[Icare dixit]

Not really related to BP, though it can (now and more so eventually) influence healthcare.

Do you think the EU is generally a good thing? Why? Of course, the EU would be more like the US, a federation, all European states becoming more equal, the same.

Do you think people like Obama should try to influence the attitudes about the EU in European countries, when on "official business" or at all? Do you think "outside influence" (like also Ukraine tried to have) will have a positive effect on the attitude of most people in Europe?

[venusss]

EU is a good thing. We had some sort of peace thanks to various international structures on the continent.

Though lately I am just fcking worried. I don't want to even get into that, because most people here would not get it anyways.

(I come from the V4, "New Europe", fyi).

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by venusss

EU is a good thing. We had some sort of peace thanks to various international structures on the continent.

Though lately I am just fcking worried. I don't want to even get into that, because most people here would not get it anyways.

(I come from the V4, "New Europe", fyi).

What makes you think that's true, that the EU brought/maintained peace? Is it trade?

To give a counterargument, if it is at all an argument, the trade relations with Hitler's Germany were very good. So much so, that they closed there eyes for what was happening and were very late to interfere. Hitler's rise to power was because he promised and kept his promise to not honour the treaty that forced Germany to pay enormous amounts of money to the "victors" of the First World War, bankrupting the country, much like is happening with Greece now (luckily there are a few and primarily leftist parties opposing the EU, but maybe only a similar extreme right-wing will follow through, if they find a "strong leader").

I think the differences and relative independence of the countries in Europe is one of it's strengths. Like a big laboratory of experiments with democracy and laws. Treaties between countries have always existed, there is no need for a new kind of federalist government, civil service, army or parliament. There are great things in Europe that just aren't possible if all countries do the exact same thing. It's like stalling evolution (and regression since services offered to only a few will be accessible to all and thereby overtaxed: it's just sabotaging the welfare state, very deliberately). It's neoliberal to the core: freedom to do exactly as told.

But maybe it shouldn't be discussed too much here, indeed. It was just that Obama got publicly involved, so maybe some from the US have an opinion on the matter.

[Icare dixit]

Basically, trade, (foreign) investment and mass migration create the conditions for war.

The First World War, the colonial wars, the American civil war, the Iraq wars, wars in Afghanistan, war in Libya, just to name a few. Some (mostly others) indirectly by support of dictatorships.

[Icare dixit]

Just one more thing, about the V4 countries: like many smaller—less independent/autonomous—economies, I am afraid these countries, like for example, Ireland has been, will be squeezed dry and discarded, all possibilities of building a more independent, healthy economy made impossible by foreign investment and the impossibility to have an independent fiscal policy to make non-foreign investments.

It's just like (not necessarily exactly like, but essentially like) neocolonialism. Same with the NAFTA in North America, destroying any hope of a healthy economy in countries like Mexico. Even Canada would be better off without it.