[birdcrazy]

I am trying to understand empathy to support my case for aspergers. I cant figure out if I have it I seem to have most other symptoms.

One way I differ from normal autism is that I can read nonverbal cues. But I still have social difficulty so bad I used to get therapy. But I dont seem to care very much what happens to people unless they are very close to me. And I dont even know if getting close is against autism because I am close to my husband.

I just want empathy clairified.

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[Pandoren]

Autism is a spectrum so a lot of "symptoms" affect some people more than others. It isn't a black and white case of "autistic people lack empathy" and if you have empathy, you can't be autistic. You can have empathy, ranging from "sometimes" "a little bit" "under certain circumstances" right up to what is expected of someone neurotypical.

I have some capacity for empathy. Sometimes it does concern me if someone is upset. If someone breaks a leg or loses someone close to them, I can feel sad for them or sympathetic towards them. Other times I couldn't give a monkey's behind, or I may sympathise but not really want to hear about it. I have had only a tiny few people I've ever really had a close bond to, and those include an old man and a rabbit.

[The_little_didgee]

I think the apparent lack of empathy we have comes mainly from deficits in theory of mind. When you have problems imagining what the other person is feeling, it makes it a lot harder to empathize. Lack of interest in people, alexithymia, and difficulties with the interpretation of nonverbal communication also influence one's ability to empathize with others.

I have the ability to feel empathy, but it tends to be delayed. It surfaces when I think about the situation rather then at the time I need to express it. This makes me appear cold and distant. Sometimes, it never comes, because I cannot relate to the experience. This convinced me, I had psychopathic traits for years.

[-jimi-]

What do you mean exactly when you say you can read nonverbal cues?

[manwithnofriends]

Originally Posted by The_little_didgee

I think the apparent lack of empathy we have comes mainly from deficits in theory of mind. When you have problems imagining what the other person is feeling, it makes it a lot harder to empathize. Lack of interest in people, alexithymia, and difficulties with the interpretation of nonverbal communication also influence one's ability to empathize with others.

I have the ability to feel empathy, but it tends to be delayed. It surfaces when I think about the situation rather then at the time I need to express it. This makes me appear cold and distant. Sometimes, it never comes, because I cannot relate to the experience. This convinced me for years, I was a psychopath.

Most psychopaths refuse to admit that they have any problem. They just continue to do typically psychopathic things in their lives without being aware of them.

[The_little_didgee]

Oops. My mistake.

[birdcrazy]

I can look at others and tell if they are happy or sad based upon expression alone.

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[rosska]

Originally Posted by birdcrazy

I can look at others and tell if they are happy or sad based upon expression alone.

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As has been said already, it's called a "Spectrum" for a reason. We all have varying symptoms at varying degrees of intensity. Also for the case of Aspies, we're usually very intelligent, we just lack the ability to express ourselves well so people tend to think we're not. This is why I get frustrated when people say things like "oh you wouldn't know, you seem to speak ok to me"... All I can think to that is "well thank you for assuming I spent the last 27 years with my eyes shut, not learning a thing".

Some people have this misconception that we can't understand social queues, full stop. That's not always the case, after all, by the time we're adults we've had a very long time to learn from all of our social failures, to learn the unique facial queues of our family and close friends. I'm usually pretty good at picking up on non verbal queues such as facial expressions of my friends or family. Put me in a room with a stranger though and I wouldn't be so sure. I may eventually realise, but usually hours later when I'm "replaying" the conversation over in my head and I notice the things that my brain couldn't pick up on at the time of the conversation because it was too busy trying to listen to what the person was saying.

That said, sometimes even with close family and friends I can have a delayed response to facial queues. A great example of this happened yesterday; my mum told me she had lost 6lb, to which I replied "God that'll be because you've been sick this week", which I figured was the 'reassurance' she was looking for because she had in fact been rather unwell.
After I said it, I noticed her facial expression change, which then made my brain reprocess what she had said at first, that was when I realised she had her lips curved up slightly and her eyes were wider apart, this is an expression of happiness in my mother. She had in fact been mentioning it out of joy that she had lost weight without trying and I then pooped on her parade because my logical brain responded before processing all of the information.

As for empathy, this is another common misconception that people on the spectrum can't empathise. In fact, recent studies have shown that Aspies in particular may be hypersensitive to the emotions of others in part due to our common alexithymia. With the inability to describe or express our own emotions, we have a tendency to 'take on' the emotions of those around us. For example, I've always had problems where if my friend or a family member is depressed, I end up feeling this hollow nagging feeling inside which I associate with sadness. It can sometimes last for days or weeks. Now that I understand it all better, there are times where I intentionally distance myself from people if I know they are depressed.

That may sound a little harsh, but to me it's the only defence I have to keep my own emotions stable, because I don't experience emotions in a technicolour fashion like NTs, I usually get one emotion at a time which when it comes to sadness is not an enjoyable experience.

I hope this post is of help, but I'm not overly sure if it will be or not. I feel I may have rambled.

[-jimi-]

Originally Posted by birdcrazy

I can look at others and tell if they are happy or sad based upon expression alone.

Most high functioning aspies can do this. I know smile means happy, frown and tears is sad. Not to make a joke out of it, I can also be affected by other people's expressions. I can feel sad if there is enough expressed sadness, I can laugh quite easily if someone laughs.

Some aspies said to be lower functioning than me can read more emotion than me because they learned what details to look for in someone's face. I just take it in as a whole which actually makes me worse at it, even if I do it the NT way... They might have better compensating skills at this. What I have a problem with is more subtle expressions. When someone expresses something they really don't want to express, or a mixed emotion, or just a vague one I'm lost.

I don't really believe in the basic emotions and their expressions, but if we take them as an example I don't recognize fear and disgust. I see them both as anger or I might think fear is surprise. Also I think all people look grumpy when others say they are neutral.

About empathy... wow LOL. I belong to an Asperger's forum and they pride themselves with having empathy and I think they really do even if it might not come the same path compared to "normal". I'm the odd one out there. I'm not an empath. They feel people like me are wrong somehow, because aspies DO feel empathy LOL. So I guess it depends on which aspie clan you belong to.

[birdcrazy]

I am just scrutinizing myself. I have had mental health professionals say I have it and some say I dont. My current doctor and last doctor both said they are unsure I have it but a diagnosis wouldnt help me so they dont want to find out, they said that they are focused on my mood problems. I want to know because it would explain some of my behaviors.

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[-jimi-]

If you really have Asperger's that is important for treating your mood problems. People on the autism spectrum don't always have common reactions to meds and dosages might have to be different. Also, if you are in therapy what works for a non aspie might not work for an aspie.

And, having a Sonic siggy... speaks for itself!

[rosska]

Originally Posted by birdcrazy

I am just scrutinizing myself. I have had mental health professionals say I have it and some say I dont. My current doctor and last doctor both said they are unsure I have it but a diagnosis wouldnt help me so they dont want to find out, they said that they are focused on my mood problems. I want to know because it would explain some of my behaviors.

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I don't really understand how they could say it's not important. For one, if you have mood problems a lot of that could be caused by the autism/aspergers. Also, if you're taking meds they should know your full history and if that includes being on the spectrum it would more than likely require adjustments to the medications. Heck my PDoc actually said she didn't want to address any of my other issues until she had a positive diagnosis of Aspergers because it would have a big effect on the treatments she would use, that was why she referred me to an Autism clinic for official diagnosis before seeing me again.

[birdcrazy]

Well to be specific, my last doctor said it didnt matter and he didnt know, my current doctor said she didnt know. They dont know about the sonic stuff but they tried to diagnose me with "OCD over birds" and that is still in my profile and kind of ignorant.

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[Hellion]

I have been diagnosed with aspergers, and I have plenty of empathy maybe even too much...its the trying to express it that's the hard part. I suck at outwardly expressing it, so I am sure sometimes people don't see that I feel much empathy. Or I just don't know what to say that would help and not make it worse.

[-jimi-]

Calling an interest OCD is so ignorant. Interests and hobbies with Asperger's are often called special interests because sometimes they get very important for the person and the person really goes deep with it and learns everything. It has nothing to do with OCD, it has to do with being able to focus a lot and focus on a narrow aspect of something.

OCD isn't an interest, OCD is horror. It makes you do things you hate doing like scalding your hands under hot water because of "germs" or refolding a sheet 10 million times because it doesn't feel right and perfect, or doing things like having to step into a room with the right foot first or "the world will come to an end".

Sometimes I wish experts were real experts.

[rosska]

Originally Posted by jimi...

Calling an interest OCD is so ignorant. Interests and hobbies with Asperger's are often called special interests because sometimes they get very important for the person and the person really goes deep with it and learns everything. It has nothing to do with OCD, it has to do with being able to focus a lot and focus on a narrow aspect of something.

OCD isn't an interest, OCD is horror. It makes you do things you hate doing like scalding your hands under hot water because of "germs" or refolding a sheet 10 million times because it doesn't feel right and perfect, or doing things like having to step into a room with the right foot first or "the world will come to an end".

Sometimes I wish experts were real experts.

I agree, what we dub special interests may appear to be obsessions to people who aren't on the spectrum, but they are not something that falls under OCD.

Though just to be a douche (sorry, I don't mean to be, it's just I have OCD so feel I should mention this) the type of OCD you've listed is only one of four distinct types of OCD. Not all OCD sufferers have that type.

The four types of OCD are;
Checking,
Contamination/Mental Contamination,
Hoarding,
Ruminations/Intrusive Thoughts.

Checking and the Contamination/Mental Contamination variants are the most stereotypical views of OCD used in TV and by the media. It's what everybody assumes OCD is limited to, but it is not.

Hoarding

Pretty self explanatory, it's when people become obsessed with keeping every little piece of useless rubbish they've ever owned/found/rescued from bins.

Ruminations/Intrusive Thoughts

Probably the least known about and least understood because people don't see it.

Ruminations refers to obsessional thoughts about questions or themes which don't have any productive value, for instance somebody may become obsessed with the question of "what happens after we die". They could spend weeks thinking about nothing else, researching all possible evidence, philosophies, religious details etc and still never reach a conclusion (because it's something we can't ever really know).

Intrusive Thoughts, in the spectrum of OCD, are where a person generally suffers with obsessional thoughts that are repetitive, disturbing and often horrific and repugnant in nature. For example, thoughts of causing violent or sexual harm to loved ones.

Because the intrusive thoughts are repetitive and not voluntarily produced, they cause the sufferer extreme distress - the very idea that they are capable of having such thoughts in the first place can be horrifying. However, what we do know is that people with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder are the least likely people to actually act on the thoughts, partly because they find them so repugnant and go to great lengths to avoid them and prevent them happening.

In addition to the four main types, there are also many sub categories.

Sorry, had to share.

[Hellion]

I feel like I get stuck ruminating over useless things a lot and I get intrusive thoughts...not sure its severe enough to be considered OCD though, I thought that was just the autism combined with the anxiety that caused that.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by birdcrazy

I can look at others and tell if they are happy or sad based upon expression alone.

Empathy is going behind the expression and being able to tell degree and truth of the expression. I can smile at you at the same time something is bothering me elsewhere in my life or I can look "thoughtful" and if you can only tell happy/sad, that will generally look sad which may not be the case at all.

Empathy is having had a similar feeling about a similar event the person is discussing and not "feeling sorry for", but just "feeling for" the other's difficulty, pain, or struggle. It's not taking on the other person's feelings or experience as one's own but recognizing I am like the other person, have emotionally "been there, felt that". It is being able to sit with the other person while they share their difficulties and not be overwhelmed by them or distracted by one's own.

[-jimi-]

Originally Posted by rosska

Though just to be a douche (sorry, I don't mean to be, it's just I have OCD so feel I should mention this) the type of OCD you've listed is only one of four distinct types of OCD. Not all OCD sufferers have that type.

I'm glad you did a more extensive take. I only used a few examples. I have had OCD most of my life and I have "tried" most forms of it unfortunately. The thing I have not had too much is germ phobia (just a little), but the rest... yea. Bah.

We hate OCD, right?

I love my interests!! They make me feel alive!!

[rosska]

Originally Posted by Hellion

I feel like I get stuck ruminating over useless things a lot and I get intrusive thoughts...not sure its severe enough to be considered OCD though, I thought that was just the autism combined with the anxiety that caused that.

People on the spectrum are 70% more likely to suffer from OCD than people not on the spectrum, probably because of our natural tendencies to follow repetition of thoughts. Whilst it is possible to have these without OCD, they get classified as OCD when they become something that you can't control. If you spend more than two hours a day thinking about such things, they class that as obsessive.

Originally Posted by jimi...

I'm glad you did a more extensive take. I only used a few examples. I have had OCD most of my life and I have "tried" most forms of it unfortunately. The thing I have not had too much is germ phobia (just a little), but the rest... yea. Bah.

We hate OCD, right?

I love my interests!! They make me feel alive!!

Hahaha, yeah I'm much the same. When I was a kid I was obsessed with checking and counting forms, I had to do everything in fours; lights, doors, eating... the list goes on. Over my life though, that has reduced significantly, now it's more about the Ruminations and Intrusive Thoughts, I think I preferred the counting lol.

OCD is a *****, yep!

Indeed, I love my interests, even when they take all of my time and I don't want to do anything else, they give me a lot of pleasure and comfort. People just don't understand it haha.

[birdcrazy]

I just get obsessed over topics though to the point where I might do stupid things to persue that topic, like taking a company car to get a new Sonic game without permission.

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[Aspies32]

We have sympathy just not like a normy does. like myself I can come off a little blunt or like I'm not paying attention when someone is talking, but then I can recite every word that person said an hour later. Emotional ques? they are kind of off with me. I usually look at peoples faces when I talk to them now but sometimes they ask me if I'm staring at them. I learned I should tell them no I'm watching so I can understand your emotions you show in your face. A lot of times I'm off so I go by their reactions to my emotions and I also ask them how they feel. Don't be afraid to ask if you don't get it my mom always told me . If it wasn't for my mom I wouldn't be has high functioning as I am today. Yeah to mom's!

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by The_little_didgee

I have the ability to feel empathy, but it tends to be delayed. It surfaces when I think about the situation rather then at the time I need to express it. This makes me appear cold and distant. Sometimes, it never comes, because I cannot relate to the experience. This convinced me, I had psychopathic traits for years.

I just wanted to say thank you for posting this. I can relate.