[Icare dixit]

First off, personality is a complicated thing, being secondary to your nature (natural tendencies).

Especially when it comes to personality, it is widely recognised that a categorical approach to personality is problematic. That it is easier for clinicians to work with is, as I see it, questionable.

It is very well possible that the DSM-6 will do away with the ten personality disorder categories and the clustering of these.

Many of us with BP might have problems which transcend all clusters. Some clusters may be more primary than others (some problems being based on others). Anxiety disorders, in turn, may be secondary to personality problems.

Who of you has many or all of the borderline personality traits?

Do you think it is helpful to make a distinction between personality problems and BP?

Do you have BP-1 or BP-2, or some other related, psychotic disorder? Do you have any anxiety disorders or anxiety-related personality disorder (e.g. OCD or avoidant/dependent personality)?

Do you think your borderline personality does best describe your most basic personality problems or is another personality disorder the cause of your borderline traits, as far as you can tell?

Do you use anything from (any type of) psychotherapy to deal with your problems?

When I don't have any "purely" BP problems, mania or depression, when stable, I tend to "lose control without really losing control" mostly sabotaging my functioning directly, or indirectly by hurting or endangering others or sabotaging a relationship.

Currently I do it, for example, by not calling my psychiatrist for a script for my antipsychotic. I know this is not purely avoidance. I am more often late for meetings/appointments. This is not social anxiety (I have more of narcissistic personality, which, being clustered with BPD, is not surprising).

I only do thinks impulsively and have great difficulty with routine (not the type that eventually causes mild depression through understimulation, but anxiety) and (subconsciously at the time) sabotage it. That's why I run my own company providing one service to many, so as to have much freedom to switch between different activities.

Basically, when there is no "natural" personal disaster, and because of it, a lack of felt purpose or challenge, direction, a problem to fix, "boredom" anxiety, I create it myself.

I think a borderline personality in itself is healthy, makes psychotic problems less severe, but not a "disordered" type where it is not consciously used and controlled, leading to "loss of control".

As many/some of you may know by now, I have been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder, BP type.

Hope to hear your stories!

The DSM seems to come out with a new version every 7 years. Additionally, the people who wrote the DSM-5 will likely come out with a DSM-5-TR version before they come out with a DSM-6. So, it'll probably be at least 14 years before we even see a DSM-6.

Out of curiosity, though, why do you think DSM-6 will do away with personality disorders?

Anyway, I'm fairly certain I meet the criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder, but it's a tricky diagnosis when you're BP and not stable. (I'm rapid cycling.) I've thought about bringing it up to my therapist, but I don't feel I need to at this time.

I'm surprised I wasn't diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder, though... because that's totally independent from mood instability (in my opinion). I had a neuropsychological evaluation done in the past and the psychologist said (in her words) that I have "an avoidant personality", yet never diagnosed me with Avoidant Personality Disorder. She even went on to say that I had "DSM-oriented scale elevations on the Depressive Problems, Borderline Personality Problems, Avoidant Personality Problems, Antisocial Personality Problems, and Attention Deficit/Hperactivity problems scales which were all in the Clinical Range (>97th %tile)". Maybe that's why I wasn't diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder either. Maybe she didn't believe me? Nooooo idea.

So, nope... I haven't gotten any treatment for personality problems.

I do have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and OCD (although I think the OCD is quite minimal, as I'm mostly concerned with contamination).

[zijax]

Im just another human being struggling along like everybody else. Im sick of diagnosis and being put into a 'cluster.' I just want to go live my life. I think mental illness is primarily a spiritual disease anyway. Good luck everybody

[Icare dixit]

Just quickly about the DSM (of course what you say about the very long revision process is completely true): it's not likely they will do away with personality disorders as such, exactly, but the model used to describe them, probably becoming more dimensional and less/not categorical. It is likely or not unlikely, because there is a Section III in the DSM where tentative proposals by the different working groups are described, for (possible) future use, and a more dimensional approach to personality problems is in there. The only reason it was not in the "normative" part of the DSM is that clinicians thought that it was difficult to work with (which could just be clinging to what you know). I personally think it can be very helpful in clinical practice, where now it is sometimes rather/almost meaningless which exact personality disorder is diagnosed for psychotherapy.

I will reply to the rest later: just don't have the time to read and formulate a response now.

[Bobbyj]

I don't know much about personality disorders other than the basics, but just wanted to say i heavily relate with that feeling of giving yourself problems in order to have a challenge to overcome. In school I would not do homework or study and still did decent with the mindset of "well i did this well without trying, imagine if i did try", later on i've had that mindset while using drugs and in all sorts of situations. My therapist said it comes from a fear of failure which i can definitely agree with. I can just go oh well if i failed that test i wasn't even at class half the time! Rather than putting in effort and still failing which would hurt my ego.

Anyway Just wanted to comment, thought that was interesting. Not sure where that trait would fall under.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by Bobbyj

I don't know much about personality disorders other than the basics, but just wanted to say i heavily relate with that feeling of giving yourself problems in order to have a challenge to overcome. In school I would not do homework or study and still did decent with the mindset of "well i did this well without trying, imagine if i did try", later on i've had that mindset while using drugs and in all sorts of situations. My therapist said it comes from a fear of failure which i can definitely agree with. I can just go oh well if i failed that test i wasn't even at class half the time! Rather than putting in effort and still failing which would hurt my ego.

Anyway Just wanted to comment, thought that was interesting. Not sure where that trait would fall under.

Just wanted to say I so very much relate to your story.

You could, depending on the exact cause which might still be largely subconscious, probably/possibly categorise that as a borderline personality trait. But again, it depends on the exact "reasons" behind your behaviour. Having BP just makes it more likely the cause might be found by analysing it from that categorical perspective.

It may be best described as fear for not knowing the reason for failure. That hurts more: it is something internal/essential/emotional and too hard to express or correctly rationalise/analyse. But both can be done. Again, the actual reasons could be different in your case. But just fear for failure may lead to failure, but just due to anxiety, not "deliberate" actions.

[Icare dixit]

Just wanted to say that I love you all, but especially those with borderline personality traits (sorry for some favouritism).

I wouldn't have the good friendships I have without people like us: maybe paradoxically, relationships where two people (or more, in some dynamic) have borderline personalities can be indestructible. True, emotionally deep, strong, (paradoxically) reliable friendships.



Edit:
Shows us how toxicity can literally and interpersonally, be advantageous.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by bluebicycle

The DSM seems to come out with a new version every 7 years. Additionally, the people who wrote the DSM-5 will likely come out with a DSM-5-TR version before they come out with a DSM-6. So, it'll probably be at least 14 years before we even see a DSM-6.

Out of curiosity, though, why do you think DSM-6 will do away with personality disorders?

Anyway, I'm fairly certain I meet the criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder, but it's a tricky diagnosis when you're BP and not stable. (I'm rapid cycling.) I've thought about bringing it up to my therapist, but I don't feel I need to at this time.

I'm surprised I wasn't diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder, though... because that's totally independent from mood instability (in my opinion). I had a neuropsychological evaluation done in the past and the psychologist said (in her words) that I have "an avoidant personality", yet never diagnosed me with Avoidant Personality Disorder. She even went on to say that I had "DSM-oriented scale elevations on the Depressive Problems, Borderline Personality Problems, Avoidant Personality Problems, Antisocial Personality Problems, and Attention Deficit/Hperactivity problems scales which were all in the Clinical Range (>97th %tile)". Maybe that's why I wasn't diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder either. Maybe she didn't believe me? Nooooo idea.

So, nope... I haven't gotten any treatment for personality problems.

I do have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and OCD (although I think the OCD is quite minimal, as I'm mostly concerned with contamination).

All those problems (except OCD which could be somewhat related, "purely" neurotic or caused by hallucinations/delusions) could have a common source. I'd say, if they indeed have a common source, borderline personality problems would be primary and the rest secondary to it (though the "real" common source may be non-personality, typical (mild) psychotic problems, or actually what underlies even those). But as far as psychotherapy is concerned it might therefore be best to start looking at it from a borderline personality, more categorical, perspective.

I'd bring it up, if you think it could be. Just to analyse and maybe falsify.

Edit:
Just something to lessen possible confusion: all things you (and your therapist) mentioned are all clustered together. So it is not some intangible/complicated mess, or something. You might be better of with a more specialised therapist, but I wouldn't know, also because I "don't do (talk) therapy".

If anyone knows of something that is really helpful, though, not just strictly psychotherapy, please share! It's just that I am too mouthy and emotional for regular psychotherapy. I mean: the problem is not being able to correctly rationalise/explain why I do what I do, so how will talking help? It doesn't.

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

All those problems (except OCD which could be somewhat related, "purely" neurotic or caused by hallucinations/delusions) could have a common source. I'd say, if they indeed have a common source, borderline personality problems would be primary and the rest secondary to it (though the "real" common source may be non-personality, typical (mild) psychotic problems, or actually what underlies even those). But as far as psychotherapy is concerned it might therefore be best to start looking at it from a borderline personality, more categorical, perspective.

I'd bring it up, if you think it could be. Just to analyse and maybe falsify.

Edit:
Just something to lessen possible confusion: all things you (and your therapist) mentioned are all clustered together. So it is not some intangible/complicated mess, or something. You might be better of with a more specialised therapist, but I wouldn't know, also because I "don't do (talk) therapy".

If anyone knows of something that is really helpful, though, not just strictly psychotherapy, please share! It's just that I am too mouthy and emotional for regular psychotherapy. I mean: the problem is not being able to correctly rationalise/explain why I do what I do, so how will talking help? It doesn't.

It's possible these personality disorders all have a common source. After all, they're personality problems, so they revolve around the same thing. As for what could be the cause, I haven't a clue. There are probably environmental factors involved, like abuse.

"Abuse" could be anything... like child abuse, physical abuse, friendship abuse, relationship abuse... Abuse is linked to a lot of things.

I've suffered from serious friendship abuse when I was younger, and it's definitely had an impact on who I am today.

And yeah, I want to talk to a more specialized person.

I did think it was interesting that I had high antisocial traits. It's probably because of the way I answered questions on the personality test. There were questions like, "Would you steal if you knew you wouldn't get caught?" I was like "hell yeah! If I could steal $1 million without getting caught, I would do it in a heartbeat. But I would never intentionally steal from a little old lady or anything." Then there were questions like, "Have you ever stolen anything?" I was like, "Yeah, music and other stuff from the internets" (Who hasn't done that?! ha) So, I think the test was designed poorly, and maybe I don't really have certain personality issues.

[pirilin]

Out of my league.

[MusicLover82]

You mentioned OCD, which is the only reason I'm commenting. I have not been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, but rather with Bipolar 2 and OCD (with some GAD as well, although it can be argued that it is all related to the same kind of chemical imbalance). My p-doc mostly treats the bipolar and that in turn helps everything else (the anxiety, obsessive thoughts, worries, and anxiety). My psychologist has helped me so much by discouraging me from acting on my compulsions. That behavior therapy has helped me immensely. First of all, I am not wearing my emotions on my sleeve and driving everyone I know crazy or risk looking unprofessional at work (my compulsion is to seek reassurance from others). I also have learned that I can reassure and comfort myself. I have also learned that the obsessive thoughts and intense worries DO pass, rather quickly in some cases, if you don't feed them with compulsive actions. I often do have to take Xanax to help the anxiety, but not to excess. My p-doc prescribed me one 0.5 mg Xanax per day as needed. I also have been taking a supplement, NAC (amino acid) that helps the obsessive thoughts a lot. I would love to get to the point where they go away completely, but my p-doc doesn't prescribe SSRI drugs for me very often, because I tend to get hypomanic on them. The OCD seems to flare up a few days a month, so perhaps it is also hormone-related. Maybe one day I will get my hormones checked out.

Originally Posted by MusicLover82

I have not been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, but rather with Bipolar 2 and OCD (with some GAD as well, although it can be argued that it is all related to the same kind of chemical imbalance).

I've always wondered that too. It's interesting that so many of us BP people have anxiety -- well, "GAD" to be specific. Though, it's not a surprise. Anxiety can be a symptom of mania as well as depression. So, I would definitely say that anxiety for some of us is related to the same chemical imbalance that causes BP.

I know I have GAD, though, because my anxiety exists even when I'm stable. Otherwise, I would probably say my anxiety is "due to BP".

[Icare dixit]

But would you say your separate GAD diagnosis is helpful? GAD could in some cases just be a "anxiety, unknown cause and pervasive", not being very meaningful. Like unspecified mental disorder (to give an extreme example).

I was saying they are clustered just to say how there is a rather clear and not some murky, inconsistent result. Internal consistency is probably quite high, so it is unlikely that answering two questions will have such a big influence (but they might have too much still).

As for anxiety, it seems to be the/a major cause of pathogenesis, you actually showing/developing BP, given some vulnerability. It might be that in some cases anxiety alone (so not gene mutations) results in biochemical changes, creating that vulnerability itself as well.

In many ways, the (physical) ability for mania is used as a "automatic"/autonomous defence mechanism (not the, at least typical, personality type) against anxiety.