[venusss]

DBSA Target Zero - Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance

I came across of this.

It sounds great at first glance, but there are few problems with it:

1) despite trying to pose hope, the whole article sounds fear mongering and can actually cause harm. Apparently, if you have symptoms you can DIE. Isn't it kinda conterproductive to tell that to people.

2) Zero symptoms strategy rely on medication only. And seriously, are the side effects worth not having even mild symptoms? In a way it sounds as eastern european medicine (aka: feeling sick or in pain? Take this. You will still feel sick but you will be as high as kite/zonked out you will not CARE you feel sick).

3) So let's say you have a med combo that works relativelly well, but do get sometimes depressed or bit manicky. Nothing serious. But according to target zero.... this puts you at risk. But... isn't it more risky to meddle with existing med coctail that works and allows you to live and risk upsetting it?

4) Many people will mistake feelings and quirks for symptoms. We see lot of posts here about "I do this <insert perfectly normal behavior that many people do> does it mean I am manic, should I see my doctor about it?". Seriously, we live in society where losing keys became symptom of illness instead unfortunate fact of life.

5) It pushes the "you can't do anything for yourself to the extreme".

6)

• more likely to have life‐threatening co‐occurring conditions, such as heart disease, hypertension, and diabetes—a huge factor in why individuals with mental health conditions die, on average, 25 years younger than those without mental health conditions

Does it even occur to those people diabetes and 25 years off lifespan can be actually... due to the drugs used to treat this condition? Bipolar doesn't cause diabetes. Bad eating can contribute to it. And certain class of drugs comes with warnings they can cause it.

“Living with a mood disorder can damage hope and lower expectations; so a person may not expect or think they deserve a full life. We, as peers, clinicians, researchers, and family, need to help them expect and achieve more—by raising the bar for treatment. Targeting zero symptoms may seem like a formidable goal, but there are over 21 million reasons and Americans living with depression or bipolar disorder to make it a goal worth pursuing!”

So they instill fear in people that having any symptom means they will relapse and kill themselves and raise hypervigilance.

[venusss]

Also.... I do not like the idea that you cannot thrive, unless you have zero symptoms....

thriving is about something else.

[yagalada]

The DBSA gets a lot of funding from various pharmaceutical companies so it seems logical they would be pushing meds on people instead of coping skills. I'm med free now, and learning to live with my symptoms.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by yagalada

The DBSA gets a lot of funding from various pharmaceutical companies so it seems logical they would be pushing meds on people instead of coping skills. I'm med free now, and learning to live with my symptoms.

Kinda scary though they would shill to people who are already medicated :////

[Lobster Hands]

I've gone in and out of agreeance (idk if agreeance is a word...it deserves to be) with this topic for years. The idea is good but the application seems flaky at best...it's too hard to be perfect.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

[Confusedinomicon]

I agree with you, Venus. I think hyper vigilance actually makes the illness worse.

[r010159]

I think it is a good goal, but one that is likely not attainable. I remember a pdoc (my first) who prescribed me Norpramine. I was still depressed but he kept me at a dub-theraputic dose. Another pdoc increased Norpramine to therapeutic levels. I was still struggling with depression. Then I came across a doctor who was aggressive in my treatment. Eventually I was in full remission for awhile. But then later I became depressed again.

This "symptom free" goal is elusive at best. But I think it still should be a goal that the doctor is constantly working towards. But at some point both doctor and patient may need to concede that a partial recovery is a more workable solution.

[krisakira]

I don't think there's anyone with a mood disorder who doesn't strive for zero symptoms but there's no cure and meds only go so far. This might make it seem as though if you have ANY symptoms of your disorder, then you aren't doing something right. This opens people up to think that you're not not good enough until you don't have any symptoms.

[krisakira]

Plus it's not the same as cancer. IT's more like pain management. You wouldn't tell someone with chronic pain that they're not better until they feel absolutely no pain at all would you? They'd have to overdose on pain medication to feel NOTHING.

[Confusedinomicon]

Do you think that the goal of zero-symptoms can alienate you from those who are supposed to be supporting you in recovery? I almost feel like it can be damaging because it's easy to say, "that behavior is an outlier so they need a med change!"

It seems like a lot of people experience this from their loved ones instead of listening to the sufferer and telling them their feelings are valid. Why is the social aspect of mental illness ignored? There was an article on suicide I recently read that indicated feelings of purpose and seclusion to a group contribute to negative thoughts and behaviors. (Lol I am so broad here!) We talk a lot about stigma and that loved ones don't understand. You don't need to understand to make a person feel that their problems are valid. My SO doesn't understand me on that emotional level and honestly I don't understand him. It's nice to relate, but feels better that he doesn't make me feel bad for my feelings.

How do you break stigma if you aren't making it a social issue and focusing on the medical side? We know that it's a medical disease (brain chemistry, etc) but it's symptoms present in social ways. I actually hate the premise that the emotional side of the disorder is ignored in a lot of these articles.

If i had my way thought, schools would be required to teach and re-teach the idea of LISTENING. Lol

/end rant

[Capriciousness]

I agree krisakira,

Part of what I had to realize when first medicated and is that it doesn't make the bipolar magically go away. That I will still have symptoms. I will always be Bipolar. And I realized that just feeling BETTER was enough. Just feeling like everything was mostly good is just a okay. Once I accepted that I was much happier.

The goal and the unrealistic idea of having absolutely zero symptoms would set a lot of people up to feel bad

Bipolar is just more complicated than that.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by krisakira

I don't think there's anyone with a mood disorder who doesn't strive for zero symptoms but there's no cure and meds only go so far. This might make it seem as though if you have ANY symptoms of your disorder, then you aren't doing something right. This opens people up to think that you're not not good enough until you don't have any symptoms.

for me personally, it's about learning to body surf the emotions, to be able to decipher the out-of-there stuff (hallucinations, flashvisions, death related stuff), rather then flattening that out....

So... I don't really wanna get rid of it, despite people saying it means I will relapse and DIE! I may, but... you cannot say I didn't have thriving moments. Which I might not have if I had gone chasing zero symptom chimera and put my life on hold while experimenting with the unfun drugs.

[~Christina]

No one has Zero symptoms in life Bipolar or not .. My husband gets in a foul mood every once in a while and that is ok .. so hes pissed at something or nothing at all .. he has no mental illness.

I would not want to be snowed under with a gazillion meds .. I like my ups and downs .. Its part of who I am.

I would not get rid of my Bipolar..... my Chronic pain well that a whole other issue .

[Nightside of Eden]

Originally Posted by ~Christina

No one has Zero symptoms in life Bipolar or not ..

Very true. Zero symptoms is a nice thought, but thinking that treatment is inadequate if it doesn't achieve that is dangerous for all the reasons others have brought up.

My symptoms are probably 75-80% controlled on my current meds. I no longer have to deal with mixed episodes and the depressions are shorter and no longer make me suicidal. I consider this a huge improvement and can cope with the depression I still get sometimes. I would not want to continually be trying to increase my meds seeking some zero-symptom ideal.

[r010159]

I think the onus should be on the pdoc. There should never be anything considered "wrong" or "bad" with the sufferer. But if they still have symptoms that could be managed better with medication, then the pdoc is the one who is not doing their job. Heck, in this case, I would have allot if empathy for the MI and absolutely none for the doctor. It should never be patients that are shunned, but the doctors themselves.

(Oh boy! I can see a rant coming out of me. Better stop here.)

[Nammu]

How about the goal of zero side effects on those psych meds they are pushing? In my experience they most often push meds to alleviate the symptoms that bother other people at the expense of a persons physical health.

I'd say my goal would be to achieve a meaningful gainful life with the least amount of medication and using as many of the alternative methods such as eating healthy and meditating as possible to achieve a reduction in symptoms.

[LoneLabRat]

That's awesome!!! That's exactly where I want to be...just a few more tweaks here and there. Congrats and stay strong

[LoneLabRat]

Originally Posted by sidestepper

How about the goal of zero side effects on those psych meds they are pushing? In my experience they most often push meds to alleviate the symptoms that bother other people at the expense of a persons physical health.

I'd say my goal would be to achieve a meaningful gainful life with the least amount of medication and using as many of the alternative methods such as eating healthy and meditating as possible to achieve a reduction in symptoms.

Amen to that!

[Trippin2.0]

Zero symptoms imply there's a cure...

I wish people would stop spreading such pipe dreams, especially since they've never even come up with a bipolar med yet. And no, this time I'm not even gonna count lithium as such because only a handful of people tolerate it well. Plenty of others need treatment for side effects (tremors and thyroid) and damage it causes (kidneys) and then you get me, who became retarded from it. No side effect pill for retardation and permanent memory loss...

So yeah, I wish people would stop spewing such bull, its not gonna help us, and it sure as hell ain't gonna help our support systems.