[Liberada]

Can anyone tell me about my son? My husband thinks he was affected by the MMR vaccine he received when he was a baby. I read articles "proving" both sides of the story. Even read up on lead poisoning. My husband says he's fine but the more I read online, the more I wonder.

Here is what we know: He will be 12 on 11/22.

He wasn't a late walker in fact he started at about 7 months but at present he walks super pigeon toed and stumbles occasionally and runs only when necessary.

However, he was a slow talker. He started talking when he was about three. And still goes to speech therapy.

After the vaccine, he stopped making eye contact with me. With his father it was ok but he stopped with me. He's never showed me a true full on hug. Just kinda leaned into it like he had to. I'd understand a teenage boy not wanting to be embarrassed by his mom but 3, 4, 5, 6... they hug their moms. He never hugged me. His dad always says he never acted the same after the shots but never says what was different.

Eye contact is okay.

He's very sensitive. Always cried when he heard slow songs. Even always cried at hearing "Happy Birthday" song. Still pretty sensitive at 12.

He's 12 and has no school friends.

Has always played alone at recess.

Has always been Honor Roll and Principal's List. He just started 6th grade and takes algebra. He skipped math and advanced math. I didn't take algebra til 9th grade...but that was back in the stone age...and then it was optional. Got his report card today. 3 A's and 2 B's. I did good to get a C. ...so he didn't get it from me.

In the pick-up line after school seems to prefer to hang out with teachers rather than other students while he waits.

DISLIKES loud noises! Loud music, loud class room, lunch room, school bus. Prefers the quiet. My younger son is the same way about noises. I've picked him up before after school and he's cried telling me how loud the class was because there was a substitute.

Never bad manners, smart mouthed, talked back, anything like that. He's the white sheep of the family. Says please and thank you CONSTANTLY! Almost like he's been used to getting used to being punished if he didn't! And it's not that way! We're as laid back as they come! He's courteous to a fault! ...

He was in Boy Scouts for about a month and I told him the leader said he missed him during a meeting that he hadn't gone to (my younger son was in another group). That turned into a cry-fest that lasted until about 2am because he thought he hurt the mans feelings. That's how "sensitive" he is. (He missed a couple of meetings and was in an older group who was assigned 'homework' type duties. He already had plenty of school homework, hence the good grades he got. He thought that was plenty. His choice to quit.)

He doesn't obsess over things or have any ocd tendencies...but there was a blanket he had to have wrapped around him just so when he was younger. Not sure what he does now as he is 12 and prefers his privacy. Really not worried about OCD.

Should I be worried about anything? Or do I just have an incredibly bright, conscientious young man on my hands?

Should I make an appointment with his pediatrician? Or just chalk it up to growing pains?

Thank you for any insight you can give!

Off to bed now

[Omers]

I will be very curious as to where this thread goes as there area lot of discussion points that people feel strongly about.

The most important thing is how does he feel about himself and hot he fits or does not fit into his world.

MMR... My son's bio parents (he is adopted but we have a pretty good relationship) say he was fine until his MMR. In looking into his check ups as an infant some things are a little behind but could be consistant with the families "culture" and genetics. He also had a brain cyst that was discovered within months of his autism diagnosis.
My mom reports that she didn't see anything different about me until I was 5. However, other family members report on how she adapted things to fit my needs. Those needs could very well be seen as early signs of the aspergers. At 5 I was put in preschool and was outside my home for the first time. All the adaptations my mom had instinctively put in place were gone. I have no memories that would indicate that I have ever been NT (neurotypical AKA not autistc).
A friends daughter was very obviously autistic from the moment she was born. She however continues to struggle with her autism more than my son and I. My cousin is very successful but there was very noticable things that were "off" about her as an infant and as she developed.

I do believe that there is a biological piece to it regardless of where you stand on the whole MMR thing. Just to let you know my bias. I have personal evidence on all sides of all the other major Autism debates.

Talking to the Dr is always important although remember that they only see him for a short time and don't know him as well as you do. However we then run into the idea of do we diagnose or not.
I was misjudged and mislabled a lot and it was causing me a lot of pain and distress. Finally learning that it was Aspergers (at 30) was the best thing that ever happened to me.
My son needed a diagnosis to get services that he needs.
My cousin did just fine until the last couple of years (she is in her late teens/early 20's) and is now being misdiagnosed because Dr's don't have the whole picture. She is on medications that are not helping because they are (IMO) for the wrong thing. I believe she could benefit from a diagnosis.
My grandfather never had any reason to be diagnosed. Yes, the autism impacted his life in many ways. Over all though he was content and successful. A formal diagnosis may have held him back in some key areas depending on when he got it. He was a highly successful chemical engineer for a major company even though he did not make it past the 8th grade.

Which brings me back to my original statement about talking to your son. The diagnosis is not as important as understanding his needs. There are other things that can cause all the things you talked about. If his needs are not being met or he is not content with life then go after the right diagnosis with everything you've got. If he is content overall and his needs are being met I don't see a need to rush things. It may help however to keep a journal of the things you notice. If he does need a diagnosis down the road that information will be very important.

Just my (very long) 2cents!

[Gus1234U]

wow, i really feel for you, knowing how much you love your children (child) and want them to have a good life,, i don't have anything to offer, except my Best Wishes~~ Gus

[Yoda]

Two things to say:

First, your husband believes that your son was affected by the MMR vaccine he received as a child. There is a huge controversy surrounding MMR vaccine as a cause of autism. It started when Dr Andrew Wakefield published a study in the Lancet journal in which he concluded there was a link between MMR vaccine and autism. There are numerous problems with his study. He only had a sample size of 12. He did not get approval by their IRB board. No disclosure of conflicts of interest. No informed consent (ie, the parents nor the kids knew what was going on or that they were being experimented on). No potential benefit to performing potentially harmful procedures on a vulnerable population.

Wakefield "found" a link between the MMR vaccine and autism while accepting nearly a million dollars in funding from a competing pharmaceutical company trying to come up with an alternative vaccine for measles. He's a fraud, a liar, and a complete scumbag. At the time of the study Dr Wakefield was working as a paid expert in a class action suit being planned against makers of the MMR vaccine. He was paid £400,000 by attorneys two years before the study was published but the study does not disclose conflict of interest and Lancet stated that if they had been aware of the circumstances they would not have published his piece-o-crap study.

Wakefield was manipulating data in an attempt to discredit MMR vaccine while he himself had a patent for an alternate vaccine. He lost his license and no longer can legally practice medicine yet he still has a huge following in the US where he now lives and earlier this year he released a book about how people are covering up the truth of his study and I think it was top ten on Amazon for a bit.

Since Wakefield's study there have been 12 (I think) studies of 600,000 children and none of those studies have found a link between the vaccine and autism. Nevertheless laypeople are largely uninformed of the study results and are influenced by people like Oprah who was warning parents about the vaccine and people listened to Oprah as though she were credible. Jenny McCarthy was on the show and she said her son had autism because of the vaccine. Jenny's celebrity came after she posed nude for Playboy and many people, like your husband, are influenced by her and other celebrities including Jim Carrey rather than peer reviewed science.

And people disregard that thimerosal was never used as a preservative in the Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccine. All vaccines licensed since 1999, with the exception of a few multidose container vaccines (such as some, but not all, HIB and Influenza vaccines), have not contained thimerosal as a preservative. Autism has not declined since 1999, thereby disproving this connection. In addition, Jenny McCarthy's child, Evan, was not born until 2002, well after thimerosal had been removed from most childhood vaccines.

Link explaining it all in simple to read format

There are studies that suggest a genetic link for autism but finding the "one cause" may be presumptuous. There are likely multiple things that influence the development of autism. You wouldn't expect to find a single cause of mental retardation or blindness.

Second, as the previous poster said the diagnosis is not as important as understanding his needs. Autism/Aspergers is a wide spectrum and symptoms vary in different people. Your child may have variation of autism and I would suggest you talk to your doctor about his behaviors. It is not so important to label him as it is to find how to help him. My own son had delayed speech and I had him evaluated by a speech therapist but he was normal though delayed. When he finally started talking he was fine with that (although he does have a learning disability).

That you mention eye contact is good is encouraging. Is he the same when he is with one or two children as he is with a large group? Some children seem to learn how to interact with other children without prompting and other children need help learning how to respond. I had problems myself and was told my interactions socially were inappropriate. I believe I had/have Aspergers now that I look back on it all but I was able to find help in my early twenties to interact appropriately. I still am a loner and a bit eccentric but I have learned to live with my strengths and weaknesses.

It is curious that your son is so sensitive to loud sounds. My son has always been sensitive to bright light so much that he would even turn the brightness down on the computer monitor.

I will be interested to learn what your son's physician thinks and what you find helpful with your son.

Please keep us updated with his progress.

[Callista]

Yoda, thank you for posting that. I couldn't have said it better myself.

The MMR vaccine, like any medical treatment, is not 100% safe. It does have side effects on occasion; it can cause a fever, a sore arm, in extreme cases an allergic reaction which could theoretically be deadly, if you were allergic enough. But it doesn't cause autism; and it's safer--by a factor of several thousand--than getting measles. Measles kills a child every three minutes.

The "connection" between the MMR vaccine and autism is spurious; but I can see why it's such an easy mistake to make. Autism first shows up most obviously when the child is about the age that MMR vaccine is given--when developmental demands on the toddler include skills that are weakest in autistic children, such as talking and playing with others. Then the entire blame falls on the coincidence of vaccine plus newly encountered developmental challenges, plus the stress of being a toddler--which, believe it or not, can be extreme. (Like many autistic people, I "lose skills" while under stress; that is, I can't do some of the things I can do when I'm feeling relaxed and healthy. The stress of being a toddler and all of those expectations can send some autistic kids into this kind of "resource-saving" mode wherein they cannot marshal all of their abilities simultaneously.)

Twin and adoption studies have shown pretty categorically that the heritability of autism is somewhere from 85% to 95%; that is, the cause for any given case, on average, will include 85% to 95% genetic factors; this is higher than any other neurological condition that cannot be traced to a single gene. (Rett syndrome, the one kind of autism that is traceable to a single gene, is 100% genetic in origin.) The rest can be things like the mother's having had enough to eat, maternal drug use during pregnancy, or prematurity and other complications during pregnancy. Ironically, one of those complications is congenital rubella syndrome, which raises the risk of autism several times over if the mother has rubella during pregnancy--which can be avoided if the mother has an MMR vaccination before becoming pregnant.

When home videos of autistic children as infants are compared to videos of non-autistic children, the autistic infants, as early as three months of age, are significantly different from their typical peers. Autism is present from long before the MMR vaccine; in fact, it is probably present in the structure of the developing brain by the first two or three months of pregnancy. When a child is autistic, it is highly unlikely that anything the parents did could have changed it (barring things like drinking heavily or starving oneself during pregnancy, which is a bad idea in any case).

So the parents should not blame themselves. It wasn't a vaccine; it wasn't anything you did. You didn't "refrigerate" your child or poison him. He has been autistic all along, and it's just now becoming obvious.

Back to the actual boy in question. At twelve, I didn't have any friends, either, and loved studying physics more than anything. I was specialized in science much the way he specialized in math, and understood fairly advanced topics earlier than other students. It is not uncommon for us to be quite sensitive to the idea that we might have hurt someone; when you can't tell whether you have hurt someone by looking at them (face-reading is difficult) it can be crushing to find out that you have, later on.

Sensitivity to one's environment is quite common but there are many workarounds. The major plan-of-attack is usually to limit exposure to those sensory experiences which can overwhelm you, in a similar way that someone who has very pale skin is wise to avoid spending long periods of time in the sun. There are many small adjustments that can be made; most of them cost little or nothing. Earplugs, headphones, moving away from loud noise; sunglasses, moving away from bright light; comfortable clothing of a material that "feels right"; cutting tags out; wearing clothing a size too large (or comfortably tight, depending on preference). Reducing unnecessary sensory overload can help you tolerate it when you really need to.

Should you be worried? No more than about any child. The teen years are hard on anyone, though; and it wouldn't surprise me if he, like many autistics, experiences bullying and rejection in adolescence. If he learns not to care about what others think of him, this will be much easier to survive; but keeping communication open with him to discuss anything that is on his mind will always be important.

[hatteras duck]

Below is a link to an article by Dr. Mary Megson on how MMR vaccine depletes the body's store of Vitamin A. (CLO).

I put my son on this at age 6 and he potty trained himself in a week. And two weeks later he said his belly felt better.

His original measles titre was: 1245% higher that what the govt said was to be classified as immune. It is now still high but at 276%.

http://www.megson.com/readings/MedicalHypothesis.pdf

The Role of Vaccinations in G-Alpha Protein Defects
When the live viral measles vaccine is given, it depletes the children of their existing supply of Vitamin
A (13), which negatively impacts the retinoid receptors. Natural Vitamin A, in the cis form, is important
for activation of T and B cells for long-term immune memory to develop (14) and is necessary for
natural killer cell function (15). Scrimshaw, et al. (1968) reviewed over 50 studies of infection and
nutrition and wrote, "no nutritional deficiency in the animal kingdom is more consistently synergistic
with infection than that of Vitamin A" (16).
If artificial Vitamin A Palmitate binds the now free G-alpha protein, it deactivates by 90% the "off
switch" for multiple metabolic pathways, involved in vision and cell growth, and disrupts hormonal
regulation and metabolism of lipids, protein and glycogen (17). Measles, mumps and rubella titers are
either significantly elevated or negative, in spite of one or two doses of the vaccine given to many of
these children. Fish oils contain one retinoid metabolite, alpha 14 hydroxyretroretinol that has a role in
T-cell activation, vision and growth of lymphoblasts (18). Further research is needed to understand the
complete role of these metabolites in the immune system.
At 18 months of age, when the pertussis toxin is added, as "lymphocytosis proliferating factor," it
creates a chronic autoimmune monocytic infiltration of the lamina propia in the gut mucosa (19) and
may disconnect the G-alpha protein pathways, leaving some G-alpha modulated pathways unopposed.
Consequently, the non-specific branch of the immune system is turned on, and without retinoid

switching, cannot be down-regulated. The metabolic consequences could be far-reaching.

[hatteras duck]

follows is an article presented to congress in 2000 by Dr. Benard Rimland -

4. They claim that autism naturally occurs at about 18 months, when the MMR is routinely given, so the association is merely coincidental and not causal. But the onset of autism at 18 months is a recent development. Autism starting at 18 months rose very sharply in the mid-1980s, when the MMR vaccine came into wide use. A coincidence? Hardly!

http://www.whale.to/v/rimland.html

[hatteras duck]

"As a clinician, my current belief which guides my practice with these children is that any child given the HepB vaccination at birth and subsequent boosters along with DPT has received unacceptable levels of neurotoxin in the form of the ethyl mercury in the thimerosal preservative used in the vaccine. In any child with a genetic immune susceptibility (probably about one in six) this sets off a series of events that injure the brain-gut-immune system. By the time they are ready to receive the MMR vaccination, their immune system is so impaired in a great number of these children that the triple vaccine cannot be handled by the now dysfunctional immune system and they begin their obvious descent into the autistic spectrum disorder."---Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...128033-2116134

That is a link to her book: Children with Starving Brains

Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) is a very complex disease affecting multiple
major physiological systems. Psychological and genetic etiologies have been
researched for many years with applied behavioral analysis techniques the
only officially recognized treatment for autism other than drugs for
behavior control. There appears to be a genetic factor operating shown by
high incidence of affected siblings, high frequency of autoimmune disorders
in the mothers and other close relatives, and patterns (but not invariably)
of genetic markers in research studies. However, the understanding of how
genetics contribute to autism is still not known. Infectious (viral,
bacterial, and fungal) etiologies have all been proposed, as many children
show immune impairment from very early on. No one doubts the presence of
immune dysregulation in our developmentally delayed children, but more and
more clinicians who are working in this area are starting to feel that
toxins of various kinds may be the etiological triggers that start the
immune impairment in the first place, particularly toxic vaccinations
injected into infants with immature immune systems.

[Liberada]

Luckily we do have a pretty good open line of communication.. I will try to gain a better insight of his deeper feelings and maybe keep some type of journal. Or better yet, encourage him to keep one. If possible, keep one together! To work out any problems he may have. My husband and I have been known to do that, grown folk, passing a notebook back and forth for conversing on topics that were too uncomfortable to say out loud...or just to keep away from prying ears. Felt easier that way. Maybe it will work with him...if there is anything.

Thank you for all your help. I now I can always count on the people at PC. I'll definitely keep you posted.

[Callista]

Heh, there you go--you and your husband probably have some mild autistic traits yourselves, if writing's easier than talking when things get difficult! I have that same tendency; I communicate so much better in writing. When it comes down to it and I really need to communicate something, I'll write things down. I've been writing since I was seven years old and I'm still doing so today. It's paid off; my blog has an actual audience (!) and I tend to get close to perfect scores on essays in college.

I don't know if you've heard the term "broader autistic phenotype" before; it's a phenomenon you see in parents and siblings of autistic kids, where you'll have just these barely-detectable autistic traits... no disability, no real issues, but just some personality traits that remind you just a little of autism. I think that's a good thing; it helps parents and kids see eye to eye much more easily.

[tattoogirl33]

My son is 12, will be 13 in May. "They" tried to dx him with Asperger's at age 4 but I refused to allow him to be labled. Just recently (3 weeks ago) he was offically dx with Asperger's. He had many social issues with Bullies and such in 4th grade, along with obsessing over a girl. I pulled him from public school and home schooled him for his 5th grade yr. (he has a younger sister and brother who were still in public school). During this time we taught him social skills and how to deal with the rest of the world along with the normal academics. So when he bagan 6th grade he was again tested and found to be "gifted", with an IQ of 149 (Duh) and has since skipped the 7th grade. He is now with older children and is doing GREAT!! he's still a High Honors student but finally has friends who accept him. He will again skip a grade (10th) and graduate one month after turning 16.

Anyway, he has a lot in common with your son I swear!! I think it would also help your son to have someone "outside the box" to talk to.. This disorder is very emotionally exhausting especially since these people are so sensitive!

[tattoogirl33]

Originally Posted by Liberada

Can anyone tell me about my son? My husband thinks he was affected by the MMR vaccine he received when he was a baby. I read articles "proving" both sides of the story. Even read up on lead poisoning. My husband says he's fine but the more I read online, the more I wonder.

Here is what we know: He will be 12 on 11/22.

He wasn't a late walker in fact he started at about 7 months but at present he walks super pigeon toed and stumbles occasionally and runs only when necessary.

However, he was a slow talker. He started talking when he was about three. And still goes to speech therapy.

After the vaccine, he stopped making eye contact with me. With his father it was ok but he stopped with me. He's never showed me a true full on hug. Just kinda leaned into it like he had to. I'd understand a teenage boy not wanting to be embarrassed by his mom but 3, 4, 5, 6... they hug their moms. He never hugged me. His dad always says he never acted the same after the shots but never says what was different.

Eye contact is okay.

He's very sensitive. Always cried when he heard slow songs. Even always cried at hearing "Happy Birthday" song. Still pretty sensitive at 12.

He's 12 and has no school friends.

Has always played alone at recess.

Has always been Honor Roll and Principal's List. He just started 6th grade and takes algebra. He skipped math and advanced math. I didn't take algebra til 9th grade...but that was back in the stone age...and then it was optional. Got his report card today. 3 A's and 2 B's. I did good to get a C. ...so he didn't get it from me.

In the pick-up line after school seems to prefer to hang out with teachers rather than other students while he waits.

DISLIKES loud noises! Loud music, loud class room, lunch room, school bus. Prefers the quiet. My younger son is the same way about noises. I've picked him up before after school and he's cried telling me how loud the class was because there was a substitute.

Never bad manners, smart mouthed, talked back, anything like that. He's the white sheep of the family. Says please and thank you CONSTANTLY! Almost like he's been used to getting used to being punished if he didn't! And it's not that way! We're as laid back as they come! He's courteous to a fault! ...

He was in Boy Scouts for about a month and I told him the leader said he missed him during a meeting that he hadn't gone to (my younger son was in another group). That turned into a cry-fest that lasted until about 2am because he thought he hurt the mans feelings. That's how "sensitive" he is. (He missed a couple of meetings and was in an older group who was assigned 'homework' type duties. He already had plenty of school homework, hence the good grades he got. He thought that was plenty. His choice to quit.)

He doesn't obsess over things or have any ocd tendencies...but there was a blanket he had to have wrapped around him just so when he was younger. Not sure what he does now as he is 12 and prefers his privacy. Really not worried about OCD.

Should I be worried about anything? Or do I just have an incredibly bright, conscientious young man on my hands?

Should I make an appointment with his pediatrician? Or just chalk it up to growing pains?

Thank you for any insight you can give!

Off to bed now

One more thing, I KNOW vaccines had nothing to do with my son having Asperger's. He's been bright since birth!! (I did however read in early pregnancy with him that eatting fish during the last trimester helped with brain development, so I did this DAILY) IDK.. just love them and don't worry about a cause, help them with their futures

[Hellion]

Well I am rather new to this whole thing, because I only recently found out I have aspergers. But I would suggest making the appointment to find out what's going on with your kid the earlier you find out about things like this the better. I mean my childhood could have been a lot better if I had been diagnosed sooner. I thought for so long I was doing something terribly wrong and thats why people didn't like me. I would not want your child to go through that.

[Michah]

Hi there,

It was interesting to read others responses, never having been terribly concerned about MMR.

I know that a large part of my neurodiversity comes from genetics (that has been the focus of my research, if any). There is LFA, Aspergers Syndrome and HFA on my fathers side of the family.

What I found, is that I can have information pouring out of my ears, but it does not actually change how I cope. It might give some illumination to the history and neurological wiring, but it does not create peace or contentment. It is only through acceptance that I have been able to find any of those.

Your child will live long and prosper with a good self-esteem......in other words, the world is hard and loving in equal measure, but the resilience is there to cope, and feel GOOD about oneself. I lived for 36 years wanting to crawl out of my own skin, such was the discomfort in being me. I still struggle ( I was only dx about 8 months ago) but I got a good specialist psych now.

Take good care of your precious selves. Try and think little of the cause, and more of the solution. It is more peaceful.

Michah