[sqrlb8]

...indeed, and most probably about so far too many things as to make the act of wondering itself to seem of little wonder.

The clever reader will by now have surmised the manic rant likely to follow, and will have wisely averted his/her eyes to soliloquies more sane. For the more masochistically inclined who persist, I will endeavor to elucidate with as little as possible of my customary obnoxiously oblique verbosity.

Lately I've been reminded of an English teacher, a million years ago, who indadvertantly changed my life by introducing the concept of suspending one's disbelief in order to participate in any fiction and be "entertained." For example, when you watch Dr Zchivago, you know full well that it is a made up thing, a story, and yet, at the end, when the Dr lies dying in the street, unseen by his long lost beloved only feet away on the trolley, you cry your eyes out every time. That's the suspension of disbelief, most simply described. Somehow, it vitalized my whole understanding and appreciation of the world of art.

But lately, I am ever fond of turning things around for another look. (So often, there are no sentries posted at the back door of an idea.) So, what about suspending one's beliefs where ever one finds them?

Sure it's uncomfortable at first; it's supposed to be. But relax,you can pick your belief up again later afterall, if it's really so good. But, for a while, can you suspend it? What do you see? I wonder.

Maybe I'm posting this here because I wonder if bipolar uniquely energizes the examination of belief. So many times I've seen mine crumble now, and amid such psychic violence. And so often the experience owes its origin to a blip in brain chemistry. Most often my beliefs have amounted to a wall I built as a defense against new information. What folly.

If I hold my beliefs rigidly, I suffer a kind of anihilation when they are assailed by painful revelation to the contrary. If I hold my beliefs more loosely, then my core is less shaken by the same assault of the truth. Assimilation is enhanced.

I find a sense of wonder to foster an endlessly revealing world/universe view to exactly the same extent to which I find that a belief inhibits that same revealing. By simply suspending my belief, I can seem to facilitate much.

Any thoughts?

Too abstract?

"Get the net" time?

[TgrsPurr]

LOL!!! I just love, love, love the way your mind works sqrl. I must confess though that this post makes my mind a bit squirrelly. I understand the concept your talking about, especially when it comes to movies. Some of you may know that I am a rabid movie fan and the reason is because I can suspend my disbelief and live vicariously through the actor or actors I'm watching. I'm allowing myself to experience what they are experiencing. If I don't, I consider it a bad movie...they must make me believe what I'm seeing is true by their ability to "be it" on the screen.
Okay, now, when it comes to my 3d world, well, it becomes a bit more difficult for me to suspend my beliefs. I tend to think of things in a very black and white form. I do see the downside to this thinking, but my reason, I think, for being this way is because it is more simplistic. I've mentioned before that I live a very simplistic lifestyle. Why? Because on the inside I'm very complicated. So I compensate for that in my external world. In someof my posts sqrl, we've confronted my issues of being so rigid in my thinking and "beliefs" about meds. And I'm better for confronting that belief and loosening my grip on that belief. But I never would have done that on my own had YOU not gently and kindly guided my thoughts to a different way of seeing things. So in there lies my dilema, how do I suspend belief when it never even occurs to me to do so? But, and here is where I get so complicated...I can much more easily do this for others because I'm more objective, there's a distance there from the issue that is not MY issue. See what I mean? I personally am too deeply wrapped around my beliefs, to the point of being cemented in them. Okay, when it comes to my faith, I absolutely will not compromise. I know what I know what I know. However, when it comes to the physical, emotional and intellectual...I'm willing to be challenged sqrl. I don't mean challenged in the negative sense. I mean challenged to step outside myself and be willing to view things from a different perspective. But I'll need help...I must learn to crawl before I can walk and walk before I run.

This has been a rather long winded response to your post sqrl, to you and others I apologize if I seem to just be rambling a bunch of nonesense. I swear, in my head it sounded profound, LOL.

Thoughts anyone?
TgrsPurr.

[TgrsPurr]

Okay, now that I'm home and not at work, I reread both your post and mine. I think I might have missed the mark a bit in my long winded response that amounted to almost nothing. Geez, could I be manic? Ya think???????

Okay, bare with me here. After thinking about this on the drive home I got to thinking about this, when I look at myself and my past and my now, I see that in my spiritual realm, most of my life I spent being very open minded, searched down many paths, some even outlandish I might add, I asked a lot of the deep questions...why am I here? What is the purpose of my life? Who or what is God? Where do I fit in the grand scheme of things? I sought out many different practices...I'm debating here whether to mention any of them...ultimately that doesn't matter, so I won't, I don't want to risk offending anyone.
Well, my search was at many times fruitless, other times I caught glimpses of answers to those questions. Now, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt the answers to those questions, for me! And I feel a great completeness in that, a fulfillment if you will, probably the closest thing I've ever had to "coming home". But I will say that I don't know that I would have this current spiritual strength had I not explored all of those other paths and suspended my disbelief long enough to find out it wasn't the answer for me. But had I not I would have been left "wondering" about those other belief systems.
I hope I'm on point here sqrl.

Okay, next point, I feel pretty confident in saying that age plays a roll in this, at both ends of the spectrum. A child is untainted, totally free to believe whatever comes their way, a clean slate that as time goes on becomes written on by experience, thought and imagination. Children are eager to believe in the magical. Why? Because they don't know NOT to. If their strong enough, they can keep that belief alive, but many succomb to societies rules that such beliefs are silly. They become pigeon-holed. At the other end of the spectrum the elderly at they become closer and closer to their death ask the really big questions. What have I done with my life? What did I accomplish? Did I love my children enough? Where will I go when I die? and perhaps they get a serious case of the regrets and begin with the "if only"'s. But that is their imagination working in reverse, right? Looking back on the pivotal moments and decisions that shaped who they became and seeing them for what the really were, unfortunately, many times, a bunch of BS. How sad. BUT, their not dead yet and have an opportunity to open their minds once again.
Again, I hope I'm on point here sqrl.

Well, I'm gonna leave it at that for now. I'm all out of epiphanies for the moment. Well....
LOL.
TgrsPurr.

[vacantangel]

OK, my reply is a condenced version. lol!!! I agree with TgrsPurr that as far as my faith is concerned, my beliefs are rigid. I stand strong with my faith and nobody is going to veer me into a different direction of changing what I believe.

But as far as anything else is concerned I think I can entertain the idea of looking at things from another point of view, if that's what you're referring to? My belief on anything else could always be up for questioning that there may be a different way of looking at something and my belief might actually change to the new way of examining something once explored.

Just because I believe a certain way does not make it the only way or the true way, there are always other ways of looking at issues.

That's to say that I understood your post to begin with and that anything I said makes any kind of sense whatsoever.

i do too........i'm going to go to bed now, bushy tailed friend..i'll talk to you tomorrow...11 hours today..p

[sqrlb8]

LOL< thanks all for reading and thinking about it. I'm kinda surprised though that at least two of you took it right to the big belief kahuna so to speak. Hmmm. I don't want to disabuse anyone of their religiosity specifically as I do to provoke an examination of an area of our psyche where perhaps we underestimate the extent of our volition. But since, both of you aver with the customary quavering solemnity your unshakable belief in the big one, let me use it for the potent example it offers.

Instead of using your declaration of faith as a reason not to suspend your belief in it for a moment of reflection, what if you instead said that "because" of your unshakable faith you "can" suspend your belief in it for a moment. Aterall, it is unshakable...isn't it? Is it that it could be harmed by something you might see?

Is that kind of faith exacted from you, or do you enforce it upon yourself? What holds that in place? Can you ask those questions without suspending belief? Can you live without asking those questions?

[TgrsPurr]

sqrl, I'm sorry if I disappoint you on this one, but faith is very, very clear to me. It is breathed into every aspect of my life, my thoughts, my actions, my emotions, my strengths, my weaknesses, my right doing, my wrong doing, what propels me forward in my quest for self-improvement. It is my strength, it is my rock, it is what anchors me in the violent storms of life, bp, relationships...everything. I seek God's will with an open heart, an open mind, with constant meditation and especially prayer. I speak to God consistantly and constantly. I surround myself with his presence, his Glory and most importantly His perfect Love. This is not to say that sometimes I'm not frusterated, unruley and willful and decide to do things my way instead of His way, but I always pay for it. And it becomes a learning experience. I am open to His corrections of my mistakes. I believe that it is God that has stretched me on my path to forgiveness and ultimately peace. On this I do not waver. Of some things I am completely certain and this is because of 30 years of searching and finally "coming home" in a spiritual sense of "coming home".

Some things in life, well, my life, are not up for debate or questioning. I am willing however, to question my methods sometimes, my thoughts, how I'm standing in my own way of spiritual advancement. But I never doubt Him or His Word.

This is difficult to talk about without stepping over boundaries, perhaps I already have, but it is my responsibitlity to proclaim Him.

I am a child of God.

[nothemama8]

faith, spirituality, is reality
Angie

[sqrlb8]

I can see why or how it went this way, but what I really had in mind for this was more the myriad little ways we hamper our progress with beliefs like, "I can't do....whatever."

While I make no secret of harboring some fairly cynical views of the religeous impulse in general, I don't really want to bog down in what has been mankinds central basis for disagreement throughout time. lol. See what I mean? Everyone will just get all upset, and that's the last thing I want.

enlightenment through and around our "set in stone" mindsets...stepping out of the box....off the screen, so to speak.....enabling faraway and long ago questions and thoughts to allow us to be "present" in some new thought process.....questions and thoughts that are far in the future and we have hints of what is to come .....linking to that and opening up to the wonder of it all........setting aside the faith that i have in my old routines and traditions and pecularities (sp) just to float into what is offered.....

[vacantangel]

I guess I left a lot out of my reply in regards to my faith. I was brought up in the church and it was just something we did because of my mother's faith. As a teen, I rebelled against that as I did everything else in my life. I was the bad wild child.

After my period of rebellion (hmmmm, is that over?), I started to rethink my faith and started to reintroduce myself back to God's word by reading and studying the Bible and talking to God on a regular basis. My faith has always been very strong, although it has certainly quivered during times when I have become suicidal. But none the less, even though my faith has been rattled, it's still strong in my life. Do I always follow the way I should? I wish I could say I do but we all know I don't. I fall short, way short of what He would want for me.

I have also suspended my faith in order to explore if there was another *way* that may be more valid for lack of a better word. I've debated my faith against those who don't share it with me and I always come back to my own faith as being the only true way for me and my life.

So, I guess what I was saying in my previous response is that now my faith is non-negotiable, not up to any suspension and that is because I've already done that many years ago. I'm satisfied and happy with the beliefs that I have and today I stand firmly in those beliefs.

I hope that better explains my position.

[nothemama8]

Okay bushy tail got it, I'm going to try Not saying "maybe ppl are right about " how I'm feeling
am I on topic yet huh
Angie

[TgrsPurr]

sqrl, I beg forgiveness for stearing things in the wrong direction. I understand completely that "spirituality" was not the intention of this post. It just took a 45 degree turn, up the hill and through the woods, LOL. Oops, my bad.

You're absolutely right that we are to take some of the everyday things of life and turn them on their head so to speak. If nothing else, it keeps life interesting, LOL.
TgrsPurr.

P.S. I was responding to all posts this a.m. while dealing with a colossal error at work by the boss who is AGAIN out of town, I wasn't fully present and should have held off until I was 100% here. Forgive me.

[vacantangel]

As far as other aspects of life, there is a comfortability factor in doing things the same way that you've always done them. Not everybody steps outside the box to look at it from a different angle. I think sometimes I'm able to do that but most times it takes somebody else making a suggestion that is different that would get me to look at something from a different approach. I'm always open to that newly presented approach and can quite easily discard my own if the new one presented appears better. I'm not so rigid with my own way to not explore and adapt to something new.

[sqrlb8]

No harm no foul. There isn't really a right or wrong way for this to go, I was just surprised it went straight to the one belief most difficult to challenge, generally speaking.

Feel free to pick it up anythime it may strike you differently, or let it fade. Not the only thing we have to talk about, is it? lol.

[TgrsPurr]

okay, new focus...let me try to remember the post I made...Oh, Yeah. In my "Faking My Feelings" thread I had mentioned free will as a "given", which you replied that my belief was not unassailable (another one of your words I had to look up), meaning not all together infallable??? Speak to me sqrl....the stage is your.
TgrsPurr

[vacantangel]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who needs a vocabulary lesson. I was beginning think I was real stupid.

[Kathyanita]

Wow. I tried and I am not lately able to "talk on stilts" to answer with echos of your vocabulary. i have Relaxed my need to pass as an integrated individual here. That is what i just learned from your post- i am somehow restfull at NOT being able to reply inteligently. Thanks for the loop. i hope you are extricated from too much pondering and thought provocation. It could wear you out like Thomas Wolfe

[Myzen]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
No harm no foul. There isn't really a right or wrong way for this to go, I was just surprised it went straight to the one belief most difficult to challenge, generally speaking.

Feel free to pick it up anythime it may strike you differently, or let it fade. Not the only thing we have to talk about, is it? lol.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi sqrlb,

I couldn't resist popping over to your thread to do some philosophy. First off, it's interesting how quickly philosophy drains into religion. I think this might be because most of us haven't studied philosophy, so we link the word 'belief' with 'religion', which most of us do know about. That's understandable.

Philosophy is about questioning our own beliefs, and the grounding of our beliefs, and most people are not too comfortable in the process. People tend to think that beliefs are things that we stick up for, not question.

Some mental illnesses do drive us to wonder what the world is really about, just as you say, and that can be a very opening experience, but also very frightening. A lot of people say, "Why frighten ourselves?" and I can see the sense it that view. IMHO it's a matter of choice. I've had a go at Catholicism and Buddhism, but in the end my deep belief is that I just don't know, and that's where I have ended up. I have to go where my heart is.

Cheers, Myzen.

[(JD)]

Interesting. Faith and belief are in two different, yet mystically entwined, realms. My faith in God is in the background when I exhibit my beliefs about the world.

Currently I am studying Einstein's Entanglement papers... while I do that, I "realize " that not only is he correct, but that Hawking has determined that when the two particles meet in the universe, they disappear! Wow. Talk about suspending a prior belief!

Why have I stated such quantum mechanics in this thread? Because of belief. Quatum physics has proven that by believing a certain way about matter we change it to adhere to our beliefs! Another layman's term is the Observer Effect. What you THINK you will see, what you BELIEVE will happen makes it HAPPEN!

As for the manic stages you enter, I hope you can control them enough to create! Think of all the great people of history that created some of the world's finest... during a manic episode!

[TgrsPurr]

Pat and I have listed some of those ppl in the "Sick of my Illness" thread. It's quite fascinating to me.
TgrsPurr.

[Ganesha]

My dear Rodent King...
can I say that here?

I must say that this topic is close to my heart.
I spent a decade blathering on about this topic...

Have you ever heard of the game "The Transformation Game"?
It's a kick

I diverge.

So my last big thinking on the topic of suspension of beliefs is this:

I hit my late 30's and all the systems that had been in place spewed out of me like vomit.
(sorry maybe too graphic)
then I went into my 40's with no systems in place....
(I thought maybe some people might think I was crazy but I had actually grown more sane)
In this state I could function...

honestly the beliefs traipsed back in...
(oh golly they are persistent)
but once I did a major amount of therapy
the old ugly beliefs fled...
(only took 20 minutes for some of the worst)

yes life has a different flow when they are suspended.

you are a good man.
(there you go, it's my belief...
but I think it's true..
okay but it's still my belief)

we can embrace the beliefs we like..
and the others be d*mned!

G.

[Ganesha]

now that was eloquent...
I love that you thought about this topic all the way home.

I, for one, am curious about the paths you traveled.
(if you want to keep it between us you can email me)
I too have meandered my way to the present...
and a good present it is.
Ganesha

it could be very interesting for "us women" to sit in a circle and describe the paths we've taken to arrive at the present abode.....no offense to the men, i'm just more interesting in hearing what women have to say on this subject.

DANG IT!!!!!!!! where's that freakin internet beast that keeps eating my best replies? $%#@!!!!!! I typed this really cool thing and now it's freakin lost. Anyway... sqrl... I enjoyed.

Ry