Sleeping Problems & Tiredness

Hi All,

I'd like to throw a question out here about sleeping.

Before I got diagnosed I could always 'hear' my thoughts which went on 24/7. I thought that that was normal and everyone had that, so it was nothing I ever talked about. I knew I slept light, was easily woken up and when a room isn't darkened I wake up from the light entering the room.

Once I got diagnosed I was given sleeping aids. And suddenly I realised what I had been missing out on for 38 years!
Wow, sleeping was fun! After researching what BP is etc. I of course found out that thoughts going on 24/7 isn't really normal, but typical for BP's.

My trouble is, that the med I was on in the States and worked well for me, isn't available here in the Netherlands (Ambien CR 12,5 mg). I have been on several different meds, but so far have not found anything that really helps or keeps on helping.

How about your sleeping patterns / problems / stories / tips / meds?????? Can anyone relate?

Yesterday I started on Abilify, which made me sleepy, but wasn't enough to give me a night's sleep, let alone a good nights sleep. I will take another sleeping aid tonight, see if that will work. I am getting slowly desperate, because my sleeping is so important to my well being, as you all out there well know.

Also, I have the tiredness as side effects of my meds. Anyone out there too? How do you deal with it? I am soooo tired of being tired!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, there is one thing in Netherland which helps me with my sleep, but I don't think we can recommend that here

I am not on meds... i cannot imagine having my thoughts switched off... it makes me think of dreaded blue/white screen on my computer. But as sleeping goes... yoga techniques work. Yes, they take longer time, but their affects are long term too, with zero side effects. There is a way, once you master the deep relaxation to switch off dreams (remembering them actually). I am even able to program when to wake up.

I haven't been diagnosed or anything, but relate to most blogs on this forum, and I'm glad I joined because I now know that I am not alone. I also hear my thoughts, constantly, and up until your post, I thought it to be normal, maybe I should find medicine for peace and quiet too. I have 2 types of sleeping patterns, both of which are extreme... when i'm extremely happy (about anything and nothing mostly) I get maybe 2 or 3 hours of sleep per night and don't wake up tired. The downfall is, my body gets tired, but my mind won't let me sleep. During my sad days I don't do anything BUT sleep, which in turn makes me even more tired,it's a real mission to get up. When i really need a good nights rest i take sleeping pills which usually helps as i decide on my own dosage ( I have a high tolerance for medication especially pain medication) I've taken to listening to relaxing music, and making a mental point of being relaxed, as i've discovered that even though i'm in bed, that doesn't mean i'm relaxed...so be sure to relax while resting. I do visualization exercises to help quiet my mind ( my favourite is a broom sweeping my thoughts away) sometimes i visualize myself to sleep this way... I'm sorry if this is not much help, i haven't given my behaviour much thought until recent events (which brought me to this site) so I don't have any other suggestions right now. but will post again if something comes to mind!
I hope you get a good night's rest soon!

I understand very well how frustrating not being able to sleep is! I am diagnosed with chronic insomnia in addition to my other diagnoses, because I hardly sleep at all no matter what cycle I'm in. Right now my pdoc has me alternate nights: I take Seroquel 100mg + 1mg clonazepam one night, and the next night I take 8mg Rozerem + 10mg Ambien + 1mg clonazepam. I usually sleep 6 -8 hours with this set-up; although I still have nights where I can't sleep at all. In the past, Trazedone worked for awhile, and at one point I was on doxepin + chloral hydrate. I can't remember what other sleep aids I've been on.

Have you tried guided meditation? I like the Total Wellness set by Belleruth Naparstek. Sometimes those cd's help me. I always have to have a fan running, the white noise helps a lot. I used to take a brisk walk in the evening, about 6 hours before bedtime followed by a hot bath, that helped a little (I have a bad back and and leg pain now so no more brisk walks for me).

As for the tiredness side effects, those can be hard to combat. A small amount of coffee helps, but I have to be really careful because too much causes massive anxiety, and then I have to take a clonazepam, which makes me tired all over again

Sorry for rambling...I hope you are able to find something that works for you!!!

Hi VenusHalley,

gotcha..... I wouldn't really use it, but think I know what you mean...

My thoughts are not switched off when on meds. It gives me a deeper proper nights sleep where I don't end up listening to my thoughts, but actually get some rest.

Yeah, I am trying to work on mindfullness and becoming aware of my surroundings, getting grounded, etc. I have breathing techniques, the trouble is I have no discipline whatsoever. It is something that you need to apply on a regular basis and I am not there yet because of various circumstances I find myself in which I can't change...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

Is Melatonin available? I take 5mg of that and it helps out a lot. It is a herbal supplement so you can get it over the counter.

I have been an insomniac for as long as I can remember. I think you posted a while back that you were on Effexor? When I was on that I could barely sleep despite being on FIVE other sedating pills (Remeron, Lamictal, Vistaril, Ambien and Trazadone). I would sleep for forty five minutes, take more Trazadone and still not be able to sleep. Once my doc started tapering me off the Effexor sleeping got better. Trazadone gave me bad dreams.

Nothing makes me sleep like Remeron, I've been on it for ten years. I got all the crazy side effects of Ambien, walking around, frying things in the middle of the night and leaving on appliances... I'm on Lunesta now which is seems to be working pretty well.

Boy, do I understand sleep issues! I just got home tonight from an 8 day stay in the hospital brought on primarily due to insomnia. I hadn't had more than 3 hours sleep a night for several months.

My pdoc basically knocked me out for the first 48 hours to get my body to reboot its sleep cycle. It worked. I've been sleeping 9 hours a night since then and I no longer feel like I'm about to implode from sheer exhaustion.

The list of possible sleep meds is pretty extensive: ambien, lunesta, restoril, trazadone, seroquel are the standards. I now am on a combination of seroquel and lunesta that is working well for me.

Yeah, it's available. My first pdoc suggested it, tried it, but did naught for me. Nor does Benadryl or any such thing. Sucks...
Glad it works for you, though!

Sorry to hear of your struggle, it really sucks!

Glad you got rebooted. To function as well as can be, I also need 9 hours sleep. But I don't get that for quite a while now. I am stil coping, but don't know for how long.

Yeah, the list of sleeping meds is long, and I hate that I have been down the list already quite a bit, but haven't found what works for me. Am considering to find out if I could order ambien CR online in some way, but it would mean additional costs, which I can't really afford. I also don't know if it will work if it has to be shipped abroad (from Germany or UK). SO am hesitant.

I'll see...

Take care lf

Lunesta is in some ways similar to zopiclone which didn't work for me either. But hey, I'll just have to continue to work my way thru the long list, I guess... Maybe I'll try Remeron next, although it is an anti-depressant as well, so it might not work with efexor. I'll see what happens...

Thanks!(and well, I am a rambler too, so I can relate lol)

[quote=The Crazy Rambler;1366761]...Before I got diagnosed I could always 'hear' my thoughts which went on 24/7. I thought that that was normal and everyone had that, so it was nothing I ever talked about. I knew I slept light, was easily woken up and when a room isn't darkened I wake up from the light entering the room. ... After researching what BP is etc. I of course found out that thoughts going on 24/7 isn't really normal, but typical for BP's. [quote]
I know that main question is about sleeping (P-doc would always say, "so how are you sleeping?" Me, "fine". Then I think... well, actually I usually wake up quite a number of times every night. It's so typical it seems fine, right? Can usually get back to sleep pretty readily, unless rumination starts, then.... ugh. Like you, I'm also a very light sleeper.... the slightest noise...even with earplugs... but always have a helluva time getting up in the morning. Or, you know, noon! I've never taken anything for sleep but the super-occasional 1/2 xanax when I'm ruminating, in desperate need of sleep and have enough hours left to not be completely out of it in the morning.)
Anyhow... this other is very interesting. I have a constant conversation going on inside. You mean this isn't normal???

I have tried all of the sleeping pills out there and nothing works better for me than Benadryl. I take two most nights (I have to work during the day time), but if you can deal with a little groginess it works wonders. It's cheap, over the counter, and it seems to do the trick. I also read before bed to calm me down. Good luck!

I know that main question is about sleeping (P-doc would always say, "so how are you sleeping?" Me, "fine". Then I think... well, actually I usually wake up quite a number of times every night. It's so typical it seems fine, right? Can usually get back to sleep pretty readily, unless rumination starts, then.... ugh. Like you, I'm also a very light sleeper.... the slightest noise...even with earplugs... but always have a helluva time getting up in the morning. Or, you know, noon! I've never taken anything for sleep but the super-occasional 1/2 xanax when I'm ruminating, in desperate need of sleep and have enough hours left to not be completely out of it in the morning.)
Anyhow... this other is very interesting. I have a constant conversation going on inside. You mean this isn't normal??? [/quote]

Well, to have it going on 24/7 is not typical for everybody, let's put it that way. For me, only when I experienced so called normal sleep, I didn't want to go back to the constantly thinking. I appreciate the rest that comes with proper sleeping now!!
I have never been a morning person, so getting up late is, since I don't have a job, a way of life a lot of the time especially when depressed and can't find a reason to get up in the first place...
What I truly hate is never feeling rested. I suffer from the side effect of tiredness that come with all the meds I am taking. AARRGGHHHHH
I would say if it doesn't bother you the way things go for you, let it go. Don't you feel tired all the time though?

Nah, Benadryl didn't do anyhting for me, unfortunately....
Yeah, I always read before bed, old habit from childhood days. It is relaxing and makes my thoughts go somewhere else. but it does happen that I read till the early hours of the mornin'...

I have always been a deep sleeper, needing at least 8 hours per day. And this hasn't been too much of a problem.
But about 18months ago I went through a very traumatic time in my life, with really messed up relationships, leading to an attempted suicide attempt. Around that time the anxiety began to increase and I battled to sleep - to fall asleep as my thoughts were racing and I'd only fall asleep after I'd cried myself to sleep, and then waking up constantly, or waking up way too early.
I started buying OtC sleeping tabs, but they were too weak. Eventually my GP prescribed some anti anxiety and sleeping tablets, but they would knock me cold within 10 minutes, and then at 3AM I'd be wide awake. Now I have much better sleeping tabs. I try not take them every day, as I really don't want to get addicted, and they also tire my slightly the next day. But I cannot second what has already been said - A good night's sleep is so vital, especially as having BP is mentally draining and you need to be on top of your game to stay on top of things.

I too live in the Netherlands.

I wouldn't recommend buying online at all, apart from the expense and not knowing exactly what you are buying, you could get all sorts of problems with customs if caught importing medications even if for personal use.

Remeron is great for the first 6 weeks but after that it wears off. I am on it for bipolar depression but at a low dose . It is more effective for sleeping at 15mg than at a higher dose which seems contradictory but is true. I must say though a warning the 1st 4 weeks were really tough on remeron, an increase in unpleasant thinking and self doubt.


Anyway melatonin did nothing for me either. if your problem is getting prolonged sleep as mine was I suggested to my pdoc here in Amsterdam to start me off with zopiclone which gets one to sleep as it is a good anti anxiety med and also to take flurazepam which is good to prolong sleep and is readily prescribed here for that purpose.

Please do not buy online, really, the trouble you could get into just isnt worth it.

paddy - I'm also on 7.5mg Zopiclone here in South Africa. It helps with prolonged sleep, as most sleeping tabs don't let you get a full nights' sleep.

Constant thinking, yeah. BF is always (nicely) telling me that I overthink things. Which is probably true, though it's really more like obsessing as the same thoughts go 'round and 'round. I call it, "dominoes in a blender". I've been depressed for awhile now (just started posting a bit again recently, hadn't been able to deal with the effort of writing) and at those times I'm either ruminating or, like this morning (your post got me thinking about just what *is* all this noise?) when it's completely random thoughts and some connecting one to the other, then replaced by others. And for the life of me I had no idea what I had previously thought of. Even just the last thing. Didn't feel like racing thoughts though... it's more ... spaced out noise. It's mentally exhausting to be sure.

On the physical side (except when hypomanic), I do feel rather tired... not exhausted-go-to-bed kind of tired, but spaced out and disinclined in regards to motion. Tend to have rally moments though. Helluva time in the mornings... hear ya there! Tend to pick up momentum as the day goes on.

I'm thinking it might be time for a meds adjustment (have to make calls as I'm not set up here... long story). It may well be worth bringing up...

I used "neural' based on plants and "imovane". rhovane -zopiclone usually for a week, maximum two till the sleep program starts again.

I have the same problem with thoughts but after a trauma. I think that all we have such problems till the brain processes that "why", the fear, hopeless and... http://helpguide.org/mental/emotiona...cal_trauma.htm (Thanks to the bizantine for link!)

Those annoying thoughts are present for months after a trauma (in 2005 I was diagnosed with PTSD (never had BT) after I did not sleep for more than a month) but after the last one, now I can't sleep not even with a sleeping pill more than 2-3 hours and I wake up and take another sleeping pill and I have other 2-3 hours. I do not want to take more than that and it happened very rarely to take two pills in a night. Anyway I wake up as tired I go to sleep! Probably until I do not find a solution (to find some justice and that no other will suffer again what I did - something like that is going on and on in my mind) rambling thoughts will keep haunting me.

I find I mainly take my sleeping tabs when I can afford to feel slightly groggy or sleep it of (weekends really) or when I'm depressed - kind of as an escape until the morning.
Yesterday I was feeling very down and took a sleeping tab. By the time my alarm went off this morning, I was still FAST asleep and battled to get up. I also realised I spent a lot of time dreaming lst night (I need to monitor if this happens more when I'm depressed) which could have added to me feeling so tired this morning, even after 8 hours of sleep

Hi paddym22,

I wouldn't recommend buying online at all, apart from the expense and not knowing exactly what you are buying, you could get all sorts of problems with customs if caught importing medications even if for personal use.
That is exactly what I am afraid of, and therefore hesitatn to contemplate. Thanks for the warning. The only way to do it, is if my T (do ue to the fact I lived in USA for over 3 years during which time I was in therapy, and the wonderful invention of skype, I still have weekly sessions with my T in USA) could somehow get ahold of the meds and we would find a way to safely send it thru customs. A rag. But I am very tired (no pun intended) and at times pretty desperate of experimenting with all the different sleeping aids that don't work (well enough) for me.....

Remeron is great for the first 6 weeks but after that it wears off. I am on it for bipolar depression but at a low dose . It is more effective for sleeping at 15mg than at a higher dose which seems contradictory but is true. I must say though a warning the 1st 4 weeks were really tough on remeron, an increase in unpleasant thinking and self doubt.
sounds pretty nasty...

Anyway melatonin did nothing for me either. if your problem is getting prolonged sleep as mine was I suggested to my pdoc here in Amsterdam to start me off with zopiclone which gets one to sleep as it is a good anti anxiety med and also to take flurazepam which is good to prolong sleep and is readily prescribed here for that purpose.
I will talk to my pdoc about flurazepam. Thanks for the suggestion!Right now I am on Nitrazepam 5mg. Results are not yet? consistent.

Please do not buy online, really, the trouble you could get into just isnt worth it.
Thanks for your concern. I won't. Unless with my T and customs I can work something out. But will try flurazepam first.

Thanks for your post! Nice to meet a fellow country man!