Can bipolar symptoms change an honest person into a criminal

Mrs. Mania · Feb 24, 2015, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopherLee

This is becoming an interesting conversation.

As this was a generalized question about a condition that has many facets, it is impossible to pinpoint a "yes or no" answer.

As what I posted is MY generalized opinion, let me expand.

I agree with one post. If you are predisposed, for whatever reason, to criminal behavior, I won't deny that dealing with bipolar will make it more difficult to keep yourself in check.

So, let's ask this:

If one feels that bipolar is contributing to criminal behavior, what led to the criminal behavior in the first place?

1. Is one in a Manic State? Is that person feeling "King of the World" with thinking "No one can stop me" despite knowing the act is criminal? Is one making a choice to ignore that warning of "this isn't right" or does that person really not understand at the time that what they are doing is wrong?

2. Is one in a Depressive State? Are they just so far down in their depression that they don't care if they get caught or not? Are they doing it looking for a way to feel better about themselves?

3. A comment was brought up about psychosis. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, Bipolar Psychosis can cause a break with reality. I am not condoning criminal activity in this state, but I can see how this break with reality can contribute as one may not even realize what they are doing is wrong.

So, I guess it depends, IMO, on the actual state. Is one performing criminal activity without regard for realizing what they are doing is wrong, but continuing anyway, or are they in full blown psychosis and just do not realize it.

What leads me to vandalism #1 ' No one can stop me' is needing to break the rules. I feel smothered by the restraints of societies laws that I mostly disagree with.

What led me to shoplifting #2 ' I don't care if I get caught' was hunger. 3 hots and a cot doesn't sound bad when your living in the park.

Feb 24, 2015, 11:05 PM

And thus you made a choice in both instances, and for a reason that maybe only you understood, but there was a reason... and understood the consequences. Did bipolar in itself cause is? IMO no, but a contributing factor to the decision making...

And 3 hots and a cots sometimes is the better choice. I wouldn't wish it on anyone... but I know many that made that choice, especially this time of year.

Feb 25, 2015, 01:22 AM

I agree completely. ^ It is a hard life to have bipolar. And when you are not thinking "clearly" or are in dire straits because you are in need or you can not control your impulses it can cause you to make some bad choices.

It is definitely a valid defense in a court of law.

Mrs. Mania · Feb 25, 2015, 11:27 AM

[COLOR="Red"] UPDATE!!! Just got two traffic tickets! Quite a coincidence that I just happened to get up high in the sky. I didn't even take a.m.meds, I did however drink a bit of coffee. Screw The Man, you can stick it your ticket

Feb 25, 2015, 12:51 PM

Road rage is my thing.

Confusedinomicon · Feb 25, 2015, 01:33 PM

I think psychosis causing someone to "break the law" because of hallucinations/delusions is an outlier in behavior.

I also liked the alcohol analogy. I do think it lowers inhibitions and increases the need for adrenalin/feel good brain neurons because its easier to feel "high". I don't think it makes a person a 'criminal' though.

Gareth Monkton · Mar 11, 2015, 01:22 AM

It has been an interesting and varied discussion.

1) is the answer "it depends if the action is premeditated or on impulse" ?
2) is it different when psychotic ; not in touch with reality, no sense of judgement ?

Mar 11, 2015, 03:31 PM

I have psychotic episodes and I am more of a danger to myself that others. I do not feel impulses for illegal activity nor impulses to kill or anything else.

Illnesses don't make criminals. Inability to control yourself does.

Mar 11, 2015, 08:11 PM

Exactly. ^ Impulse control can have a lot to do with it.

Gareth Monkton · Mar 12, 2015, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticInsanity

I have psychotic episodes and I am more of a danger to myself that others. I do not feel impulses for illegal activity nor impulses to kill or anything else.

Illnesses don't make criminals. Inability to control yourself does.

BUT can the illness possibly be the cause of not being able to control oneself ; loss of impulse control when severely ill.

Mar 12, 2015, 12:44 AM

YES! you need to see a therapist and I need to stop answering you.

Gareth Monkton · Mar 13, 2015, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

YES! you need to see a therapist and I need to stop answering you.

Your replies are appreciated. Thanks

Mar 13, 2015, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Monkton

BUT can the illness possibly be the cause of not being able to control oneself ; loss of impulse control when severely ill.

Been ill for 9 years and still have a clean record. Never been arrested. Its all about how much control you want to have.

Gareth Monkton · Mar 13, 2015, 01:07 PM

Irrational Behavior :: Minnesota Law & Politics

lQUOTE=ChaoticInsanity;4335734]Been ill for 9 years and still have a clean record. Never been arrested. Its all about how much control you want to have.[/QUOTE]

Have you ever been full - blown psychotic with hallucinations ? Others who have been state that you can lose all impulse control and no sense of right or wrong.

Take a look at the above web link please

Mar 13, 2015, 07:11 PM

I'm not going to look at the link because yes I have been full blown. In fact im unmedicated because nothing has worked and I am starting last resort treament. I have been deemed treatment resistant and still maintain some sense of control over myself. SO share all the link you want. I really dont care. You will not convince me that the illness makes people dangerous.

Why did you ask this questions? For real answers? Or for reasons to throw around links to debate? Did the person who wrote that link go through anything? or are they writing about their views? And why even ask if I have been through real life psychosis? Your question was "does bipolar do this?" not everyone with bipolar experiences it the same. And technically, Im schizoaffective bipolar type. I experience psychosis more often than most bipolar 1. So yes I have been ful blown psychotic and still maintain a sense of self. Regardless of what your links say, I am ultimately in control of what i listen to as far as the psychosis. They are just shadows, they are just voices. They dont force my hand.

My thought is that you wanted real life answers. I gave you one. Why debate me?

tradika · Mar 13, 2015, 07:20 PM

People with schizophrenia only have a slightly higher chance of committing a violent crime over someone who is not schizophrenic. This has been blown up by the media. There are generally other factors involved than just psychosis when someone commits a violent offense.

~Christina · Mar 13, 2015, 07:25 PM

OP : I kinda feel like a test subject at this point....

Maybe I should sign a waiver if I am being use for a Report or Thesis of some kind ? ( insert hamster and wheel emote here)

~Christina · Mar 14, 2015, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

I think he is a narcissist who needs attention.

Agreed !

Mar 14, 2015, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Christina

OP : I kinda feel like a test subject at this point....

Maybe I should sign a waiver if I am being use for a Report or Thesis of some kind ? ( insert hamster and wheel emote here)

agreed…. big time agreed

Gareth Monkton · Mar 14, 2015, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticInsanity

I'm not going to look at the link because yes I have been full blown. In fact im unmedicated because nothing has worked and I am starting last resort treament. I have been deemed treatment resistant and still maintain some sense of control over myself. SO share all the link you want. I really dont care. You will not convince me that the illness makes people dangerous.

I am sorry, the purpose of the question was to help me to understand what happened to me during psychosis and also others ; such as the highly principled distinguished people in the article "Irrational Behaviour".

I am NOT suggesting that the illness makes people dangerous NOR does the article, which actually gives examples of distinguished law-abiding people who steal items, some for no apparent benefit and who can easily afford the items.

If anything, I had hoped that anyone who reads the article would appreciate that phases of the illness can cause changes in rational thought, lack of judgement, lack of impulse control.

Gareth Monkton · Mar 14, 2015, 02:07 AM

Extract from "Irrational Behavior" By Marya Hornbacher

In 2004, Pat Forciea went on a check-forging spree that devastated his personal and professional relationships, and he wound up with an eight-year jail sentence. He has bipolar illness. A previously law-abiding citizen and a well-known and highly respected political and business figure, Forciea committed a crime that was a classic example of uncontrolled bipolar disorder resulting in a major manic episode. Forciea was placed in the Federal Medical Center in Rochester after having another manic episode, this one behind bars; he was there for 21 months and it was, he says, “a life-changing and life-saving experience.” He is still in prison.

When someone as well-known as Forciea suddenly goes on a bipolar spree, it’s hard for the criminal law establishment not to notice and have some sympathy. But most bipolar victims can expect no such treatment: neither they nor the people who arrest them really understand what’s happening.

Gareth Monkton · Mar 14, 2015, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Monkton

Extract from "Irrational Behavior" By Marya Hornbacher

In 2004, Pat Forciea went on a check-forging spree that devastated his personal and professional relationships, and he wound up with an eight-year jail sentence. He has bipolar illness. A previously law-abiding citizen and a well-known and highly respected political and business figure, Forciea committed a crime that was a classic example of uncontrolled bipolar disorder resulting in a major manic episode. Forciea was placed in the Federal Medical Center in Rochester after having another manic episode, this one behind bars; he was there for 21 months and it was, he says, “a life-changing and life-saving experience.” He is still in prison.

When someone as well-known as Forciea suddenly goes on a bipolar spree, it’s hard for the criminal law establishment not to notice and have some sympathy. But most bipolar victims can expect no such treatment: neither they nor the people who arrest them really understand what’s happening.

Forciea is hardly the first respectable citizen to be brought down by bipolar illness. In 2005, former state senator Win Borden was convicted of failing to file his tax returns for six years. During his trial, when his lawyer saw Borden introduce himself to his son, the lawyer ordered a psychiatric evaluation: Borden is bipolar. This did not affect his sentencing, though his psychiatrist clearly stated that his offense was partially due to his disease. Although his illness was a factor in his crime, it was not a factor in his punishment.

~Christina · Mar 14, 2015, 02:23 AM

Gareth, what exactly in the world are you trying to prove? People have given you their thoughts over and over.

Do you think by posting more links and copy pasted " stories " from all over the internet that someone is going to magically change there minds and stand up and Cheer you for showing them the light?

You have been given many responses to all of your threads. There is a story about beating a dead horse , maybe you have heard of it

I am bowing out of this thread and your others. I hope eventually you get an answer you will agree or approve of.

Gareth Monkton · Mar 14, 2015, 02:56 AM

When a respected local historian and author admitted in court this that he had stolen letters written by George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, his attorney disclosed that his client suffers from bipolar disorder, a condition he claimed clouded his judgment.

Edward Renehan Jr. was the director of the Theodore Roosevelt Association in Oyster Bay, Long Island, at the time of the thefts that occurred between January 2006 and October 2007. As more Americans are diagnosed with bipolar disorder, it is becoming a more common defense to claim it impairs judgement and leads people with no prior records, like Mr. Renehan, to commit crimes.

Gareth Monkton · Mar 14, 2015, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Christina

Gareth, what exactly in the world are you trying to prove? People have given you their thoughts over and over.

Do you think by posting more links and copy pasted " stories " from all over the internet that someone is going to magically change there minds and stand up and Cheer you for showing them the light?

You have been given many responses to all of your threads. There is a story about beating a dead horse , maybe you have heard of it

I am bowing out of this thread and your others. I hope eventually you get an answer you will agree or approve of.

I am sorry. In copying extracts I was hoping to explain that the articles do not refer to murder but lesser offences -often totally unnecessary and irrational - which are uncharacteristic of the sufferer and carried out when having a loss of impulse control.

Thank you for your contribution.

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