Do you care of your psysicall appearance?

Hola,
People use to have the impression that avoidants are sloopy people, careless of their higiene.

My last psychologist put the stress on the importance of taking care of the image we project other people. It's not for narcissist reason but bc we have a part of our self-steem which is fed by the feedback other people provide us. That is, the social self-steem.

To be honest, I used to be careless of my look. Most of the time due to depression. I didn't give a damn about anything.
If I wasn't depressive, I was in a low mood and procrastinated as hell. I didn't like to go to a hairdresser's bc, you know, hairdressers don't stop talking ever.
I neither liked to go shopping bc nothing get well on me.
I stopped doing physical exercise because when I was in my teens, I used to do it everyday and along with eating little...I don't know bc I thought it would solve all my problems, but I realized I did all these things for nothing.

What do you think? What's your case? Are you feeding your social self-steem?

What??

No, Avies will do what they can to blend in and not to attract any negative attention.
Avie's overthink situations before, during and after so they aren't going to bring any undue attention to themselves.
These afterthoughts would eat me alive knowing that someone saw me with bad hygiene... not going to happen!

And what people?
Remembering that only 1 to 2.5% of the total population have AvPD, so chances are "people" have never met an avie... and if they did they wouldn't know.

"People use to have the impression that avoidants are sloopy people, careless of their higiene."

Huh, really? I've never heard that before. I would think that because they are so scared of criticism, they take extra care.
One way I am different to a lot of women: I never wear any make-up - except mascara sometimes. I had a brief period in my late teens - early twenties where I bought some but I never really got into wearing it (and my skin doesn't like to be covered up)

Apart from that I think I might have cared too much about my appearance and let it get me down because I wasn't happy with the way I looked. I was very particular about certain things, for example I would only wear a skirt with heels because I thought my legs looked too fat otherwise. But moving to a different city has changed that and I'm glad I'm now more relaxed about what I wear.
I also used to spend a ridiculous amount of money on cosmetics - which I now prefer to spend on other things. My obsession about my hair having to be brushed perfectly smooth is gone, thank god! If I'm in a hurry in the morning, I'll just put it up in a pony tail and not care if it looks a mess. No one cares in this city, anyway. I don't think it means I've gotten careless though, I do still take care of my appearance and hygiene. I just stopped worrying so much about what other people would think, which I see as a good thing.
The hair dresser thing you mentioned I can relate too though, that is one thing I still put off for as long as I can for the same reason as you.

A week ago I went to the dentist after 10 years... my biggest worry was "what will he think?". I started brushing my teeth regularly a few years ago. Half a year ago I started getting physically fit and I am not going to stop.

The reason why I didn't do it before was because I didn't love myself. I am going to therapy for a month and only lately I realized how my approach to life is wrong. So, no, I don't think there is any basis in your claim.

Perhaps, I was a bit radical in my assertion or I didn't know very well how to choose the words.
The impression many people have about avoidants is that they don't care about physical appearance when they can be in the avoidant mood.
Of course, when an avoidant is forcé to interact (s)he makes his best to avoid calling the attention.

I use to do all these physicall exercises and diet bc I didn't like my body and bc I thought that if I were able to show me up my peers with a good look, all my personality problems could be solved.
Perhaps, it has nothing to do with AvPD but with a low self-steem as Orvel, pointed out.

Then, there is procrastination. For me, it was a world to go to a hairdresser's. I didn't like what I see in the mirrow. I didn't want to see myself. How the hell, I was going to let other people saw it.

[QUOTE=Orvel;4253304]A week ago I went to the dentist after 10 years... my biggest worry was "what will he think?". I started brushing my teeth regularly a few years ago. Half a year ago I started getting physically fit and I am not going to stop.

The reason why I didn't do it before was because I didn't love myself. I am going to therapy for a month and only lately I realized how my approach to life is wrong. So, no, I don't think there is any basis in your claim.[/

Congratulations!!!! For your first month of therapy. I see you, for what you write here, quite optimist and hopefull. You even dared to flirt with your collage.

Thank you. I try to push as much as I can and I hope I am going the right way.

Edit: Though I wouldn't call this flirting brave... because I was already familiar with some of it.

I think you're mixing up depression symptoms and AvPD symptoms. Of course, AvPD can lead to depression, but they are definitely not linked. There are non-depressed Avoidant people.

Avoidant people must have low self-esteem, but the diagnosis requirements say nothing about depression.

The DSM V says to diagnose avoidant personality
disorder, the following criteria must be met:
A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):
a. Identity: Low self-esteem associated with self-appraisal
socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior;
excessive feelings of shame or inadequacy.
b. Self-direction: Unrealistic standards for behavior
associated with reluctance to pursue goals, take personal
risks, or engage in new activities involving interpersonal
contact.
AND
2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Preoccupation with, and sensitivity to, criticism
or rejection, associated with distorted inference of others‟
perspectives as negative.
b. Intimacy: Reluctance to get involved with people unless
being certain of being liked; diminished mutuality within
intimate relationships because of fear of being shamed or
ridiculed.
B. Pathological personality traits in the following domains:
1. Detachment, characterized by:
a. Withdrawal: Reticence in social situations; avoidance of
social contacts and activity; lack of initiation of social
contact.
b. Intimacy avoidance: Avoidance of close or romantic
relationships, interpersonal attachments, and intimate
sexual relationships.
c. Anhedonia: Lack of enjoyment from, engagement in, or
energy for life‟s experiences; deficits in the capacity to feel
pleasure or take interest in things.
2. Negative Affectivity, characterized by:
a. Anxiousness: Intense feelings of nervousness, tenseness,
or panic, often in reaction to social situations; worry about
the negative effects of past unpleasant experiences and
future negative possibilities; feeling fearful, apprehensive,
or threatened by uncertainty; fears of embarrassment.

I'm wondering why if you know you're describing depression symptoms, you are here calling them Avoidant? Won't that be confusing to people?

I understand you have trouble expressing yourself. However, there is a difference between making an error with word choice, and blurring two psychological concepts. Depression is definitely something that a lot of Avoidant people are familiar with. I can't imagine that you can't talk about depression in this forum. So call a spade a spade - if it's depression, call it depression, and if it's Avoidance, call it Avoidance. Simple.

I do care, for the reasons Snapp stated; because I want to blend in. I don't want to attract negative attention towards myself so I don't want to look or smell bad. But also (and this is where I lose normal people) I don't want to look good either because I don't want to attract positive attention. I want no attention. I would like to own some kind of chameleon suit that changes to the colors of the walls of any room I'm in (but not really because i want to start learning how to not just blend in).

Also, going to the gym and being physically fit is a self-esteem booster. And the self-discipline I learn from exercising is helpful in general.

..And hola to you too Azul

I think the complete opposite is true.

As the others have said, when people are feeling their avoidance most, they do everything they can to blend in and be pleasing. They will go to the ends of the earth to make sure they will pass muster, and fuss over every aspect of their appearance.

Plus - many people? Normies you mean?

I've been avoidant for decades. I have never, never once had someone call me out for being avoidant.

First of all, "most people" don't even know that AvPD exists. And secondly, I do everything I can do to pass. I stay as quiet and in the background as I can, but if I'm confronted, I can fake it. I fall apart afterward, but I can talk to people if I have to. I can't imagine that some random person who didn't know me really well would ever think I was anything but a little reticent. It kills me, but I make sure that I blend in.

Again, it's common for DEPRESSED people to not tend to themselves. And, yes, there can be a general impression that depressed people don't care about their appearances.

You're mixing things together that, like oil and water, can't be mixed. Don't glom everything together. Just because you experienced something at one part of your lifetime does not mean that it's automatically an avoidant trait, and that every avoidant shared that experience. On the contrary, it would be unlikely for you to ever find someone who had an exact match of your background.

I'm guessing that I'm not the only one here who is guilty of self-diagnosing. It's possible that there are more people that have "symptoms' of Avoidant Personality than actually have a Avoidant Personality "Disorder". Furthermore, avoidant behavior typically leads to social isolation and loneliness which frequently leads to depression, so the 2 are often linked. Just my 2 cents, since none of us are really experts here. Well, maybe I am a little (I have a Master's in Clinical Psychology and years in the field).

In case I haven't mentioned once or twice AvPD is also linked with Social Anxiety. The DSM 5 defined it as:

A. A persistent fear of one or more social or performance situations in which the person is exposed to unfamiliar people or to possible scrutiny by others. The individual fears that he or she will act in a way (or show anxiety symptoms) that will be embarrassing and humiliating.

B. Exposure to the feared situation almost invariably provokes anxiety, which may take the form of a situationally bound or situationally pre-disposed Panic Attack.

C. The person recognizes that this fear is unreasonable or excessive.

D. The feared situations are avoided or else are endured with intense anxiety and distress.

E. The avoidance, anxious anticipation, or distress in the feared social or performance situation(s) interferes significantly with the person's normal routine, occupational (academic) functioning, or social activities or relationships, or there is marked distress about having the phobia.

F. The fear, anxiety, or avoidance is persistent, typically lasting 6 or more months.

G. The fear or avoidance is not due to direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., drugs, medications) or a general medical condition not better accounted for by another mental disorder...

Copyright 2013, The American Psychiatric Association

Sound familiar?

I am no expert, but from what I've read. There is no "border". There are a bunch of degrees of AvPD from being an extreme example to something that can just be interpreted as simply shyness.

Kind of awesome that you guys are talking about this.

The full burden of the personality disorder is awful. It's not just having trouble getting dates, or knowing fully and absolutely that you're wasting time in a soul sucking job, it's the anhedonia, which is a complete inability to feel pleasure, ever! I can remember every time I felt pure happiness, because there have literally been less than a handful of them in my life.

I worry about people who decide they are avoidant, and then live within that frame for a decade or more. Maybe your whole life! Because, yes, it's true, if you have the PD you can't change it. But if you just have avoidant aspects, they can be adjusted.

Like depression - there are medications that can manage that. PD's are not brain chemical imbalances. Pills don't work. Take them, it's like drinking water, the only way you know you've taken them at all is when you quit you have withdrawal symptoms.

But if you're depressed, and you self-diagnose it as avoidance, you're missing out on feeling better. What a shame!

It could be that you are socially inept. Okay. If that's your problem, that's great! Because you can learn social skills. I have a son who is autistic. He can't pick up any social cues; he had to be taught everything, the same way you would teach a kid to multiply and divide. It worked. Now I have to watch myself, because he can look at my face and know just what I'm thinking.

I'm starting training myself. I'm learning how to tell when people are lying to me, which is terrifying, because I'm afraid I'll find out everyone is lying to me all the time. But I'm going to give it a shot.

If your avoidant aspects come from feeling socially inferior, you can go to a therapist about it. Don't tell them you're avoidant! Go in and say, I was really shy in high school and I missed out on learning how to socialize, so I need help to catch up to everyone. Then there you go - problem solved - you'll be able to understand people, and be less fearful of them, and you'll be able to live your life.

I know, that seems like a pipe dream if you have the PD. Which it is. If you have the PD.

But if you don't...

Live! Do it for us who can't!

I wish people didn't stop searching when they read the description of avoidant. If you had to convince someone you were avoidant, if you had to insist you have the diagnosis, there is an excellent chance you're on the wrong track.

The description for me, when the doctor read it to me, was earth shattering. It was like they'd been following me around taking down notes about me. It fit me like a glove, and everyone who knows me who has heard the description has said, "yep, that's you." Those same people all say, "what a shame you can't live up to your potential."

It's hard to keep working on yourself. It's so easy to say, this label fits so I'm sticking with it. But look what you give up! Never ever ever being happy, never ever ever getting pleasure from life. Don't stay there if you don't have to! Try and try and try, and fail and fail and fail. When you've tried everything, when you know for sure you aren't simply depressed, or just don't know how people work and you've learned all you can about them, then get cozy with the label. But don't sell yourself short in the meantime.

Back to the original question - which is about depressive symptoms vs avoidant symptoms - remember to try to keep those things straight. Because, even with the PD, you can work to become less depressed, so long as you pay attention to it and don't assume there's nothing that can be done.

This probably sounds kind of snarky. I don't see it that way. I hope that some of you are staring at brick walls, and that I might have shaken you up enough that you can look around and see that the whole world is behind you, if you'd only just turn around and stop staring at that brick wall in front of you.

I like who I am. (Waiting for the lighting bolt to strike that I said that.) But I still wish I could turn around and not find that my brick wall completely surrounds me. I'd really like the chance to see the world.

If you can, then try. You owe it to yourself. Don't stay in the box that the nifty label has put you in. Jump out of it. Don't waste one more minute being miserable if you don't absolutely have to.

Yeah, no. Personality disorders are mean things. They are so much more than just shyness.

What are you reading? Please tell me it's not all Kantor - he might be an "expert", but I swear he has no clue.

No just monotonous and pedantic. I mean, you've made the same point like 5 times now, and each time it has taken longer to make it. Or it feels that way at least. So she asked a Q to fellow avpds and threw in how depression affects her answer to her own Q. Okay it is very known now that you are upset with this and why. We get it. Now chill.

I'm just wondering how any of this nitpicking/arguing over diagnoses is supposed to be supportive to anyone. Isn't that what these forums are about?

And the original question was about physical appearance, by the way, not depression vs. personality disorder.

Are you serious?

If your mother fell down and bruised her knee, looked it up on WebMD and it said it could be cancer, so she moved into a hospital for the rest of her life, would you be okay with that?

I'm not nitpicking over a diagnosis. A "self-diagnosis" isn't a diagnosis at all, after all.

There is a difference between support and enabling.

All you're doing is giving yourself an excuse to stay miserable. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do that. If you think you can explain it, go ahead and try.

All of you make good points. I agree that some of us find comfort in having a diagnosis, now we have a starting point for treatment/recovery. However, self-labeling can be a nasty trap that we get stuck in, as ck2d pointed out. I usually keep this opinion to myself because some people get a little bit defensive when you try to mess with their "diagnosis"! But what the heck, we're all adults here, we can share different experiences and beliefs and still remain civil?

I agree. But do you know everyone here personally and know what diagnosis they have or have not been given by a professional? I feel like things are getting mixed up here with one person blaming symptoms of depression on their AvPD and another person saying they're self-diagnosed.

If my mother went to the hospital with a bruised knee and said she has cancer, I doubt the doctors would just take her word for it and put her in a hospital bed without doing any tests. The same goes for therapist (at least if they're any good), if you show up and say "I have AvPD" they're still going to talk to you and test you, and come up with their own conclusion.

And it's not about getting a label and giving up, thinking nothing can be changed. It's about a label that helps you better understand yourself, that there are other people like you out there. A label that stops you from feeling like a failure when anxiety therapy didn't work for you, because what you have goes deeper than that. And that doesn't mean nothing can ever change, but it may need a different approach.

Is it possible, ck2d for you to open a thread about discussing the dangers of a self-diagnosis.
I normaly like people twister my thread but, I can't understand why the topic is here when I was diagnosed with AvPD.

By the way, I know here, in the avoidant forum, there are people who has other issues. Don't talk about comorbidity.
They never said that they are avoidants. They have avoidants beaviour but they are diagnosed with social phobia.
I enjoy talking with them, so please, open your own thread.
Look, the main reason why I'm here is to say the young people to go to therapy but you know, as well as me, going to therapy means trusting in someone or ask for help, things that are quite difficult for an avoidant.
You, me can't get anything telling them over and over again what they have to do. Pushing so strongly, the only thing we may get is that the person goes away from us.