[A Red Panda]

Hey all! So. Another forum I use... that's honestly a really really good little community.... has had a kinda epic fail and I need to share with people I know can relate. Any thoughts or ideas (or links to help point out what I'm trying to say!) would be nice. Mostly I'm just astounded at their response for the most part.
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A:
So then, if kinky's a non-issue, why is it pretty much the only thing they seem to give a damn about in the press?

Are we as a nation really that bipolar ?

ME:
could you perhaps not use bipolar as a descriptive term for anyone or anything who does not have to live with it? It isn't an insult - it's an illness. It's similar to saying "Are we as a nation really that gay/retarded/etc" -- you wouldn't say that because you would know that it's wrong. So is using bipolar.

A:
you know I love you dearly, and I have a lot of respect for you, both personally and as a fellow moderator.

But really, trying to PC Police the Controversy! thread is really just asking for a big ugly argument over words; which was exactly what happened with the Nazi arc in the Porn thread. The whole point of the place is to have a place where we discuss the Non-PC stuff like adults; and when I used that term, I meant it EXACTLY as you described it... are we as a nation really THAT sick, and THAT KIND of sick?

I'm sorry; but here, in this case, I feel that such usage is perfectly appropriate; it was not meant as a derogatory term.

Furthermore, I think you know that "gay" and "retarded" are not illnesses; they are not things that can be medicated or fixed. They are just different ways of being. I think we've established that about the term "gay" well enough in here; to me gay/straight/trans is a non-issue. I'm going to jump right on "retarded".

My daughter is the clinical definition of "mentally retarded"; at 3 1/2 she barely speaks a dozen words, has no concept of written language and is just now learning that making certain sounds can get her certain things that she wants. Yet the stigma which surrounds this word is so great her dozen or more specialists are all terrified to even say the word, when all it means is "considerably behind her peers in development".

They cannot find anything medically wrong with her, and the closest they will come to saying the word is "Severe Developmental Delay". The litigious attitude which makes this possible is socially retarded; as in "our society is considerably behind its peers in development". Fortunately for my daughter I am not afraid of the word, or what it means.

She continues to respond positively to all her therapies; the only problem is that she needs them regularly, and the progress is slow. This is, of course, a CONSTANT argument with Child Services and CHIP, who routinely deny her therapies at every possible opportunity; and refuse to increase the frequency of those therapies despite dozens of statements, requests and prescriptions from therapists and specialists that she desperately needs them.

Fortunately for us, she is now eligible for assistance from the School District, which hopefully will improve her progress with Head Start and after-school sessions as it did for her older brother's regressive event and subsequent socialization issues.

So yes, I believe I will stick with my usage of these terms, my friend. And I hope, in view of this explanation, that you can rest easy, knowing I would not mean to disparage anyone suffering from any form of Bipolar Disorder.

B:
I agree with A. The word bipolar means all kinds of things, not just Bipolar Disorder. I thought it was pretty clear from the context used that it meant "
characterized by opposite extremes, as two conflicting political philosophies", not anything disparaging about people with Bipolar Disorder.

C:
Re: bipolar - I concur, it was properly used.

A:
Well now. This is not controversial at all.

*Runs around the room slapping folks with largish trouts*

*Runs around the room, slapping the folks that DON'T HAVE LARGISH TROUTS WITH MEDIUM TROUTS*

*Runs away from all the disgruntled trouts*

Me:
I wasn't saying it as a mod; I wasn't saying that he was wrong; I was just saying that is IS insensitive. It also perpetuates and helps promote stigma. YOU guys might not see it, use it, or interpret it that way... but we already know that website's folks tend to be a lot more sensible than the general wordly population.

I was pointing it out on a more personal level as I'm diagnosed with bipolar. It is almost always used with negative connotations, and there is a lot of stigma around it, and using it lightly does help spread that.

That was it.

A:
Babe... I try to live by 2 simple rules:

1) Don't bother anybody.
2) Don't be too easily bothered.

Where, in the grand scheme of things, do you imagine this whole exchange fits?

My granddad taught me that words are just that; words. Until people turn 'em into laws, they can't hurt you. Consider the source and move on. If someone is offended by the mere mention of a word, even in correct context, then that really is in their own head. It's unreasonable to expect the rest of the world to walk on eggshells because of it.

"If you don't like a man's words, write them down, set fire to the paper; beat the ashes with a stick. There, you've defeated them. If you don't like a man's ideas, then you have yourself a much tougher battle."

D:Words are more than just words, A. They carry ideas and history and stigma. That's why we don't use, say, the n-word. You do not solely get to decide what words mean.

For example, calling someone "babe" is sexist and condescending. Particularly in this context, where you are attempting to dismiss her valid concerns in the midst of a heated and serious debate.

Frankly, I'm surprised by the reaction here. I thought the people around here were more sensitive, supportive, and understanding when it comes to social stigmas, and wiser when it comes to knowing that words carry social and historical baggage whether you want them to or not.

B:
I thought it was clear in the context that bipolar was being used completely out of the context of mental health, and that the 'polar opposites' sense was clear. I understand though that others can see the word used and immediately think that it is being used as an insult, even when it isn't. I'm not sure that we need to do anything about this though; someone reading another unitended meaning into a word doesn't make the original use improper.
I don't think I would stop describing things that are bipolar with that word, if it's the best way to say "characterised by two opposed natures", because I can't find any words in my thesaurus that mean "bipolar" - unless I use "Janus-faced", which is a little to obscure for everyday communication.

E:
Google "bipolar." You don't get one single result on the first page having to do with anything but bipolar disorder. The argument that it means something else is not supported by reality.

A wrote:The whole point of the place is to have a place where we discuss the Non-PC stuff like adults;

Get back to me when you start acting like one, Babe.

B:
I just wanted to mention a couple of words and a couple of their meanings which have been floating around the forum recently.

Nazi
1. a member of the National Socialist German Workers' party of Germany and all the associated evil which runs to quite the paragraph
2. a person who is fanatically dedicated to or seeks to control a specified activity, practice, etc.
(Try not to use the newer meaning, it gets tangled up with the old one)

bipolar
1. having or characterized by two opposed opinions, natures, etc
2. suffering from bipolar manic-depressive disorder
(Try not to use the older meaning, it gets tangled up with the new one)

Some morals from this.

1. If a word has two meanings, one of which might be controversial, stay the hell away from it, because even if you are trying to use one meaning, someone might think you mean the other one. It doesn't matter if it's a new meaning grown out of the old, or an old meaning subsumed by the new - just find different words to use. Be sensitive.

2. If a word has two meanings, one of which might be controversial, and someone does use it, try not to leap to the assumption that they're using the controversial meaning without some kind of evidence. It's quite possible they're not trying to wind you up or say mean things.

3. Calling someone you are arguing with "Babe" is a really really bad idea.


D:
No, those are not the morals to take away from this.

Here's my take:

Words have meaning. They carry ideas. Be aware of that. Even if you don't mean any harm, you can do harm. To specific people and wider groups.

It's not that Definition 2 is controversial. It's not that people are misunderstanding what's meant (though that's also a problem in general).

Bipolar Disorder is a real, medical thing. A mental health issue. One with a long-standing stigma attached to it. The usage here was calling the country bipolar in order to convey the idea that our culture is crazy in a specific and bad way. That gives strength to the stigma attached to being a bipolar patient. (And also mischaracterizes the actual disorder and its common symptoms.)

For example: When you use "gay" as an insult, you are inherently perpetuating the stereotype that being gay is a bad thing, and that gay people are weak or inferior. That does real harm. And the more it's done, the more the culture stigma becomes set. It's the same thing here with bipolar.

Nazi is a different, though related matter. Hitler's Nazi regime was a real thing that caused unspeakable horror. Torture. Genocide. Terror. And more. Misusing the term demeans that tragedy. Gets people used to thinking about it as something fictional or exaggerated or commonplace. Something that doesn't matter.

Read this article, entitled The R Word. All three pages. (It's not that long, really, but it's very important.) It's about rape. And it makes important points about rape. But it also talks about people who misuse the word and the consequences it can have. How it's not a matter of being offended by the word, but rather the real harm it can do. How saying that it's part of an existing culture is no excuse.

This idea that you can use words however you want, and if other people are hurt by it, that's their problem... it just doesn't float.

The idea that plenty of people have already coopted certain words, so we should just sit back and accept it? Just because the people around you are doing it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Sometimes you have to speak out against the crowd and get people to rethink their ideas.

Words are not just words. Words carry ideas. Words can change the way people think. Words can hurt people. And that's why we have rules here in Controversy, despite the fact that it's an online forum where sticks and stones physically can't exist. If words were just words, we wouldn't need moderators or rules at all. Come to that, if words were just words, there would be no point at all to posting here at all because our words could have no effect on others.

F:
I'll say.. I'm split here...

Bipolar, as have been pointed out is a word, with several menings:

bipolar - definition of bipolar by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. wrote:bi·po·lar (b-plr)
adj.
1. Relating to or having two poles or charges.
2. Relating to a device capable of using two polarizations, such as a transistor that uses positive and negative charge carriers.
3. Relating to or involving both of the earth's polar regions.
4. Having two opposite or contradictory ideas or natures: the bipolar world of the postwar period.
5. Biology Having two poles or opposite extremities: a bipolar neuron.
6. Psychology Relating to a major affective disorder that is characterized by episodes of mania and depression.

bi•po•lar (baɪˈpoʊ lər)

adj.
1. having two poles, as the earth.
2. of, pertaining to, or found at both polar regions.
3. characterized by opposite extremes.
4. of or pertaining to a transistor that uses both positive and negative charge carriers.

Yes... it is used to define mental state, but its not its first, main or original meaning.
being bipolar, while I have a sister diagnosed with it, I can only imagine is not fun, BUT.... it is not an insult.
saying that it is is the same as saying its an insult to tell a person with the flue that they have the flue, or that they are coughing.. its not an insult, its a fact about their current state.
using Bipolar as an insult is in my opinion a "stupid" action where its used without knowing its meaning...

If you cannot make up your mind between two opposites, you are of currently bipolar opinions or ideas.
If a nations common folk are of one opinion and the news reports reports or the government propagates the opposite, the nation is of bipolar ideas/moods. thus, bipolar as a nation, even if you will, hte mind of the nation suffers from a bipolar disorder. BECAUSE.. there is no single direction in mind for the nation...

Bipolar is a word that I'd say no one should take as an insult, not even out of context... the sad thing her is, that people with Bipolar Disorder, due to the disorder, are at risk for taking it as just that,, simply due to the disorder and not necessarily due to any previous experience with the word.

Now.. NazI:

Nazi is a word invented, by people who fled from the National Socialist German Workers' party's rule of Germany and its bordering nations.

Online Etymology Dictionary wrote:The 24th edition of Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache (2002) says the word Nazi was favored in southern Germany (supposedly from c.1924) among opponents of National Socialism because the nickname Nazi, Naczi (from the masc. proper name Ignatz, German form of Ignatius) was used colloquially to mean "a foolish person, clumsy or awkward person." Ignatz was a popular name in Catholic Austria, and according to one source in World War I Nazi was a generic name in the German Empire for the soldiers of Austria-Hungary.

the word was made directly to make fun of, and/or insult them.
sadly, it did not have that effect, instead the Nazi's took the word and decided it was a good label, because, all the things people made fun of and looked down upon with the word, was things that the Nazi's prized and were proud of...

Thus, this word was invented and intended as an insult... and to make it even worse, was gladly taken to hearth of some of history worst murders and more...

To this day, nazi have gained many new meanings, but all of them are negative, while far most more light than the original, still negative.

but what really makes this the closest to a no-no word in my book (if any no-no words exists) is the fact that people who lived under and were suppressed by the nazies are still around.. and you could hurt them.. them personally.

so.. Nazi.. I wont use unless i actually talk about a real nazi... but... I don't think its so wrong to actually do it.... language is.. a living thing...

Saying god damn it/you, literately meant, that you wanted, and believed that god would damn who or what so ever you talked about... many people have been tortured, burned, hanged and decapitated just after hearing those words from the mouth of an official...
yet.. today, no one(okay, a few) would look wrong at you for saying:

"God damn Honey, I forgot my lunch today, are there any possibility you can swing by the office with it on your way to work?"
most likely, the world Honey is the one people would react to.. cause its "sexist"
yet, you do ask god to Damn your beloved to eternity in agony and pain in hell...

but we don't see it that way anymore.. does that make the things that happened during the Witch-hunts just a small 400 years ago that less meaning full or horrible.. no.. it don't... but words have evolved...


what I try to say.

If the word was designed as an insult, and is still an insult, use it as an insult.
If the word was designed as an insult, but is no longer one, use it with care, making sure your context is right.
If the word is not designed as an insult, but CAN be used as an insult, look at context before feeling insulted.
If the word is not designed as an insult, and cannot be used as it directly, only feel insulted if its actually aimed as an insult.. and if you can, are capable of, lough at the idiot who used a word wrong when trying to be a smart ***....

Well.. that's my 2 cents anyways...

G:
I think we should probably make our own judgements about who might get offended by what words, and then decide whether or not we care enough about them being offended to avoid using that word. You cannot tell someone they are wrong for being offended by something - it depends on the word and on the person, but overall the most important thing to remember is that people can be hurt even when it doesn't seem logical to you. Just because you can build a rational argument for why someone shouldn't be offended - which really tends to be patronizing and presumptuous - doesn't mean they won't be. So there's no point in arguing that people should or should not be offended by a certain thing. Accept that people might be, and then decide whether or not that's important enough to you that you would avoid using a word altogether.

If someone habitually insulted someone else every day and made them feel bad about themselves, it might be easy for that person to tell themselves - 'hey, they're just words - they wouldn't have any impact unless that person chose to consider them relevant. That means it's all in their heads.' But that oversimplifies how the human mind works. Frankly, any kind of pain or suffering is 'in our heads', isn't it? That doesn't mean we choose to feel it or that we could shut it off at will. If we hit someone, we cause them pain, and the same thing can happen if we insult someone.

But it's not about limiting your freedom of speech, or forcing you to walk on eggshells. You are free to use whatever words you wish. The point is that you have to accept that people can get hurt by your words and they are not being overly sensitive, they are not wrong, and they may respond to you if your words upset them. You shouldn't trivialize someone else's feelings - just recognize them for what those people claim them to be, and do with that information what you will.

Me:

F wrote:Bipolar is a word that I'd say no one should take as an insult, not even out of context... the sad thing her is, that people with Bipolar Disorder, due to the disorder, are at risk for taking it as just that,, simply due to the disorder and not necessarily due to any previous experience with the word.

Just going to say here: you are wrong about that. I am not offended BECAUSE I have bipolar. My mood disorder doesn't dictate what I think about the word. I have always been well-aware of the original definition and would have preferred if the world had left "bipolar disorder" as "manic depression".

It is because almost everyone who DOESN'T already know someone with bipolar? They think that it means psychotic, or crazy, or exhibiting things very much like schizophrenia. There is, in fact, a great deal of stigma around bipolar disorder (amongst most other mental health issues), and those of you in here who are going "hey, it's not the original meaning of the word, don't be offended" are furthering both stigma about bipolar and the issues around mental health in general.

The original meaning of the word "gay" is "happy". It is commonly accepted now that the primary usage of the word is to reflect a group of people, and that it should not be used in a manner that is offensive.
The original meaning of the word "retarded" is "Less advanced, esp. mentally, than is usual for one's age.". It is not acceptable to use the word retarded in any context, even one that fits its original definition, because it is viewed as uncessarily offensive.
One definition of the word rape is "an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force" which is how it is often used in gaming. It is not viewed as acceptable because it so clearly references sexual assault.

Unless you are writing a scientific paper or discussing the polarity of the planet (or things in space), then when you use the word "bipolar" it is going to most commonly be intrepreted as "crazy and moody and irrationally emotional". When you call a country bipolar, that is the defitinition that will most easily come to mind because why on earth is someone just referencing the fact that the nation has two poles? No, when you call a country bipolar because of two differing thoughts and opinions the country displays... you are calling that country crazy. It would be just as accurate to refer to the country's double standards, and it would have had zero impact on any stigma anywhere.

I have not said that A was inaccurate in his usage of the word. As I have said already: I was simply pointing out that it was insensitive and I thought that people here actually you know, cared a bit about NOT doing things that would spread stigmas. I was pointing it out in the hopes that he would reconsider using it in the future.

Instead, I have been shown pretty clearly that mental health actually doesn't matter at all here. Which is a sad thing to observe.

ETA: The reason why calling a country bipolar is more likely to reflect on the disorder is because of personification. The country was being treated like a person - and so the application of the word bipolar in regards to a person would get applied.

H:
Wow. This thread is really not what I was expecting...

For what it's worth, this thread has opened my eyes somewhat to an issue I hadn't really considered. I won't pretend I understand mental health issues and I'm going to place partial blame for that on cultural influence - it's still something that no-one really talks about which is a shame because it affects soooo many people. But I will admit that it's also something I've just not given much thought to which is my responsibility.

Anyway, I just wanted to post to say thanks for pointing it out lin. It's made me consider a few things I hadn't thought about before and it'll make me more careful (less casual) with my own language as a result.

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G:

Yes, it is insightful. However, I don't think it's a good thing you are accusing everyone here of being uncaring towards other people's mental health. People have different backgrounds, and people without a background relating to bipolar disorder will not be aware of the stigmas surrounding it. Rather than assuming these people are all insensitive jerks who are simply out to hurt others, understand that there will initially be a lot of misunderstanding between two sides of the argument. People without your background will think you are overreacting, and will feel like you are wrong for telling them it would be better to use a different term. You can see it in this thread, right? Pointing a finger and accusing people isn't going to help that - it will only make everyone more on edge. You can't expect me to understand you just like that when my background is completely different from yours. It takes time and maybe it takes a lot of talking, if that's how much effort both sides are willing to put into it.

We cannot simply snap our fingers and understand each other. I understand the frustration when it feels like people just don't care, but try not to immediately conclude they are insensitive jerks. If you want to change someone's mind about something, you need to be very patient and probably have to let a lot of stuff slide for the sake of getting somewhere. If we don't have that patience, we can't expect to convince anyone of anything.

And of course, that goes for both sides of the argument, of any argument, not just for you.

Me:
You are rephrasing my words into a much more negative view. I have NEVER said that I think or feel like anyone here in an insensitive jerks out to hurt others - I don't think anyone here is out to hurt others at all. I also did not say that EVERYONE is being uncaring.

What I said was

Originally Posted by me

Instead, I have been shown pretty clearly that mental health actually doesn't matter at all here. Which is a sad thing to observe.

Which is the ONLY thing I've said in this entire thread that is actually very personal. So I will explain it further.

By standing strong and going "you shouldn't be offended by the usage of this word because it is fitting within it's actual definition" it is saying "the more commonly used definition of this word, a mood disorder, does not need to be considered because everyone should just KNOW that I do not mean to use that despite it being used much more widely in this regard". So yes, when I point out that it is an insensitive thing to say and that it is reinforcing stigma, and then to have most people in the thread dismiss that, it IS being willfully uncaring, and that IS a very sad thing for me to observe because I think better of everyone here than their choices are showing.

Please do not put words into my mouth. I do not expect to "snap my fingers" and make everyone understand each other. I have not even implied that it should occur like that. I have not concluded that anyone is an insenitive jerk - I have in fact NEVER used the word jerk in this thread.

And quite frankly - my original post WAS being very patient. I have been quite patient until this post, because you are completely misrepresenting me.

F:
Quick notes to clarify my stand.

Me wrote:

Fwrote:Bipolar is a word that I'd say no one should take as an insult, not even out of context... the sad thing her is, that people with Bipolar Disorder, due to the disorder, are at risk for taking it as just that,, simply due to the disorder and not necessarily due to any previous experience with the word.

Just going to say here: you are wrong about that. I am not offended BECAUSE I have bipolar. My mood disorder doesn't dictate what I think about the word.

Well.. I'm sorry if it came across as me saying that You as, in you personally, were offended by the word due to being bipolar. that was not my intention. my intention was to tell that some people with bipolar, might get offended due to their Bipolar disorder, because they would have no set opinion on the matter, and it is, (sadly) more easy to take offence than accept.
my sister is one such sad example.. as a bipolar she is often undecided on anything that can affect her mood, such as her reaction to words that may or may not insult a person. and more often than not, that results in her going into a tantrum over words. even words that she have no idea what means. a weary good example (and here it's important to note that mys sister have little skill in English) is:
**One day on a family holiday, My mother and I was talking to another person we had meet, and she asked my mom "so, that's your Son! so I take it that the young lady is your daughter or is it his Girlfriend?" and my mother answers, "Oh no! that is indeed my two beloved children" now. after this, the conversation continues and so does the day.. after half an hour or so, my sister starts to get moody and angry about everything.
when my mom asks what it is, she wont answer... later that evening I talk to her, and she asks why I'm not mad, as "She knew I heard what mom called us"
as it turns out, she did not understand the function of the adjective "be" in "beloved" and, having not been able to come up with a conclusion, she "decided" that it must have been negative, and in Unloved**

so no.. my intention was not to say your offence by the word was due to it, it was to say it is a possible reason for some.

Me wrote:It is not acceptable to use the word retarded in any context, even one that fits its original definition, because it is viewed as uncessarily offensive.

Hmm... well.. I guess that's just me and my country then... in DK, the word "rataderet" (retarded) is used freely to describe anything from the actual lack of evolvment in an individual, to a bad and hasty made decisions... and I've newer once med someone to take offence by it.. not saying no one can be insulted, just saying I've newer seen anyone be so... that said.. I do tend to think about my wordings before actually talking, so I might just have avoided the word whenever it could have been offensive...

Me wrote:Unless you are writing a scientific paper or discussing the polarity of the planet (or things in space), then when you use the word "bipolar" it is going to most commonly be intrepreted as "crazy and moody and irrationally emotional".

Hmm.. sorry.. but that's not my experience... my experience is that people, even when its used to describe my sisters condition! most commonly have no clue what the H. I'm talking about... If i want them to get just an idea of where she is, I have to use the word "manic" and THAT is a trigger word if any. because people have so strong opinions on it....

so... yea...

that said... out of respect for you and for others on this forum, I'll (try my very best) not to use the word Bipolar nor the words Nazi, Gay, Rape or any of the like unless I specifically talk about a subject where it is the right word to use in any and full context.
it is my hope than, that should I slip, that anyone who might get offended by the word, will try not to take it personal, and remember, that offence was in no way its intention in my usage...

Me:
F:

Is your sister also diagnosed with Borderline? Unless she was in a manic state, having an explosive reaction is NOT a symptom of bipolar disorder. If that was how she reacted. If she misunderstood the word - that is simply your sister. Bipolar disorder is not associated with having difficulty understanding language. Having bipolar does not equal being oversensitive to things (although until you understand how you are in various states there can be some identity crisis as you don't know which is the real you!).

And yeah, a lot of people here will basically go bipolar=manic=psychotic=crazy=(1. explosive temper tantrums ala Borderline Personality Disorder or 2. like Schizophrenia, depending on their intrepretation).

Thank you for considering your words F.

[comicgeek007]

D and H are pretty cool guys/gals. And g.

Who knows, though? A was probably some no-life a**hat who takes pleasure in upsetting people. This is the internet, after all.

[A Red Panda]

no... This is actually a pretty close-knit community. Every single one of the posters has been someone I've had interactions with for ages, and until these... I've always respected everything they've said.

This part of the forum that this thread is in is a closed group. You can't even see it until I think you've made 10 posts.

[Trippin2.0]

*shakes head in disbelief.
Idk what to say that I haven't said on FB... I find this so sad really

[venusss]

Tbh, as somebody who studied International Relations....

bipolar was a power situation of cold war. Two power centers. So there's terms outside of MH to use it.

Honestly, I think they were truly using the term politically as opposed to psychologically. It was an appropriate usage of the word in the context of a political remark. I understand what you are saying, but in this case specifically, I really think the person was using the term politically.

[unaluna]

Wow. Coming from a scientific background, I would have assumed the scientific meaning in his use of bipolar. I didnt think he meant it as "unreasonable" - more that the nation switches from one emphasis to another. But then I'm more fluid in gender identity also, so switching isn't as big an issue? Why are we saying bipolar is a bad thing? Why can't both things be true, at the same time or at different times?

So my "vote" is for bipolar to become or stay ultimately a positive word. But I think because of my age, I missed the part where it became a stigma word.

I want to be clear. I hate the usage of bipolar as a derogatory description of a person's behavior as much as anyone, but in this particular context, it really doesn't seem like that was the usage.

[comicgeek007]

Not knowing anything about the thread, that's just my initial conclusions. This is much worse, though. I'msorry your internet friendgroup doesn't understand.

[Trippin2.0]

Actually no, he was not being politically correct here's a quote of him admitting he means "mental"

"I meant it EXACTLY as you described it... are we as a nation really THAT sick, and THAT KIND of sick?"

That was A's reply to Panda when she requested some sensitivity.

[Skittles56]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[Anika.]

I saw that too Trippin, and the other part about the other use..older meaning .. sounds like back peddling.

[Anika.]

Originally Posted by Skittles56

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Depends...what you see as a head of a pin.. ( point of a pin ) others might see value in the point.

Or..It is dependent on the assumed mass of the angels, with a maximum number of 8.6766*10exp49 angels at the critical angel mass (3.8807*10exp-34 kg). Just one possible answer I came across, someone saw the value in trying to figure that one out.

[A Red Panda]

Like Trippin' said... he did explicitly state that he DID mean illness.

I also wasn't demanding he change anything or apologize or anything of the sort - I was just pointing out how it can often be interpreted! For him to then resort to calling me "Babe" to dismiss me? ((On this particular forum, gender and equality issues have been a rather big topic... the only person who has been banned from this part of that forum has been for being a gigantic sexist))...

If I knew that I was saying something that was really insensitive towards an entire group of people.. I'd rather like to know about it, and that's sorta how people tend to be in that community. So I've just been rather shocked by their reaction - and hurt.

[pegasus]

A. needs slapping with his own trout I think

Unfortunately you'll not get everyone to 'get' how hurtful the comment was to you. Breathe, let it go for now and in time you can gently educate your friends there.

[Anika.]

Panda, I would assume they do know what you are saying, and I suspect they know how words work, stigma and all that. Otherwise it would have been easier to say "oh, I didn't think of it like that" or whatever, rather than run to google and grab definition and a defence. A leaky defence since A already stated he indeed did mean it that way. Maybe A forgot what he said the first time or thought somehow it went unnoticed. Either way hard to discuss something with someone who will not stand by there own words.

Usually when people become that defensive after the fact, they do know but maybe they do not care, or do not care to acknowledge it. I would just leave it at you tried, sometimes people people dig their heals in just for the sake of it.

Babe.... well see.. who calls someone babe when haveing this type of conversation. Seemed there was a purpose in that. Maybe A just forgot about his #1 rule.

Just don't let it get to you too much. I believe they heard you, just don't want to admit that they get it, they did get it in other contexts so seems they can grasp the concept fine.

Hey one person said thanks and that they would think about their own language and words. And that is something, it made someone think about it feel good about that.

[A Red Panda]

Yeah, I'm not responding in the thread anymore. I think I just needed a little bit of support here that I DIDN'T over-react with my first two posts.

I picked up on what Trippin said too. He meant exactly what you thought he meant.

And not even recognizing the similarity between the two instances of dealing with a child with a mental challenge (mental retardation or whatever he/she wants to call it) and what a person with bipolar disorder deals with.

If you had two children in school with either one of these issues, as a parent you would be going to child study meetings, IEP meetings, talking to specialists and special education teachers and talking about individualized appropriate settings (because special education is a program, not a place, it does not have to happen in a special room). The children may not have similar IEPs but the process for helping the child succeed in school would be the same. So the argument of making the retarded child somehow more important in her circumstances than the person with bipolar is invalid. In my opinion. I'm not sure I could have kept as cool a head as you did.

I will clarify, not all children with bipolar would be in special education, I was just making the point that one was not necessarily more important than the other simply based on the reason for the mental challenge.

[A Red Panda]

Thanks emomom - I view all three (sexuality, intellectual capacity, and other mental health disorders) as being the same in the regards that they are all things which will effect you life-long. They'll affect you in different ways, and some MAY be more easy to live with - but those cases are deteremined on an individual basis. Like.. I'm extremely high-functioning and I can manage my life a-ok (fingers crossed it doesn't kick my arse later in life!) but that I know there are others on the board who are in need of a lot of assistance - so I've been lucky.

The issues are just different depending on what the issue is. (redundant sentence I know, but I just don't know how to say it!)

[unaluna]

Just wanted to add - is this guy practicing to become a shock jock? Because I wonder if he was hoping someone would pick up on the word bipolar. And then to use babe. He's like a howard stern wannabe.