Do I sound asperger's?

Just read about C-PTSD, very interesting stuff. Thanks for the post. Also describes me somewhat well... even if I am ASD (though not dxed) I have a lot of PD-like deeply entrenched and extremely maladaptive defense mechanisms.

Seems like ASD characteristics in childhood (even sub-aspergers-dxable) could potentially help to precipitate a PD, especially if undiagnosed and unaddressed (like at least a caregiver lovingly helping you through your ASD issues, trying hard to engage you, etc.). Seems much harder for a child with mild ASD to develop in an emotionally healthy way in an identical situation.

Therefore it seems likely that someone could have mild ASD and also C-PTSD or BPD (for example)... and in this situation some of the C-PTSD or BPD symptoms could easily be falsely attributed to ASD. In fact it would be next to impossible to determine what was what.

I know books and most psychiatrists say that, but that was not true for me. I was diagnosed with BPD when I was 16. Some doctors still think I have it, some don't. And I was in a DBT group of girls under 18 with BPD, and knew many girls at my residential treatment centre with BPD under 18 as well. Unless our doctors were wrong... (We all had different ones)

From wikipedia:

"Clinicians are discouraged from diagnosing anyone with BPD before the age of 18, due to the normal ups and downs of adolescence and a still-developing personality. However, BPD can sometimes be diagnosed before age 18, in which case the features must have been present and consistent for at least 1 year.

"A BPD diagnosis in adolescence might predict that the disorder will continue into adulthood. Among adolescents who warrant a BPD diagnosis, there appears to be one group in which the disorder remains stable over time, and another group in which the individuals move in and out of the diagnosis."

Personality disorders develop when you're young but doctors wait until you're older to officially Dx them because some traits are more "normal" at a younger age or would fall under a different disorder simply because they're showing up at a different stage in life. Or because technically children's personalities are still developing, if that makes sense. For example, a child might be Dx'd with conduct disorder or ODD and get an antisocial personality disorder diagnosis as an adult. A child might have IED and get a BPD as an adult, etc. At least that's what I've gathered.
So in summary, yes you can develop a personality disorder from a young age but most doctors will wait until your late teens to diagnose it as such.

This way of thinking made me wonder if something more was really going on with me. For years I looked for disorders that described my experience and could not find any until I came across ASD.

-----

A clinician familiar with ASD can differentiate it from BPD. The two have some similarities but they are superficial.

I need to point out people with ASD usually have problems managing their emotions because they have difficulties in interpreting other people's body language. When you cannot figure out what another person is feeling, it makes responding to the situation confusing. People with BPD can interpret those cues, which are often shaped to fit in with their fears of abandonment. Abandonment motivates the behaviors seen in BPD. This usually isn't the case with ASD.

People with BPD don't have a stable identity. They tend to find it in other people. This isn't a feature of ASD.

Communication is an issue with both disorders.

Relationships are often difficult for people with ASD because they have problems with communication and managing their emotions. Their interests can be consuming. Sometimes sensory issues can make intimate relations difficult. Many people with ASD don't feel the need to form intimate relationships and friendships.

A lot of people with ASD experience bullying. This can cause bitterness, feelings of isolation, anger and depression, which can appear to be BPD especially in an adolescent. If it is allowed to continue people will often develop negative self attitudes and low self-esteem. Fitting in, conforming, and being a part of a group are important to adolescents.

Life can be really hard for people with ASD, since society emphasizes personality traits that they don't usually possess such as charisma.

BPD, which mainly describes a copying style, emerges in early adulthood. ASD emerges in childhood and has different 'signs' than BPD. For example stimming, speech delays, echolalia, and obsessions.

BPD traits:

Feelings of abandonment
Poor sense of self
Intense and chaotic relationships (Usu. indicated by interactions with a therapist)
Impulsivity and recklessness
Trouble regulating emotions (Usu. abrupt changes that are extreme and vary throughout the day)
Tends to always be in crisis
Chronic suicidal ideation

People often get this diagnosis based on one behavior: self injury. Note: BPD is the only diagnosis in the DSM that lists self injury as a criterion.

ASD traits:

Communication (verbal and nonverbal) deficits
Perspective thinking
Social interactions
Obsessive or intense interests
Repetitive behaviors
Need for routine
Trouble with abstract language
Sensory issues
-----

I was one of those people who was mistakenly diagnosed with BPD. The stigma associated with the disorder left me traumatized, because it permitted clinicians to treat me poorly. They all assumed I was manipulative, evil, and seeking attention. In reality, I was none of that. I was just a sad teenager who was bullied and missed my family. At the time I was living away from my family while I attended a private school.

The disorder completely failed to describe my experience.

I would be very careful with this disorder. Well intending clinicians can be guided by it and look for explanations that conform to its image. They did it to me by trying to tell me I was sexually abused, which I was not. The lady felt my touch aversion (skin to skin) and my lack of interest in sexual relationships was due to trauma I was unaware of. This is dangerous.

Years later, I was diagnosed with ASD. Finally, I had a description that made sense and was accurate. BPD failed to describe my obsessions, my need to be alone a lot, my sensory issues such as acute hearing and smell, my difficulties with body language, and other things such as recognizing familiar faces. BPD certainly did not come close to explaining why I loved to spin my toys, why I had speech and apparent hearing issues, trouble adjusting to new routines and my social difficulties in school, especially when I was very young.

That was extremely dangerous for your psychiatrist to tell you that you were sexually abused and didn't remember it... people have been know to manufacture false memories of abuse when put in that situation even to the point of bringing charges against innocent fathers, uncles, etc. It's a damn shame that psychs are still doing things like that in this day in age with the dangers of it being know based on reliable studies and so forth... they should wait for the patient to introduce the idea or recall some vague memory of possible abuse before trying to shove it down their throat.

I thought your summary of difference was very good overall. The only reason people with ASD have trouble with emotional regulation is not just the interpretation of body language though. Alexithymia (which may be present in both conditions) often leads to poor emotional regulation in people with asperger's as well. Alexithymia also impairs ability to understand / fully appreciate the emotional states of yourself and others and therefore can impair effective social interaction to a significant degree (in people with or without ASD). Alexithymia is very interesting, here is the wikipedia article if anyone is interested: Alexithymia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Impaired theory of mind (aka cognitive empathy) is also more indicative of ASD vs BPD and accounts for much of the social troubles of people with ASD (though it's tied in with difficulty interpreting social cues and body language which you did mention).

Like you said with the "tends to always be in crisis" point, outward histrionics seem to be a core part of BPD that is mostly missing in ASD. People with ASD, especially if bullied and rejected, could definitely stew about their problems and stuff but BPD seems to be defined by attention-seeking histrionics. I think maybe BPD men tend to be less like that though... I think you can be BPD without self-injury and without an especially high level of acting out behavior (more likely for men who are trained by society to be stoic and not outwardly display emotions).

Not trying to be critical and nitpicky (although being nickpicky would reaffirm my possible ASD status, haha) but just trying to add to the discussion. Having been diagnosed with both I would be interested to hear your opinion on these points as you likely know more than I do.

This is why people need to be careful.

Not every behavior has a reason or a psychological explanation. For example, some people have an anxiety disorder because it is a part of their natural disposition.

Good points. Two other things to consider are personality and environment.

I have trouble with the diagnosis and description of BPD. It is much too broad.

BPD does a poor job at describing gender differences. Perhaps antisocial PD is the male manifestation of BPD.

The way it is diagnosed is flawed. The traits should be grouped together (dimensions) rather than meeting a minimum requirement (5/9) that is arbitrary. The APA admitted it was.

So many people are self diagnosing who don't meet the minimum criteria. Reading up on disorders is fine, but the diagnosing should always be left to clinicians.

We all exhibit BPD traits from time to time. It only becomes a problem if it interferes with life. It must be chronic and present in all contexts, not just the therapist's office or during a stressful life event. Note: Some people get the diagnosis if they don't get along with their therapist/psychiatrist.

People with ASD tend to get a personality disorder diagnosis before they find out about their ASD. This is especially true for people born prior to the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Personality disorders seem to be a description of people with either a sensitive or indifferent temperament who experienced trauma in early life. People who fall in the middle don't seem to attract these diagnoses even if they have experienced a trauma.

I agree that BPD is severely lacking in recognition of gender differences. It's interesting to think of it as the female anti-social PD. Also the stigma is bad... it's somewhat well-founded if the person DOES have full-blown BPD because I truly think they can be manipulative of therapists although this could be true of other PDs as well like NPD or Antisocial PD.

I also agree that ASD has been misdiagnosed as PDs over the years (schizoid, avoidant, bpd, schizotypal, maybe OCD). I think I would have likely been diagnosed with aspergers as a kid if it was around (born in 84) but I don't think it's easy to diagnose me now. Once you're this age so many of the symptoms are hidden beneath PD characteristics that develop as a result of aspergers... you eventually learn not to act like a spaz and try to fit in then the social anxiety, emotional supression, various defense mechanisms, etc. can set in to a point where the ASD can become almost unrecognizable.

Also it's interesting how some people experience terrible trauma and come out okay, yet some can be emotionally destroyed by comparatively minor trauma. I think temperament plays a huge role in development of PDs (which are really just extremely maladaptive coping mechanisms).

Hi I am BP 1 and been in a deep depression for about a year. As for your lack of empathy could be the depression. I was so worried that I feared I might be a narcissist, with my lack of empathy. If you are emotionally drained all your resources are used up trying to keep yourself upright. Also I heard that a long depression can deplete your serotonin in your brain which makes you emotionally flat and lack of joy or pleasure. Not that I am a expert but I have experienced this and what I have been told.

good luck, hope this helps

mindy1

That makes sense, and I was more just saying people aren't born with personality disorders....but people are born with autism so that is one difference between personality disorders and autism.

You can, however, be born with a predisposition to personality disorders, based on family history.

Yeah genetics are one of the determining factors.

My H who I finally left 7 years ago after 33 years of a bad marriage, was Dx'ed with adult ADD (he's now 62) several years before I left him. Sad because throughout the marriage it felt like I was living in some levels of emotional abuse with passive aggressive behavior.......but after I started looking into aspergers.....I can look back at things his parents said about him....& things that I experienced in the marriage.....& wow....it has been the only thing that actually describes all the impossible areas of our marriage.....with the addition that he is totally financially irresponsible...but that's because of his inability to communicate when problems come up.....he got a letter from the IRS & let it go 10 months without saying anything to me or even calling the IRS to ask them about it just because he couldn't figure out what they were talking about. It wasn't until I had the mail all forwarded to MY farm that I bought after leaving him that I got the next letter from the IRS....what a shock.......the only reason he survived through all those years of our marriage was because I was always there to cover him....I tried time & time again to get him to handle difficult issues that came up thinking like with myself..the more practice I got the better I got at it.....only he totally shuts down & even when he did make calls, I would have to go back & fix the messes he made.

So now, I'm putting together a comprehensive analysis of what went on & am faxing it to his PDOC (the one we both had when I was living there) & because he's been running his (our joint CU account in the negative $1600+ for several years now....I finally filed a report with Adult Protective Services in hopes that he can get evaluated & they can assign a conservator to his financial part of his life. He had refused to follow his pdoc's suggestion of getting a neurological work up way back 7 years ago when the IRS issue arose. I didn't totally understand but it does seem like he totally shut down after I left. He said that he never believed that I wouldn't continue tolerating him for the rest of our lives on the drive. I demanded that everything be in writing & I would write an email with information & it was too long for him to comprehend so I started itemizing everything....& he still couldn't do the things I requested correctly....it was like he was in a totally other world....the world I had glimpses of during our marriage ended up taking over. Turns out the things he can do now are only the things that are a pattern....like going out to the ranch & feeding the horses. He was a firmware engineer for about 20 years...but each company he was at there were personality conflicts or issues of his work & he ended up being let go. I doubt that I can get his parents cooperation to help with information from his childhood to help with a Dx of aspergers.....for a 62 year old man....that's not easy...but the Dx would definitely help give the proof of the need for the conservator. Sad that it made for such a horrible marriage......but understanding that there was a cause for him being the way he was definitely makes me NOT angry at him any longer....I would never go back & live with him again & the divorce is manditory.....but I want to see him get the help he needs & not have the horrible time that he has being unable to really take care of himself mostly financially yet I have no idea as one lady I talked to trying to find out how to go about getting a conservator....who we knew all the years we lived in our last home.....she saw him in church the other sunday & said that he looked horrible (whatever that means).....so I really don't know what all is going on.

I can definitely understand how personality disorders can get mixed up with aspergers in certain ways.....but what I have found was that none of the other possibilities ever 100% explained the situation like the aspergers has.......not the difficult part....getting the DX & getting help for him from 2100 miles away.

Hey, borderline seems popular around here! A bit drastic IMHO - I recognise a lot of these traits - hope the quiz helps you on your way to a diagnosis.

BPD behaviors are motivated by fears of abandonment and profound identity issues. This usually doesn't happen in ASD, unless the person has BPD or complex PTSD.

Emotional dysregulation in ASD is very different from BPD. In BPD emotions are primarily influenced by identity reasons (tends to depend on what others think of them) and fears of abandonment. In ASD, it is usually due to the inability to imagine what others feel (taking perspective), sensory issues, and difficulties with reading nonverbal cues. The two disorders do have one trait in common, a sensitive disposition. When slighted both can react in ways that can be interpreted as emotional dysregulation.

If BPD is diagnosed properly, one would have four core traits: impulsivity, identity issues, emotional dysregulation, and extreme fears of abandonment (which is very different from separation anxiety).

A lot of people with ASD, who have attempted suicide a few times, and/or have self-injured, get diagnosed with BPD, even though they do not possess the core traits.

My psychiatrist told me anytime someone complains about feeling empty, alienated and socially isolated, it suggests BPD.

I feel empty, alienated and (am by definition) socially isolated so maybe I have BPD. I also have considered complex PTSD.

Doesn't it seem like mild ASD (enough for serious social problems and issues connecting with others, but not enough to "not care" about these things) could cause feelings of emptiness, alienation and social isolation (either feeling socially isolated from not fitting in or actual self-imposed isolation because of repeated rejection)?

Maybe I am just illustrating how mild ASD could lead to a PD... it just seems that BPD or Avoidant PD could be easily "caused" by growing up ASD. Maybe also Schizoid PD. And certainly complex PTSD.

I have somewhat of a working theory that my problems are a combo of mild ASD and a mix of PD traits (PD-NOS or complex PD with traits of multiple PDs). As a kid I was very ASD-like and now it seems my problems are just a cluster-***** that is really hard to sort out.

Thanks for the post, good info.

Very informative post, though there are a few points I'm not too sure I would agree with.

The last line specifically sticks out, I think it was wrong of a psychiatrist to say that. For one, numerous mental health disorders have over lapping symptoms and quite a lot of them include those three key points. I am diagnosed with Asperger's, but I also have other mental health problems which have developed over the years due to not being diagnosed until I was an adult.

I can frequently feel almost 'empty'. Though it's not a sign of BPD, it's because I suffer from Dysthymia which is a state of chronic depression. Though not as severe as Manic Depressive Disorder, it lasts much longer (usually years, sometimes forever). Also, unlike MDD, it is usually resistant to anti depressant medication.

I also frequently feel alienated and isolated, though that's caused by years of failed social interactions caused by my AS. Years of not knowing why people didn't understand me and why I never understood them. Over the years I have pulled away from most social interaction because I find it very strenuous and upsetting, though it does lead to increased feelings of isolation. Don't get me wrong, I don't get the same cravings to be around people that a lot of people not on the spectrum seem to get, but it doesn't mean I want to spend my entire life on my own.

Well said. Up until I saw this post I was getting a little ticked that all the posters seemed to be telling her she has BPD when it may very well be ASD. 14 years ago I had a social worker/counselor suggest I might have BPD so I found out all I could on it and next time told her it really didn't fit with my experiences and history. Fortunately it was just a suggestion on her part and she trusted me that I was not in denial and agreed that we don't need to put me in a box that doesn't fit right, just maybe identify issues and enhance coping skills. I didn't know about aspergers then and if she knew, she didn't make the connection. But missing a ASD diagnosis is like a thousand times better than forcing a BPD diagnosis on an asperergian. You poor thing! How horrible what you endured! I am glad you survived. And thank you so very much for sharing.

Makes me so angry when so-called caring professionals act like this - how dare she! sorry you had to put up with all that rubbish. I have always trusted my own instincts over those of others no matter how 'professional' and this attitude saved me from a lot I know. It is also important to follow your own instincts as to who you talk to and how far you trust their advice.

Only a professional can diagnose you with an ASD or other disorder, and even they get it wrong.

From what you've written, I'd say you just have certain personality traits which make getting along with some people difficult. You sound introverted. I'd recommend reading a book called 'Quiet' by Susan Cain. Could be a real eye opener.

If you can accept your personality traits and put yourself in environments where they are useful to you than there's no need to look for a 'disorder' to explain your perffectly acceptable temperament.

Unfortunately most introverts are forced to be in extraverted environments which are completely alien to them, high school, office jobs etc etc so it's not suprising they feel disordered. So would an extravert if they were forced to sit quietly in a library all day long.

Hi brightspark, sounds like you might have AS, but with social anxiety disorder too. All of the AS symptoms don't manifest in everyone, there are many that don't occur in me. What sort of hobbies did you have as a child?

I'm sorry to interrupt this forum, but I had some questions about this as well. I am getting an assessment done in a few days , and I have been trying to figure out what I have for a while now. I can relate to a lot of what brightspark posted, with the exception with the part about empathy (sometimes I have a hard time finding the words to say to someone when I want to show them that I care, though). Because I have depression I can sometimes feel a bit empty, but I have never felt that I have lacked empathy. I can very easily connect to other people's emotions and feel for them (when I am not in an "empty" kind of depression) but I have had a difficult time for years with the issue of identity and connecting to others (when I was a teenager I had a very hard time "fitting in" and relating in certain ways, and as an adult I still have a hard time figuring out where I belong and who I am). I feel like at times I almost tried to fake who I was just to be somebody, or to pick an identity. I also used to think in a very black and white way, but I have found as an adult that I am more open. I have considered that I have disorders like Generalized Anxiety, OCD, Chronic Depression/Major Depression, and Bipolar II, but I have wondered about Asperger's as well because when I was a child it was brought up and then dismissed
(even though no proper assessment was ever done). I was
just wondering if anyone knows if anyone knows if the things I have mentioned could be characteristics of Asperger's, or if they are characteristics of anything that I haven't mentioned being a possibility?

It's not that someone with Asperger's lacks empathy for example, it's just that we cannot express it like a normal person would. Hence, we appear to others as having a lack of empathy. It's because we can't pick up the social cues that tell us when it's appropriate to express empathy or whichever emotion it is.

Sorry eglantine rose, I addressed my post on this thread to you, not Stbguy.

Please ignore this if it is repeated, but I thought I had sent it, but apparently it hasn't gone!
I was going to say, in reply to your post eglantinerose,that I have been posting on this forum, depression, and borderline pd.
They all share some experiences/issues.
I do know that immense relief can come from an explanation for our issues, but a dx can be tougher to obtain helpfully. Alot of damage can be done by professionals who follow a dogma, or follow 'fashions'. Mental health is plagued by this.
For eg I work with psychologists who dny the existence of adhd, as a neurological difference, and it's dodgy parenting!
Btw I don't agree with this.
I have depression, borderline traits (and some obsessional features, which can both help and destroy me.)
I would love someone to dx me, but in uk, you wait for 1 or 2 years, unless you present acutely, or pay alot for therapy, which may not help.
I struggle with my interpersonal issues, and never really could say why.
After reading posts on the above forums, I began to see myself in quite alot of them.
If you do/have read other forums, then some may resonate with you too.
Good luck