[sonotony]

Would any of you guys ever join a 12 step program for bipolar disorder? I guess my issues with the idea is I feel that the steps imply that the disorder is my fault and that I can be healed without medication.

Do you agree with me or do you think I'm looking at this the wrong way?

For those of you not familiar with the 12 steps, here are the 12 steps for people with affective disorders:

We admitted we were powerless over our affective disorder-- that our lives had become unmanageable.

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of the God of our understanding.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings.

Made a list of all persons we have harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with the God of our understanding, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out.

Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to persons with affective disorder and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Well, what do you think?

[Clinte89]

I personally wouldn't. I tried the 12 step thing for alcohol and foud it just made me want to drink more and made me feel bad about drinking lol so I stopped it and I felt it was to religion centered for me. And a lot of people would probably disagree with me.

[canacrip]

I'm familiar with the 12 Steps. I never thought of it as implying that anything is my "fault". They treat addictions as an illness, not a character defect. What it allows me to do is take charge of my sickness, that's all. Many chronic illnesses can go into remission if treated properly. Another way to look at it is that addiction is recognized as a mental illness, so what's the difference?

[hamster-bamster]

12 step programs have never been conslusively shown to be effective. Even though they are many decades old. Beware. Better find a really good doctor and develop a really good working relationship with him or her. Do not give up your power to your doctor - rather, partner with him or her. You need your power - do not give it up to anything or anyone.

Bp is materially different from addictions. Even if the 12 step approach worked for addictions, which, again, has never been shown to be the case in the many decades of its application, this would not have meant anything for bp because bp is not an addiction.

Some of the steps you listed are blatantly inapplicable to bp. Just randomly:

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. (H-B: bp does not have to have anything to do with morality)

Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. (H-B: implies the existence of God and implies that bipolar symptomatology is a "wrong" whose "exact nature" can be discovered; a lot of assumptions here)

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. (H-B: bp is not a defect of character)

Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings. (H-B: it is not necessary to think of bp symptomatology as a list of shortcomings. Also, everyone has shortcomings and no God has ever been able to remove them all from any human being; a completely unrealistic hope here)

[treehugger727]

This is an interesting inquiry.

I do not think I would, either. Mainly because I am not a fan of asking for removal of my shortcomings ( want to strengthen myself through addressing my own shortcomings in order to improve certain aspects of my life), nor do I feel I that my character is defective. I also canNOT wrap my brain around being "powerless". I think there is always a choice and mine is that I choose to fight. For myself, my own well-being, my family, for my optimum health and for others, especially those who can't seem to muster the strength to fight for themselves.

That being said, I think that these:
"Made a list of all persons we have harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. "

Are not bad steps to consider. I think that they could all have healing benefits. I would do the three step program if these were the steps.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by canacrip

Another way to look at it is that addiction is recognized as a mental illness, so what's the difference?

If A is a subtype of B, it does not follow that every member of B is necessarily a member of A. If it did follow, it would have been the case that hearing voices is an addiction; clearly, a bad analogy.

[sonotony]

Originally Posted by canacrip

I'm familiar with the 12 Steps. I never thought of it as implying that anything is my "fault". They treat addictions as an illness, not a character defect. What it allows me to do is take charge of my sickness, that's all. Many chronic illnesses can go into remission if treated properly. Another way to look at it is that addiction is recognized as a mental illness, so what's the difference?

I see a huge difference. If someone detoxes, then goes back to the bottle (aka relapse), that is a sober, conscious choice. Mental illness or not, they have to take responsibility for that choice. AA teaches people to take responsibility for their actions, even if it is a disease. If I have a manic episode, (aka relapse), I do not have the same culpability as an alcoholic. I do not choose mania or depression of my own free will.

The 12 steps are designed to help people stop their self destructive behavior, not alter brain chemistry or cure any disease. In fact, they readily admit that they can't cure the "disease" of alcoholism, they just help people stop drinking. Carry this over to bipolar now. They can't cure it, but they can change my behavior? How can they change my brain's regulation of dopamine? What if there is nothing wrong with my behavior? My problem is with my moods and how I feel inside.

I just feel that putting a bipolar person in a 12 step program just adds to the stigma that we have done something wrong to deserve our mental illness.

On a personal note, several years ago, I was addicted to crystal meth. I woke up one day and realized that how bad it was for me and that God wanted better things for my life. I quit that day, cold turkey, and have never gone back. With God, I beat addiction with no problem. That's why 12 step programs are so great for addictions. I have prayed to the same God with the same faith that he cure my bipolar, yet he hasn't. They aren't the same thing! In AA circles, when people do not recover, it is because they are not "working the program" or because of some other personal failure. If a bipolar person does not get better, it should in no way be taken personally. The problem with applying a 12 step philosophy is that forcing you to take responsibility for your setbacks is central to the program. I have a disorder that is 0% my fault, so what good does a program like this do except make me feel guilty about it?

(Canacrip, alcoholism now is considered by many doctors to be a severe allergy. If you want more information on the effectiveness of having alcoholism go into remission, please read Dr.Kathleen DesMaissons latest works on treatment for alcoholism through diet. She has had remarkable success with helping alcoholics through diet changes.)

Sonotony, I agee with everyone that AA would probably not be appropriate for Bipolar folks to grasp as effective treatment. To begin with bipolar illness is an inflammation of a portion of the brain and also a chemical imbalance.

While Alcoholics Anonymous does consider that alcoholics must not use chemicals of any type for their well-being, bipolar patients need correction of a chemical imbalance to maintain stability.

Unfortunately, I made the mistake recently of discussing a religious subject with my psychiatrist and she was terribly bored with it. It was not until I read "The Life of Saint Francis" that I learned it is inappropriate to discuss spiritual matters in a psychiatric setting--so I owe her an apology.

Please don't misunderstand, Sonotony, I'm not saying that spiritual matters are not important in the bipolar's life (it's a personal thing); but it may not work in the life of everyone who is bipolar, just as AA treatments do not work for all alcoholic personalities.

There's another difference, too. The alcoholic frequently must become completely defeated before submitting to AA help. Bipolar patients don't necessarily experience complete defeat before seeking help to correct a chemical imbalance.

Removal of alcohol causes remission of alcoholism.

Removal of what-I-don't-know-yet causes bipolar illness to stabilize.

The most relevant thing I can think of that would engage one in AA practices is the fact that the ego must be subdued in AA treatment.

One philosopher has suggested that conversion is "a literal burning of the ego to the degree that one becomes conscious of "...a superior Guiding Force. Of course, it's always possible to relate religious conversion to a one-on-one experience, as well. (That is really your strongest point thus far in trying to work through churches to achieve your goal to create a working program for treatment of Bipolar illness.)

The ego is usually strengthened into gentleness in psychiatric treatment, which is far better, because the treatment is a one-on-one effort, and that is most effective. AA does have sponsors.

You are right that some bipolar patients use alcohol to relieve symptoms, but I'm not sure that the best treatment for them is AA. Having a personal psychiatric physician is first choice, IMHO.

I can see you're still struggling with a route to go to reach bipolar patients in your program. We've had another effort to suggest 12-step bipolar treatment as AA rules apply. That one didn't fare well, either.

Sorry to have to say "no" to your idea. Others might readily agree with your proposal.

Genetic

[faerie_moon_x]

Although I believe that the first step, which basically is admitting that there is an issue and it needs to be healed, is the most important one. Becuse, coming to acceptance with having bipolar is the first step to healing. I think there are varying cases where it is important to realize that it is an illness and you do become powerless under it at times -- but that powerlessness doesn't come from the illness itself but the lack of education and how to fight it.

Consider it like when being first diagnosed. If you were sent to the hospital for suicidal actions or in extreme mania you were not in control of yourself. You believe you are but you are not. That is full effect of the illness taking control of your mind. Also with psychosis and losing your reality checking. I was powerless against it when it happened to me, I had no idea it was happening to me, and I had no idea my mind was capable of that.

But now, I am aware, and I take steps to stay healthy and avoid that type of situation.

Otherwise, I wouldn't join a 12 step program and I agree it is not our fault that we are this way. Finding healing is personal and I think we all need to find our own road.

[Victoria'smom]

I do not care for 12-step programs. I don't find it to be an empowering message.

[Anika.]

I don't find this to be empowering either. Actually I have a huge problem with the first step. It sort of gives the impression that you have and will have no control. I don't believe that tho, insight maybe, control no.

I do think there is a place for spirituality in this, religion is a whole other thing tho depending on the person and their personal beliefs, but I don't believe just handing it over to god and see what happens is a good or effective approach. Maybe I am reading it wrong, but it sounds like it's passing a lot of the work we need to do ourselves off onto god and then he will show you the answers.

I use a lot of spirituality to heal myself, so I will be one of the last to think it isn't helpful, but I also have take responsibility for myself, my health, my actions, etc to make this work. Or it could be a lot of "just waiting". Although I am not a christian, so this would not work for me, I was raised in a very christian home, and my parents did a lot of waiting for god to show them, or tell them, but they didn't seem to do much themselves, and that's the problem I could see with this approach. I do think spirituality can help heal tho, I really agree with that.

[BipolaRNurse]

I did go to AA when I first started out in sobriety almost 21 years ago and found it very helpful, but I don't believe it's suitable for bipolar people. After all, we don't choose to continue being bipolar and behaving like BPers do sometimes.......it's not like addiction, where you have a choice as to whether or not you'll keep drinking or using.

Are we powerless over BP? I don't believe we have even the slightest pretense of control over whether we have it or not, but we are far from powerless when it comes to what to do with it. We can choose to pretend it doesn't exist. We can self-medicate with alcohol, drugs, food. We can let the disorder take over our lives. Or, we can actively work to manage it with medications, self-awareness, therapy, and healthful habits.

Just my two cents' worth on a gorgeous fall afternoon.

[canacrip]

Except that each illness has its' own symptoms.

Originally Posted by sonotony

...I just feel that putting a bipolar person in a 12 step program just adds to the stigma that we have done something wrong to deserve our mental illness...
In AA circles, when people do not recover, it is because they are not "working the program" or because of some other personal failure. If a bipolar person does not get better, it should in no way be taken personally. The problem with applying a 12 step philosophy is that forcing you to take responsibility for your setbacks is central to the program. I have a disorder that is 0% my fault, so what good does a program like this do except make me feel guilty about it?

Exactly. Are people who have inherited other afflictions supposed to feel guilty about it? People would be outraged at such an idea, yet somehow, because our affliction is mental, we should??? How's that work?!
Besides, how many of us have beat ourselves up for years and years trying to overcome these "character defects" and failing? Self-flagellating, thinking we just must not be "trying hard enough". When others keep telling us that that's what our "problem" is (and if we don't know it isn't) there's nothing BUT feeling guilty for our "failings" and "shortcomings"! So yeah, think we've got that one covered in spades all by ourselves. There's certainly no need for additional "help" in the guilt department(!)

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

(H-B: bp does not have to have anything to do with morality)...
(H-B: ...implies that bipolar symptomatology is a "wrong" whose "exact nature" can be discovered; a lot of assumptions here)...
(H-B: bp is not a defect of character)...
(H-B: it is not necessary to think of bp symptomatology as a list of shortcomings.

Can I hear an amen?

[gonetomaui]

This is the best feed I have read on this. Thanks.

I just posted this question regarding AA and BP on a substance abuse question someone else had posted.

I wrote : Basically, now that I'm medicated(very recent) do I need to attend AA? I don't have the craving for alcohol now.

I don't want to label myself 'powerless' alcoholic' or red from a book written in 1932. I'm aware I can't drink alcohol or self-mediacte and need to be diligent. I struggled with self-medicating my whole life. Going to AA once for 8 years, not fully convinced that was the whole issue, still showing signs of mania/depression even sober/exercising/eating right/sun etc.., though no one got the diagnosis right till a decade later.

My solution would be a SMARTrecovery.org type of recovery, which is self-management type group. They teach CBT skills and have face to face meetings and online meetings world wide.

I will also keep the pysch Dr that I go to for meds and my therapist. Start exercising again. Live a balanced life. Keep it all simple and strive for stability whoa stability what a concept lol

Thanks for all the above posts. Thanks!

[Slowbrains]

I don't agree. There is no higher power to "restore my sanity".

I have to take care of it myself as well as i can and live with it.

Originally Posted by Slowbrains

I don't agree. There is no higher power to "restore my sanity".

I have to take care of it myself as well as i can and live with it.

If there is a higher power, then presumably he/she/it granted me my insanity and seems reluctant to take it back.

[RisuNeko]

I didn't know what the steps were until they were listed in this thread. But now that I know what they are I really don't want to enter a 12 step program even though I have addiction problems. I'd rather go a route that has nothing to do with a higher power and has more to do with coming up with a personal plan of action, learning new coping skills and possibly working ina group setting to make myself accountable to other people who understand.

[YMIHere]

Originally Posted by sonotony

Would any of you guys ever join a 12 step program for bipolar disorder? I guess my issues with the idea is I feel that the steps imply that the disorder is my fault and that I can be healed without medication.

Do you agree with me or do you think I'm looking at this the wrong way?

For those of you not familiar with the 12 steps, here are the 12 steps for people with affective disorders:

We admitted we were powerless over our affective disorder-- that our lives had become unmanageable.

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of the God of our understanding.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings.

Made a list of all persons we have harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with the God of our understanding, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out.

Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to persons with affective disorder and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Well, what do you think?

There is a 12 Step Program called "Emotions Anonymous." We admitted we were powerless over our emotions and that our lives had become unmanageable. This program helped me IMMENSELY when I was back in NY. In NY we had many chapters, here in FL not so many and so I haven't gone.

Making that admission was not difficult for me. At that time I was not properly diagnosed, but the counselor I would see with my husband before I left - her parting words to me were that I need to learn to think, not act and that I should check out an EA meeting.

We had a lot of crossover. The logic being that no matter what your addiction, a lot of it had to do with an inability to manage emotions.

If there were more meetings in my area I would go back. It was helpful. I'm still friends with my sponsor and God Love that woman she has been a rock to me so many times. It is more difficult for me to "communicate with my Higher Power" when she tells me to do that. Very hard.