[zijax]

Drinking and drugs alters a persons brain chemistry. A pdoc told me that I had to be clean and sober 6 months before he knew if I had a mental illness or was suffering from the disease of addiction. When I'm drinking and even when sober during a drinking period I can 'look' bipolar. But don't diagnose me while I'm running and gunning bc it will be a false positive.

I went to Hazelden for rehab down in Naples. I learned about PAWS, post acute withdrawal syndrome. From the period of detox to about 2 year clean the recovering person experiences; extreme mood instability, low enthusiasm, anxiety, irritability, variable energy, variable concentration, mood swings and tiredness. This is your brain chemicals adjusting to reach a new equilibrium. Not a good idea to get a diagnosis for bipolar if you drink, do drugs or are just getting clean

[Icare dixit]

Yes, possibly, but BP is, in a way, just being addictive and addicted. We need to be stimulated, more so than others. Our brain is like a bootstrap for addictive behaviour, making our brains/ourselves more addictive and addicted.

The generality or breadth of your addictiveness may give an indication by which to distinguish "true" BP from substance-induced BP. Your history, before any addiction, is also important.

I'd at least diagnose someone with substance-induced BP and start treatment.

My therapist specializes in addiction treatment. He showed me how your mood alternates between depression and "euphoria" if you do drugs... It has more of a predictable pattern when compared to bipolar disorder.

I think the conversation came up when I told him I was thinking about doing a certain drug because none of my psychopharmacological treatments were working. (I don't even remember what I was talking about. lol.)

I've never done drugs, though.

[zijax]

You know thanks guys, I'm just trying to get out of being bipolar again. I've been dxed sober by six different pdocs but I continually look for some loophole that says I don't have bipolar. Why can't I just accept that I'm a ****ing bpd, bipolar alcoholic, and yes, was dxed years ago with bpd but never accepted it either. I hate myself dawgonnit

[manicdiamond]

Having bipolar is a lot to accept. Don't hate yourself. Love yourself for who you are. You are more than your labels! *hugs*

Originally Posted by zijax

You know thanks guys, I'm just trying to get out of being bipolar again. I've been dxed sober by six different pdocs but I continually look for some loophole that says I don't have bipolar. Why can't I just accept that I'm a ****ing bpd, bipolar alcoholic, and yes, was dxed years ago with bpd but never accepted it either. I hate myself dawgonnit

It's okay. I often find bizarre reasons to convince myself I'm not bipolar. I think it's a common thing with BP people.

The problem with mental illness is that diagnoses are subjective, not objective. When you go to the doctor and you get diagnosed with high cholesterol, you don't debate it because you have proof. You took a blood test. With mental illness, there isn't any kind of test. There's no "proof"

[Bobbyj]

I've had this issue i've been on and off drugs for 6-7years now.... I recently got clean, about 3 weeks ago now. Well my doctor diagnosed me with bipolar, which i can believe, either that or bpd, or both. But i never felt TOO bad or out control while sober and clean. So i decided not to take meds, and my therapist agrees until i've had a decent amount of clean time. I do feel manic and depressed at times, but nothing that is too much to handle. My really bad moments are always while under the influence. So for now i'm just going to focus on sobriety and wait to see how i am. I did find i had some high energy and confidence yesterday and worked out for about 3-4 hours and was also quick to snap at people. I never really have the sleep issues that seem to come with mania though, i like my 8 hours when possible. I also never seem too depressed to exercise, if anything it motivates me in a way.

[raspberrytorte]

This is really interesting.

I abused alcohol for years, stopped when I got an OWI and had to do rehab, afterwards was depressed and anxious, went to a mental health provider, put on sertraline, went nuts, and was diagnosed bipolar.

So maybe it was the alcohol all along?

Just interesting.

(Excuse to get out of this situation too. Lol!)

[Icare dixit]

Symptoms are the proof.

[Icare dixit]

BP is (for clinical purposes) a syndrome. So "duck-typed".

It being the alcohol all along doesn't really matter (it does very much for scientific research, so use of the substance-induced bipolar diagnosis is probably best, but maybe not for acceptance). It is however unlikely to be a sufficient factor/cause. Likewise, it being largely due to anxiety doesn't make it more or less BP.

I very much believe BPD to be ameliorating/reducing factor in BP, so that BP may be completely neutralised by BPD.

So BPD, anxiety, substance-use and the BP syndrome give a better measure of the underlying problems characterised by BP.

Edit:
There is probably one underlying problem, with a certain strength, but with one or more genetic and/or biochemical problems/differences underlying it, resulting in different strengths, as well as personality reducing the problem and/or making it worse and substance-use and anxiety making that problem worse. It is possible, not unlikely, the shared cause is cell damage and reduction.

Anxiety is more complex, there being more primary and secondary anxiety and a distinction should be made.

[Misssy2]

Originally Posted by zijax

You know thanks guys, I'm just trying to get out of being bipolar again. I've been dxed sober by six different pdocs but I continually look for some loophole that says I don't have bipolar. Why can't I just accept that I'm a ****ing bpd, bipolar alcoholic, and yes, was dxed years ago with bpd but never accepted it either. I hate myself dawgonnit

No I think you have a good point in the fact that alcohol and drugs alter brain and it does take the amount of time to get back to a base line for anyone to really know what is going on. I have been told the same thing..and it makes sense...but for me...I've been drinking since I was 17....so THIS is my behavior....if my brain changed due to alcohol....the alcohol made me bipolar?

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by Misssy2

No I think you have a good point in the fact that alcohol and drugs alter brain and it does take the amount of time to get back to a base line for anyone to really know what is going on. I have been told the same thing..and it makes sense...but for me...I've been drinking since I was 17....so THIS is my behavior....if my brain changed due to alcohol....the alcohol made me bipolar?

Maybe more like bipolaresque addictiveness together with substance-abuse or just the addictiveness to have, see/hear/feel and do what you don't, impulsively? So, simply put, the other way round, or call it BP light.

Basically, naturally, intuitively, we make things more extreme, including our BP. Reasonably, many try to be boring. We need to find the right balance or we keep going from one extreme to the other: intuition/emotion and reason.

I'm glad things worked out for you and you are recovering and don't have bipolar anymore, since quitting drinking.

I dont agree with not seeking help for bipolar if you drink, but it's a long story as to why and way above my pay grade so I will just say each case is unique. If you think you have bipolar and you drink, don't assume the latter cancels out the former as a contributor. Not drinking is just a good idea for anybody. It can't be looked at as a bad thing to stop, but some people will get sicker if they rely on AA alone.

[Bobbyj]

I think some people are over-analyzing this a lotttt lol, it's pretty much common sense.... IDC how normal you are, if you're addicted to a substance like alcohol, opiates, benzos, etc. you are going to have extreme mood swings, depression, euphoria when coming clean, and all that. I don't see how it is really possible to make a diagnosis before someone gets clean, unless they had clear signs of BP before ever using. I think substance induced bp is fair to say for a lot of people, but really what can that even solve? I can't imagine that taking meds on top of street drugs or alcohol would be a good idea. Therapy/rehab would seem to be the best bet.

Obviously if someone is addicted to all those substances, chances are something is going on. You need to be clean to know that you don't have an active addiction, but to rule out mental illness wouldn't be wise. I have lots of evidences to support my over-thinking, but it's above my pay grade and doubt anyone would listen.

If you think you have bipolar and still drink, self medicate, please seek help. I might drink when people piss me off, my bipolar doesn't suddenly disappear when I drink. If anything, it just intensifies an already intense situation. Professionals should always be involved if mental illness is suspected, ESPECIALLY if drinking is involved. Just remember, some professionals suck. I know a girl from high school who got her license. Oh freakin nelly.

Best advise ever: stop drinking and drugging. Eat right and exercise at least an hour a day. If you are suddenly better, you should put up billboards cause you're awesome and others probably want to know.

[Treyfrancis21]

9 Substance-Induced Disorders - Substance Abuse Treatment for Persons With Co-Occurring Disorders - NCBI Bookshelf

This article covers it quite nicely.

I can't access the article but I'm sure I know the gist. I really want to elaborate and tell another side. I do feel it's important for lurkers to hear it. It could pertain to them and potentially help them seek treatment early. Always be honest with how much you drink. That was one of the first things I always talked with pdoc about.

I'm not feeling able to elaborate right now. Maybe later. There are many sides to things and even well meaning articles can miss somethings I fear.

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

I very much believe BPD to be ameliorating/reducing factor in BP, so that BP may be completely neutralised by BPD.

Can you source or better explain this so it's not complete nonsense?

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by Lefty the Salesman

Can you source or better explain this so it's not complete nonsense?

This is a belief and a logical conclusion/inference based on mostly beliefs, a theory that fits basic assumptions, and difficult to find strong supporting evidence for.

Basically, I believe that integrating BP into your personality is healthier than not doing that. I see BP as a form of disintegration, dissociation. The allowances afforded by a borderline personality create greater flexibility, so that your BP is more controlled and reintegrating instead of disintegrating. You break up into pieces less. I think you should embrace such personality (and change/improve it).

To me, it's rather obvious. People don't just develop a personality that is disadvantageous. That it helps in some way is very likely. That is exists seemingly on it's own, seemingly having only disadvantages makes no sense to me. It makes it likely there is a problem it neutralises so as to become subclinical BP (or subclinical unipolar depression).

Edit:
The dissociation would be one of the rational and emotional/intuitive self: an inability to (correctly) rationalise one's emotions. It could lead to (more) extreme disintegration: depression and mania.