing going on, I think of a million things that could be happening.

So I discussed this with my T. Why can't I stop the thoughts, why can't I trust anyone, why am I so dependant, as I have lived alone, and was fine...

Answer (from him): Did they really break your trust? I was like WTF? Yeah... He used my mother as the analogy...

She had a choice to make, two roads she could have gone down. 1. When you get married, you plan on being married for life, so, she's looking at 30 to 40 (or more) years with this guy, whilst 2. I have 4 years of high school left, then I am off to do whatever. She chose what she did because she knew I'd always be her son, but this is the guy she wanted to live with and be with for the rest of her life, so, she chose #1.

I can and do understand what he is saying. Basically, people don't do things to you, or to directly inflict pain on you, they do things for other reasons. Yes some actually do mean to hurt you, but the majority of people don't. Something clicked in my head at that moment...see, I cheated on my wife some time ago, but I never stopped being in love with her, there were reasons why I did what I did, and yes I chose the wrong road when I came to the two, but I didn't (cliche I know) mean to hurt her. So there's nothing to forgive? I don't have to forgive my mum for chosing a stranger she knew for a few months over her own son? This is what he said.

Ok, there it is all long and drawn out, sorry . Yet, after all the thinking I have been doing for the past few days about this, I think he's wrong. Why? No, I didn't mean to hurt my wife, but I DID hurt her, I broke a trust! She is an amazing woman, forgave me and she says she doesn't even think about it anymore. No, I will never do it again, but...me, I still think about what she did, and it affects me, still. I can forgive, but forgetting is another thing. My mum, chosing some guy she barely knows over her own son, that DID hurt me, all the cheating on me, hurt me.

So, what do you guys think. Do I need to change my way of thinking, retrain the brain so to speak, knowing that when someone does something, it's most likely not meant to hurt me and therefore shouldn't break my trust? With some things, I say yes, but for a lot of things, I just can't agree.

Sorry so long, and I hope I was clear, coz I have a problem making myself clear at times.

Thanks guys and God bless!

P.S. I'll do the fear of being left later, this is way long as it is heh...

[Junerain]

What kind of changes in personality, routine, and actions make your spidey sense go off, and hence, not trust? Is the spidey sense a daily, everyday on edge feeling?

Or are the questions more about how hurt you were, by both your wife and your mother?

Do you feel deep guilt for your own actions?

I have always enjoyed your posts Ihateit, you are so intelligent and you can PM me anytime.....perhaps these questions can pinpoint things?

[madisgram]

idk if i can help you with this or not,but i'll try.
one: i feel your T could/may have acknowledged the hurt you felt when your mom left you with your dad. do u feel your T did this? you were young enough that not being able to understand your mom leaving could have established some abandonment issues that you need to resolve, imo.
another thing, did your mom explain to you why she was leaving you with your dad? that would/could have helped if she did. or did she just leave?

second: everyone makes mistakes or uses poor judgement in their life that affects other people. you used the time you cheated on your wife as an example. when we use poor judgement we are not saying to ourselves, "i want to hurt X so i'm going to do this." instead we are doing what we want to do in spite of the consequences of hurting someone we love.
none of us are perfect and we all do this in our lives at one time or another even when we truly love someone we hurt. so do u think that was the emphasis your T was using? he wasn't minimizing your hurt but perhaps was trying to illustrate this point. idk, but thought i'd throw that out to you.

third: trust is broken by all of us. we all have done this to people. like you told your wife you were sorry and she forgave you and let it go. if we stay in that place where we focus on trust being broken all the time by others we cannot heal ourselves. we stay in that place where we feel betrayed. we won't move on and thus the trust issue still festers within us. if we do that we are unable to get to a better peace of mind. so it's more about focusing on ones self than living in the past about things we can never change or re-experience in a better way even if we'd like to.

i hope what i've stated makes some sense and partially answers your question. idk but i've tried. i too have had trust issues in the past and it was these experiences and therapy that gave me this way of dealing with trust or betrayal or abandonment. i have chosen to move on with my life. to replace hurts and things and filled that hurting hole with good things and people. we only really have only the day we are in right now. for me dwelling on things i can't change anyway would yield me no good results, jme. it's what i call acceptance of what is right now that counts.
hope this helps.

[Junerain]

Madisgram how well put!! Thank you sooo much. I feel a 'trust' has been broken between myself and society in the ways and manner I was treated when I must have been a little 'off.' I felt unable to trust again, anyone, it seemed. You are right sometimes to heal we must put the focus on 'myself.' It does not feel natural to me..yet..in small ways when I choose _my time or _my resources yes I have the sense I am doing the right thing. Thank you so much.

[madisgram]

Originally Posted by Junerain

Madisgram how well put!! Thank you sooo much. I feel a 'trust' has been broken between myself and society in the ways and manner I was treated when I must have been a little 'off.' I felt unable to trust again, anyone, it seemed. You are right sometimes to heal we must put the focus on 'myself.' It does not feel natural to me..yet..in small ways when I choose _my time or _my resources yes I have the sense I am doing the right thing. Thank you so much.

u're very welcome, june. i'm glad that helped.
another thing my T taught me is that there was a persone who had really done harm to me that i trusted and it was a rather unique situation. my sister did irreperable harm to me. she has never made restitution or apologized. i asked my T, ok, what do i do with this? i still love my sister even tho she did an unthinkable. he replied...how do you stay healthy in an unhealthy relationship? course i just had a dumb look of my face.....he said, keep a "healthy" distance. so i have a relationship with my sister but in that area of transgression, i am always on guard so she cannot be allowed to ever do that thing again to me. it's worked for me! i've even gotten to the point where i can reflect sadness for her cause she had choices of how she dealed with this and she must live with the fact that she did nothing... must eat at her conscience but that's not my concern or worry. i don't feel high and mighty about this...it just is what it is..but i can sleep well at night that i didn't attack back or get revenge. it would have brought no fruitful result...and yes, i keep a healthy distance but can still enjoy the other aspects of our sisterhood.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by ihateit

So, now I have this thing, any little change in personality, routine, actions, anything, I think something is going on, and my "spidey senses" go off. Even if rationally I know there is nothing going on, I think of a million things that could be happening.

So I discussed this with my T. Why can't I stop the thoughts, why can't I trust anyone, why am I so dependant, as I have lived alone, and was fine...

I agree with you Ihateit and not your therapist on this one.

The thing with anxiety is that stability is good and change is very bad! (Maybe why your anxiety returned after you moved to the UK?)

I got rid of my anxiety by healing my hurts and understanding what happened to me and what I needed to fix.......... Learning how to trust again was one thing that I fixed.

[ihateit]

Originally Posted by Junerain

What kind of changes in personality, routine, and actions make your spidey sense go off, and hence, not trust? Is the spidey sense a daily, everyday on edge feeling?

Or are the questions more about how hurt you were, by both your wife and your mother?

Do you feel deep guilt for your own actions?

I have always enjoyed your posts Ihateit, you are so intelligent and you can PM me anytime.....perhaps these questions can pinpoint things?

Changes - honestly, anything. Trying to think of something...ok, I notice my wife is wearing a diff perfume, that sets off the "spidey senses" hehe...but in reality she just wanted to wear something diff, I think of many reason (bad) that she would change her perfume. Routine - She used to wear certain things to bed, now she's in sweats and a t-shirt, I know why, but, things go off in my head. Actions - not so black and white, not easy to pinpoint. I guess right now the no affection thing, which has been discussed and I understand, but at first it was very disconcerting. And yes, it's everyday, but I'm not always on edge...the trigger has to hit, once it does, then I'm edgy until I can either "see" the reality in what is going on or if I can, I focus on something else and forget about it for a while.

There are questions - My mum never told me the truth behind what happened. To this day, and it's not like I'm young anymore lol, she won't talk about it, but that's her choice, I have to accept it. My wife...I am not sure why she did what she did. We did discuss it at the time, more like fight, sigh...but at that time she explained what she could, which didn't really make sense, I couldn't comprehend it. Someone says they would never cheat on you, they don't even think about other men like that, for her to do what she did really threw me for a loop. Maybe that's why it still bothers me, why I can't forget, there's been no sense of closure on it, whereas when I cheated on her, there was almost a year of discussions between us until she could fully comprehend the why's and what's, I even had to put it on paper so she could see. She got closure, she could forgive and forget.

I suppose I do feel guilt for my actions, if they hurt someone. But that eventually fades, faster if I am told I am forgiven or that everything's ok, don't worry about it, etc. I think I regret things more than I feel guilty though, but my actions I don't really dwell on once closure has been reached.

Mad - Yes, he did acknowledge the pain, but, it's like he's saying there never should have been any pain, because what happened wasn't directed at me, wasn't meant to hurt me, so why should it? I find this odd...that I understand what he's saying, but at the same time I disagree, like I said, to a certain extent.

Hrrm, to a degree I see what you're saying Mad, but I think he was more saying there shouldn't be any need for forgiveness or pain, not minimizing it...maybe I misunderstood him, I will ask him about it again next Monday.

Getting out of that place, of mistrust, is what I can't seem to do. Everyone I have cared/care about has done something to break my trust. Please don't misconstrue that, as you said we all make mistakes and I by no means am transgression free. Yet, why can some people just get over it? I don't understand ... retrain the brain, I can't seem to quite get there. It's like I said to June, if I don't feel there has been closure to a situation, it does fester...which perpetuates other feelings, like my distrust of even minor, no meaning changes. This is where my stuck point is, and I need to get over it somehow ... hrrrm.

Sannah - I don't know if I can understand if I can't be told. If my mother or wife won't give me closure, it's hard to "get it", and therefore I am stuck in a viscious circle. I do have my good days, when nothing happens and I am fine, but for the most part, especially now at this point in my life, i don't know how to understand these things, or how to fix them, and just move on. I never used to be like this, I was laid back, no worries, happy-go-lucky guy, I am trying to be that guy again, because that is me, not this untrusting, scared person.

Thank you all for your answers and help, believe it or not, you have helped, a lot! I really appreciate you guys!

Thank you and God bless!

[ihateit]

Here's two that got me, just now...thinking back to one and one that just occurred...

1. Not to be giving out TMI, but yesterday my wife was wearing a "pad"...there are only two reasons she wears one. I don't think I have to explain that, unless you're a guy and don't know the second reason.
- This bothered me, because I don't really know the last time she had "friends" visiting. The perfect opportunity came to say something when we were watching a show, and one of the girls in the show had been using tampons, although she had been telling everyone she was preggers. So I asked her if she was ... and she said she was getting back pain (start of cramps) but wasn't bleeding yet. So, why then are you wearing a pad? And this morning, if I'm not mistaken, she's not wearing one. Now imagine what goes through my mind at this stage...

2. Being that my wife is in the military, we need to ensure we have a military clause for everything, in case we have to suddenly leave (just a little backgroud). We decided to switched our elec and gas company because our bills were way too high. She insisted on doing it, kinda, I said I could but she said it was no problem, she didn't have much to do at work and would do it, and that she needed to be first listed on the account anyway. Ok, whatever, right? She then asked me to call and give them the meter readings, but guess what, I am not listed on the account. I could give them the readings, but that was all I could do. Why would she not put me on the account like she has with everything else? - This bothered me but I don't think I have to explain why, although below will kinda.

Thought provoking for me...prolly not for you guys. She realized her "friends" weren't visiting, hence no need for the pad...that's the reality, right? What's in my head says otherwise...and I can't stop it. She didn't put me on the account because she's not planning on staying with me, so why put me on it? That's not the reality, she just didn't realize because I was on the direct debit that I wouldn't be automatically added to the account, or she forgot (which she has done before). I know the truth, but that is what goes through my mind...

I apologized for the TMI, but these were two perfect examples of how I see things, and then think about them. Thanks again for reading and helping!

God bless!!!!!!!!!!

[madisgram]

Originally Posted by ihateit

Here's two that got me, just now...thinking back to one and one that just occurred...

I know the truth, but that is what goes through my mind...

I apologized for the TMI, but these were two perfect examples of how I see things, and then think about them. Thanks again for reading and helping!

God bless!!!!!!!!!!

feeling are not facts.
i had to learn this, ihateit, cause it was getting in my way of dealing with life-relationships, me, etc.
your feelings are overpowering what you have acknowledged as facts about those 2 examples. as a result you are ruminating false facts in your mind that keep you upset. perhaps this is something you can discuss with your therapist. i did that and my T helped me see the true fact about something so i could let the false fact go.
i hope this helps and i explained it well enough for you to see what i'm referencing.

[ihateit]

Originally Posted by madisgram

feeling are not facts.
i had to learn this, ihateit, cause it was getting in my way of dealing with life-relationships, me, etc.
your feelings are overpowering what you have acknowledged as facts about those 2 examples. as a result you are ruminating false facts in your mind that keep you upset. perhaps this is something you can discuss with your therapist. i did that and my T helped me see the true fact about something so i could let the false fact go.
i hope this helps and i explained it well enough for you to see what i'm referencing.

Umm, wow...yes you explained that perfectly. I will bring this very thing up with my T. That I am letting the false facts from my feelings make them "true" in my mind, and I need to let them (false facts) go, so the truth is what is seen. Wow thanks! That's awesome!

FYI ... LOL, truth was, there was only one place to enter someone's name in the on-line application, and she did assume since I was on the bank account that I would be added to the account (see, I knew the truth, but let my feelings take that truth away...cool, again, wow lol). And, as I know the truth about the TMI section, I am going to DWELL on the truth, just for a few moments, and then just let it go. I won't even think about bringing it up to her, this one I prolly wouldn't have anyway, but I had thought about it lol.

TYVM Mad! You have been a huge help, now with this explination, maybe my T will see it and give me some sort of cognative exercises to really know and see the truth and stop the feelings from taking that truth away!

God bless!!!

[Sannah]

Ihateit, where I live only one person can be listed on the account but the spouse can still call about the account. I don't get the worries about the pad????

Ihateit, I think that you are already insecure and you are just looking for things to confirm it??????

About your mum. What is there for her to explain? She doesn't want to discuss it because it would remind her of what she chose???? My mom didn't give me any closure (narcissistic mom) and I was still able to move beyond what happened to me. I accepted that my mom has a mental illness and this is why she did what she did. It didn't have anything to do with me (except that she hurt me - I still disagree with your therapist!).

I got over my anxiety by building a secure life for myself (looking for things to confirm your insecurities is kind of the opposite?), purging my unresolved feelings and issues from the past and healing, improving my self worth, learning social skills and what is "normal", building healthy boundaries, living in the present, empowering myself and taking control of my life, to name a few.............

[ihateit]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Ihateit, where I live only one person can be listed on the account but the spouse can still call about the account. I don't get the worries about the pad????

Ihateit, I think that you are already insecure and you are just looking for things to confirm it??????

About your mum. What is there for her to explain? She doesn't want to discuss it because it would remind her of what she chose???? My mom didn't give me any closure (narcissistic mom) and I was still able to move beyond what happened to me. I accepted that my mom has a mental illness and this is why she did what she did. It didn't have anything to do with me (except that she hurt me - I still disagree with your therapist!).

I got over my anxiety by building a secure life for myself (looking for things to confirm your insecurities is kind of the opposite?), purging my unresolved feelings and issues from the past and healing, improving my self worth, learning social skills and what is "normal", building healthy boundaries, living in the present, empowering myself and taking control of my life, to name a few.............

Ahh, there Sannah is!

Here, everything we have from phone to Internet to gas/elec all have to have you listed, spouse or not, I dunno why. They actually told her that for me to be added I have to be with her so she can hand me the phone rofl...whatever. Yet, I knew that was what the answer was, she couldn't and thought they would, or she forgot...but... *shrug*

Yeah, I am insecure, very. And, yes, affirmation is something I seek, and it makes me feel week, and stupid. I know the truth, in most instances, but if I don't get affirmation I get stupid. Stuck Point.

Well, my mum...hrrrm. If she could hurt me, and affect me for years to come with what she did, I think she can stand a little pain, if there is any, in explaining to me at least once why she did what she did. My mother has no mental illness, she's fine, and she really hurt me. If I was in that situation, no one would tell me I had to chose between them and my child. That's how I see it. Now, saying all that, I used that as an example, I gave up asking for the truth, sick of her lies, and for the most part did move on, until T asked about who and what has left me or hurt me or ... broke my trust. I don't think about it anymore, unless someone brings it up. So in a way I am past it to a certain degree...but do you not think it has helped perpetuate my distrust for those I get close to (honest question)?

I suppose every day my wife and I are both getting more secure, and the fears we have about each other, get less and less, time does help. It's awesome that you have done what you have! And just as great is that you share it with us, so we can learn and do. So, you know what I'm gonna do...I'm gonna have a talk with myself (if I answer, it's ok, right? ), and let me know what's up. Forget the past, at least things that I perceive as bad things, love life again, and just be me, not this ... stranger I had become.

TYVM Sannah! You really are a great help!

God bless!

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by ihateit

Yeah, I am insecure, very. And, yes, affirmation is something I seek, and it makes me feel week, and stupid. I know the truth, in most instances, but if I don't get affirmation I get stupid. Stuck Point.

I don't know if a person can forget the past? Work through it but forget it?????

Your mum might not have had a mental illness but she put herself before you. I just don't understand women who do this type of stuff. You have heard of maternal instinct of course. This stuff is powerful (I have 2 children) I have given up a lot for my children (they had terrible allergies and I worked my #@*& off to get them healthy. I sacrificed my time and energy for their wellbeing. I would do anything for my children (not spoiling of course ). I just don't understand woman who don't put their children first?????????? (Of course I'm not overboard. I do take care of myself too!)

I had to learn to trust because of my mom's neglect of me (emotional). It is possible.............

[Mr.Mike]

Hey ihatit,

Your situation sounds real similiar to mine, meaning I have a real trust problem steming from my past experiences. My mind does the same thing--it has been a thorn in my marraige for 14 years. I am finally seeing a therapist tomorrow to see if I can get some help as well. I understand because all of those thoughts you have about what your wife is doing--I do that also. You should hear my last issue--oh my gosh--I am an idiot, but I can't help but think it because of the circumstances. This one has finally made me realize I have a problem. And that's why the tharapist tomorrow. I will tell you about it if your interested.

Anyway, I think what I have and you probably do also is what they call Paranoid Personality Disorder. Read up on it and see if that's you. And if you can get your wife to read up on it also--she might realize it really is a physiological problem. Now if your wife is as upset about the situations as mine is, she might be more sarcastic than understanding and teachable.

Keep me posted on your progess and maybe I will chime in once in awhile.

[ihateit]

Originally Posted by Mr.Mike

Hey ihatit,

Your situation sounds real similiar to mine, meaning I have a real trust problem steming from my past experiences. My mind does the same thing--it has been a thorn in my marraige for 14 years. I am finally seeing a therapist tomorrow to see if I can get some help as well. I understand because all of those thoughts you have about what your wife is doing--I do that also. You should hear my last issue--oh my gosh--I am an idiot, but I can't help but think it because of the circumstances. This one has finally made me realize I have a problem. And that's why the tharapist tomorrow. I will tell you about it if your interested.

Anyway, I think what I have and you probably do also is what they call Paranoid Personality Disorder. Read up on it and see if that's you. And if you can get your wife to read up on it also--she might realize it really is a physiological problem. Now if your wife is as upset about the situations as mine is, she might be more sarcastic than understanding and teachable.

Keep me posted on your progress and maybe I will chime in once in awhile.

Thanks for your post MrMike! Welcome to PC as well! I am sorry to hear that you have similar problems, it's hard, it's a pain...for me I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now thanks to my friends here and my T. I hope you too can come through that tunnel!

I actually was diagnosed with Anxiety/Panic Disorder 17 years ago. The result of my anxieties led to what has happened, and although for the most part I can control it and have basically a normal life, it does rear it's ugly head now and again, especially the Anxiety part. I did look at the criteria for Paranoid Personality Disorder, and no, that's not me at all.

I am not a combative person, actually I hate confrontation. Although when my anger would take over, I would confront my wife. My "paranoia" is only towards her. My anger is gone, yes I can get angry, like if my son throws the DS at my daughter, but I don't yell and scream and hit or throw things anymore (not in over a month now! ). I don't feel the need, for some reaon it just literally is gone, and I can't say why...except maybe I realized I was doing it (before the wife mentioned it) and I sort of subconciously washed that kind of anger from me. I would get so mad I would yell, and hit things or throw things, but never at anyone or abusive. Just angry... I am for the most part an easy going, easy to get a long with person. Again, I only have this problem with my wife, I don't distrust most people, and for the most part I think everyone is good until proven otherwise.

If you haven't read my story, it's posted in the Relationships & Communication section...but in short, my wife came home one day, just over a month ago and said she didn't love me, was numb, didn't need me, wanted a divorce and there was nothing I could do to fix it.

That's when all the "paranoid" thoughts started. Did she find someone else, why, out of the blue (I was happily married, ignorance is NOT bliss lol) would she do this, when I was happily married, and knew nothing of her even remotely thinking this. Came to find out she had had it with my anger fits and controlling her (trying). We are fine now, everything is back to "normal" for the most part, she has PTSD and is dealing with some things but other than those, which I am fully supportive of and letting her get through and helping all I can, whatever she needs, we're good. Except for my random paranoia.

Just FYI so you know why I did/do what I did/am doing...What happens to ppl with Anxiety/Panic Disorders...we feel the need to control, because if not, we feel all chaos will ensue...and the flip side of major anxiety is anger. My T helped me realize the anger part and this site taught me about the controlling part (thanks guys! ). Although a lot of the time I still feel the need to control her, I don't...yet that is what I feel is causing the mistrust. Because I can't say, "Why did it take you 3 hours to go shopping?", or "Why are you 20 minutes late?", or "Why are you calling on Friday night after normal work hours and telling me you have to stay at work late?" ... I get the stupid ideas that I know aren't true in my head...which leads to other things. Also with Anxiety/Panic Disorder is change = bad. Something esle I learned here (thanks again guys! ). So any little change, as I have explained above, or anything out of the ordinary will set me off to thinking. All false thoughts, when I know the truth, yet they still come. Sannah and Mad really have helped me a lot and I will discuss a few things with my T on Monday. Yet, I think Sannah and Mad hit it on the head, and really...I feel a lot better today!

Feel free to watch my progress, as I am sure I will be posting it here, I like to talk hehe...and it helps, to have other's see and reply to my questions, ppl that have been through or are going through what I have. GL on your journey, atleast you have seen that what you are doing is "wrong", and you are willing to fix it, your wife hopefully is thankful for that and will be supportive of you!

God bless!