autism and manipulation

Accoring to my therapist I don’t have autism. (But I am diagnosed) Because I can manipulate people. However I know a lot of people with autism who can lie really well and are really consious of the way things they do affect people just like I am. What is your view?

My son has autism and mild retardation. He does lie but it's something like a little kid would do. For example, I found his dirty socks behind the toilet today. I don't wear sock and he was the only one using that bathroom. He tried to say it was not him but it was and I confronted him about it.

Just because you have autism or something like it you still accountable for your actions. Having an illness does not give you a free pass

There is no cookie cutter called autism. I am not a doctor, but generally speaking in most cases if you exhibit a certain number of signs, then you qualify for diagnosis. However lots of people are diagnosed with something because the signs all point in that direction and find out years later that the diagnosis was wrong. My perspective is..... It's just a label. As long as the tools you require are available and they're helping... Then great. You can call it monkey dance syndrome if you want, it means not too much to me.

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I've always thought people on the Autisum spectrum were usually very honest, downright blunt.

If you can lie, connive and manipulate I tend to agree with your therapist and would conclude you are not autistic.

Autisum is a kind of different wiring, meaning you cannot feel for others, cannot 'put yourself in anothers shoes'
Lie-telling can be seen as a real-world application of an understanding of others’ minds
Autistic people not understand the minds of others so lying is very unlikely.

Liars and manipulators have narcissistic traits.

Igenio
However I know a lot of people with autism who can lie really well and are really consious of the way things they do affect people just like I am. What is your view?

My view.
I disagree completely. That does not sound like autism at all.

Yeah from my experience those with autism see things very black and white. Gray is too difficult to decipher or understand, therefor brutal honesty is usually how they function (myslef included). Personally I would not even consider lying to manipulate a situation and often don't see it when other people do it. However I do believe that some aspies are sensitive in that they are aware of other people's feelings at time. They may not understand them, but they pick up that there is a nuance... Just not what that nuance is exactly.

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I have dealt with someone on the autism spectrum for years.

People on the spectrum can very but they do have feelings and they do know right from wrong. My son is high functioning and he does hold down a part time job.

What you have to understand is that they can be child like also.

I think the intense isolation that can come with autism, and the self-dependence that goes with that can lead to mild narcissism perhaps, which would explain why we might be able to manipulate people a little. But it is more a survival strategy I think to try and ensure that we get what we ask for and not a surprise. It's some measure of control because we like order and sameness.

I don't know about that so much. Being autistic is by definition a world of grey and not the black and white neurotypical people see. That's just in my opinion though, but I find it is NT's who are rigid and see things black and white, whilst we are not so convinced of things.

We are also painfully and deeply aware of other's feelings, we just cannot express it. We feel very much, trust me.

I agree. We are painfully aware. I can pick up on emotions, very quickly, I just don't know what to do with it.

I think with your response, you pointed out a previous observation I made that autism is not cut from one mold.
I know that for me there is a strong sense of justice (right from wrong) and that grey area, although I understand it very well, I do not relate with it well, I don't have the ability to use it to my advantage, and can be gullibly used at times because of that.

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If I want I can manipulate people's feelings and actions. It's actually not hard at all. Some people follow a quite strict script and if you are a strong pattern thinker (which MIGHT come with autism), you can master this. And if you think this is right or wrong, all people with autism do not have super high and rigid morals. All are not sensitive to other people's feelings.

Autism equals innocence in many people's eyes. You're just too dumb to lie! Right... I do however think it takes intelligence to understand and map out people's reactions. It's nothing a low functioning autistic person would do.

The truth is some people with autism manipulate with great success.

I know it is not a popular view.

Autism is not stupid, Put an any kid around some highly manipulative people and they will learn. Maybe painfully and maybe slowly, And it might not be the most efficient learning experience, And for that matter you can take courses on youtube to learn the basics of it,
Besides it is not like there is a science that breaks peoples behavior into measurable and black and white terms...is there? What was it called, Marketing, Psychology? Something like that.

My son is a teen with autism spectrum disorder and he lies, when I bug him about taking care of his room, etc.

Just like any other teen...

JosephR I agree. Autism is not a synonym for stupid. Manipulation is neither smart. Honest human reaction is complicated and owned by the individual. General norms are not hard to understand. I don't think humans follow any formula of feelings when it gets to true feelings and reactions. I think a person (any person) can be manipulative or lie to an extent. Whether they are successful or not is something else. In speaking of generalities I do not believe it comes naturally (instinctively) to anyone on the autism spectrum. It actually does not come naturally to children. Lying and Manipulation is a learned behaviour.

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I've had a few friends over the years with high-functioning autism or Asperger's and sometimes when they were nervous and trying to avoid trouble or stress they would lie. They just weren't very good at it. They didn't lie in like the AsPD sort of way. It was just when they were nervous or flustered or thought **** was gonna hit the fan or something, and they were trying to come up with the 'right' response to make the situation go away or something. It was its own flavor of lying and not malicious or parasitic in nature. I have known someone though who claimed to have Asperger's and I'm pretty sure they were just a run of the mill sociopath. I think that happens a lot in order to get more sympathy and free passes, and then it makes a bad name for people who are actually autistic.

My 2 cents.

The world favors manipulation. I used to live in that kind of world until I said enough is enough, and started a new chapter of my life. I had functioned fairly well in the NT world prior to that. Because it was easy for me to say my parts of the script to get the reaction I wanted. This is 13 years ago now.

When I dropped that, I became painfully aware that I basically lost most of my social skills. Without the script, the need to get a result, a life based on light and honesty, I was nothing. I was easy prey. I had no defense and I was treated very bad by some people (mostly emotionally). When you stop playing the game, you basically have nothing to replace it with. I was naive and thought the World would greet the better me as... the better me. Instead I was greeted as the freak and the victim, the loser and the one without worth and value.

So I do understand if people want to play the game.

It is much easier.

My son just fibs about cleanliness issues. He is just learning about puberty and hormones, acne,etc.

''I can pick up on emotions, very quickly, I just don't know what to do with it.''

this.

Someone said ''you can't know what I don't tell you''. I always do, I usually know exactly whether the other person thinks I'm crazy etc., I do however have trouble picking up what exactly is it they need or like hearing.

I can't manipulate, I can tell only very simple lies and I don't like to lie anyways. I can't imagine how my words will make another person think, I just say them automatically, and try not to hurt others' feelings, so I often talk about myself or something irrelevant.

Does this sound like autism?

I've seen two types of Asperger's, one type does not really respond with much emotion to other people's emotional display. But if they can get info about what the other person thinks and feels through words, they might be able to get a good cognitive picture of that person's state of mind.

The other type has a hard time mapping out others. But instead they have the instinct to immediate reflect the other person's expressed feelings within themselves.

There are other variations of course. But these are the main two I see.

Autism and I have a strange relationship. Twice in my life it has been a condition that had to be ruled out.

I have asperger's. I have really no idea how to manipulate anyone beyond telling a little lie and have someone believe it until I can no longer hide it and tell them the truth. I lied all the time when I was a kid, "No I didn't take a cookie from the jar" *has cookie crumbs everywhere*. That kind of thing. But I don't know if that would be manipulative or just not wanting to get into trouble. I don't know how to get people to do what I want them to do. Often people do opposite of what I want, and that is when things get messy. I don't know how other people are with this disorder because I don't know anyone else with Asperger's or Autism in person, just online and only recently. I don't know how someone with AS or ASD is supposed to act other than I guess act like I do? But as far as manipulation goes I never really understood how to make people do what you want them to do other than to ask them and hope they comply.

When i lie, it's usually not done on purpose. It's just i dont know what i'm saying. and i dont know how to explain it. but when it comes to conciously trying to say a lie, i badly suck at it.
usually when i'm writing or nonverbally communicating the unintended lies are remedied. just like i used to say "up and adam" because thats what i heard a lot. but i had no clue what it meant, but it seemed to come out at a fitting time regardless. and i didn't find out that people were actually saying "up and at them" until much later lol..

but no two people on the spectrum are exactly alike.

EDIT:
Same with me. there are actually times i will ask for someone to help me figure out a way to say what i need to, to get what i need. in the end it still doesn't work when i do it like they say, but i still try. and the person ends up having to do it for me because people seem to listen to others more than they listen to me.

It depends on where they are at on the spectrum.

I have suffered from Aspergers/Autism since I was 14 and didn't realize it until last year. I am a higher functioning Autistic and I lie without even knowing it sometimes. I do not know how to empathize with people, or how to be myself, or who I even am! so, I make up identities based on people I like from TV and real life just so I can fit in with people. I've become a great actress and it has been a struggle to look at myself and figure out who I am so I stop doing this. (I had no idea I was doing this until my therapist told me.)

Because of that, when you have grown up in the spectrum, some autistics lie to please people or to keep them from catching on that they have no idea what's going on (in a moral or social sense). The autistic kid who hid his socks? Maybe he didn't understand what to do with them. Maybe he didn't understand why Mom got mad and discovered that lying made her happy. Anger, confrontation and negative social situations seriously stress out autistics and sometimes (not always) we will do whatever we can (LIE) to avoid them if necessary. Look at it from that way.

It is a learned behavior so that you fit in because you will never really figure out how to on your own. Accepting discipline and negative criticism is hard, although we still have to face it. The less confrontational and anger-based that it is helps immensely!

Thanks for your reply EbonyEwe! That is a great summary of the situation.

I lie to protect people's feelings too, because the truth is often ugly and will hurt them too much. I also lie so that people cannot feel sympathetic towards me or truly catch on that my life is a lot worse than they ever suspected. In any event, when I tell people I have zero friends and never ever go out they find it impossible to believe me anyway.

Yes, it is indeed a learned behaviour. I have learnt the right things to say to people to ease their minds and help them rest assure.

It is slightly off topic, But there is something I observed with my sister that might put some contrast on this.

First, She is not autistic or on the spectrum. Although she is highly narcissistic and vindictive. But she is both at the same time a master of manipulation and and very unaware that she is doing it at the same time. And that is something I have noticed about many of the most manipulative people I know. They are unaware that they are doing it.
Does that apply here, I don't know enough to say one way or the other, But it is something to consider.