[*Laurie*]

How do you perceive passion as being different from mania?

[piggy momma]

If I had to guess, I’d say passion endures. Mania is fleeting.

I’ve been passionate about pigs for many, many years. That passion doesn’t wane. When I’m
Manic, when every my momentary passion is, it deflates like a balloon within hours, days, or rarely weeks.

[~Christina]

My passion is something long term

My hypos last a couple days then I’m heard towards hell. So there’s nothing good here/there.

I’m passionate about helping others always have been.

[Pookyl]

I can be passionate about something for a long time regardless of my mood.
I’ve been manic for as long as 4 months and the following crash was both awful and scary.

[*Laurie*]

I appreciate the replies very much.

I'm asking this question because I am, have always been, an intensely passionate person. I mean, intense, electric, extremely emotional, hyper-sensitive, I feel anything and everything very deeply. I'm highly empathetic. My therapist keeps encouraging me to accept my "passionate nature", that it's such an asset, etc.

Okay. Sooo, what I don't understand is, why am I being diagnosed as having BD and taking 5 meds? My "passionate nature" doesn't come and go; it's the way I am all of the time, and the way I have been from childhood. My emotional intensity does get really extreme, much of the time. For example, I'll be watching a movie and cannot stop crying. Or I read a quote from a great novel and I cry and can't stop for a while. Or I get tremendously angry at some injustice I witness.

I've been confused about this for years, and I remain confused. (I do not, btw, have BPD.) I've asked my pdoc and she's said stuff such as, "When you first came to see me you spoke of having music playing in your mind and it wouldn't stop". Well, okay. But ask any musician and most of them will say they have music playing in their mind that doesn't stop. If I was a famous musician, would a pdoc want to medicate me for hearing music in my mind?

I appreciate any insight into my original question. I will speak with my therapist about this, but I'd like to go into my appointment with info from other people who are dx'ed with BD.

[*Laurie*]

Okay, something I'm seeing that's common with at least a couple of you is that it's the crash that defines BD. If anyone wants to explain more about that, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

I agree that passion lasts longer than mania. However, differentiating between passion and mania can be difficult when you're first becoming passionate about something. In that case, I'd say that it depends on the intensity of your "passion." Are you suddenly going to sell your house and live off the streets so that you can devote your entire life toward saving all the homeless kitties? That's pretty intense. Or, are you going to keep your house and devote some of your time toward saving homeless kitties?

Originally Posted by *Laurie*

I appreciate the replies very much.

I'm asking this question because I am, have always been, an intensely passionate person. I mean, intense, electric, extremely emotional, hyper-sensitive, I feel anything and everything very deeply. I'm highly empathetic. My therapist keeps encouraging me to accept my "passionate nature", that it's such an asset, etc.

Okay. Sooo, what I don't understand is, why am I being diagnosed as having BD and taking 5 meds? My "passionate nature" doesn't come and go; it's the way I am all of the time, and the way I have been from childhood. My emotional intensity does get really extreme, much of the time. For example, I'll be watching a movie and cannot stop crying. Or I read a quote from a great novel and I cry and can't stop for a while. Or I get tremendously angry at some injustice I witness.

I've been confused about this for years, and I remain confused. (I do not, btw, have BPD.) I've asked my pdoc and she's said stuff such as, "When you first came to see me you spoke of having music playing in your mind and it wouldn't stop". Well, okay. But ask any musician and most of them will say they have music playing in their mind that doesn't stop. If I was a famous musician, would a pdoc want to medicate me for hearing music in my mind?

I appreciate any insight into my original question. I will speak with my therapist about this, but I'd like to go into my appointment with info from other people who are dx'ed with BD.

But to answer your reply:
Do you like your passionate nature? I know your therapist wants you to accept/embrace it, but I'm just curious about your POV.

I also wonder: did your doctors diagnose you with bipolar because of your passionate ways, or at least partially because? If so, I can see why you are so cautious about accepting the Dx, and I don't blame you for feeling that way. Such a reason would make me question the Dx, too.

As far as passion itself goes, do you hav PTSD? I feel that hyperarousal can (but not always) affect passion. I do not have medical proof for this concept and I do not have medical research papers to back it up, so this "concept" is simply my opinion. I just feel that PTSD/hyperarousal can make someone more sensitive to things, and that sensitivity can translate to passion. But again, IDK if you have PTSD. It's just something I've noticed, especially in my Iraq war vet cousin. I have hyperarousal, too, but not PSTD. (I'm not sure how that works out, but psychologists have said it relates to OCD and anxiety for me.) Things just make me more scared than usual because I'm afraid of past experiences recurring. Same with sadness. So I have heightened emotions/passion.

I also think of sensitivity/passion in terms of BP too. I feel that people with BP *typically* have more empathy/passion than the average person because we experience all sorts of emotions and mood states. And just because we have extreme mood states that last seemingly ages doesn't mean we don't have mood lability involved with BP, too. I'm not saying mood lability should be criteria for BP, but I've seen research papers suggesting that BP people are more prone to minor, quick mood shifts than the average person. And this would make sense because a lot of us have severe anger and concentration issues that exist independent of mood states and independent of medication (i.e., we have concentration issues even without Lamictal, Tegretol, AP's, etc). So I think mood lability and passion are linked, too. Basically, when we have a "mini mood swing," we become more passionate, and "mini mood swings" can (in my personal opinion) be triggered by an event like watching a sad movie. So I think sometimes that "passion" is just a mini triggered mood swing. But again, just my personal (non-professional) opinion.

But when it comes to music? I'm sort of the same way. I get songs "stuck in my head," sometimes stupid ones like Rebecca Black's Friday (LOL). Lots of people get songs "stuck in their head too." It's a completely normal thing IMO. At the same time, I've physically heard music playing in my ears when the music didn't exist. My pdoc and therapist say that's a hallucination, because it's like hearing music through headphones or at a concert when you're doing neither. It's basically no different than voices for me.

I do think some people get voices in their head, though. Like, I think they have voices talking to them but they don't physically hear the voices in their ears like I do. So it IS possible that your non-stop music IS a hallucination even if you're not physically hearing it. I do think that non-hallucinatory music can be stopped, though, whereas hallucinatory music can't. Plus, in my experience, my "physical" voices and music do not last very long. If I listen to music or YouTube to drown out the voices/music, they both eventually go away and never come back for the rest of the day. Even if I DON'T listen to music/YouTube/whatever, the voices/music goes away fairly quickly and never comes back for the rest of the day. Plus, the voices/music are different every time for me. It's never the same song. Some people who have music "stuck" in their head hear the same song for a long time, and that same song lasts in their head for days, non-stop. I don't have that if it's a hallucination. I've never had a single hallucination (voices, music, phones ringing, visuals, psychic visions, warps to other galaxies, etc) last very long. And my therapist has said it's "completely normal" for hallucinations to last a brief period of time before going away. (I'm talking about maybe 2 minutes up to an hour.)

Originally Posted by *Laurie*

Okay, something I'm seeing that's common with at least a couple of you is that it's the crash that defines BD. If anyone wants to explain more about that, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Not everyone has a crash.

I used to get crashes every single time. However, since starting my recent med cocktail, I just get manic/hypomanic and never crash into a depression or a mixed state. I have no idea how my meds stop my depression/mixed states, but they do. This is a very, VERY new thing for me. So I really do think it's med dependent -- although, I think some people naturally do not crash very often. (Crashes are not required for a BP diagnosis, btw.)

I also regularly get hallucinations and delusions, so in all fairness, it can be difficult for me to determine if I'm in an episode or not. (I have NO idea why I am not Dx'ed with Schizoaffective, but psychologists insist that the hallucinations are ONLY caused by the BP.) I also don't have many sleep issues when manic/hypomanic. I do wake up quite often in the middle of the night when in an upswing and I tend to do things for about a half an hour to a few hours before returning to sleep. However, I ultimately get like 6-7 hrs of sleep. (Maybe it has to do with med sedation? No idea. I do normally get like 10+ hrs of sleep when stable.) I also do shopping sprees and develop an extreme obsession with one or more things. Then I have racing thoughts and difficult-to-understand speech, according to my therapist. (Extremely fast talking, word salad, and changing from topic to topic every minute to a few minutes, where the topics have nothing to do with each other.)

[MickeyCheeky]

I think they can overlap at times. Probably the best way is to look at the whole picture, not just at some individual symptoms. Hugs to you ((((*Laurie*))))

[liveforsummer]

I can only speak about my own experience of course. I actually don’t think I’m passionate about anything in particular. The only time I feel passion for something is when hypo. The intensity can vary. Sometimes it just fizzles out then I’m left sad but other times it’s like hitting a wall and I suddenly don’t care about whatever it was I was consumed by and I’ve sunk into a black depression.

[*Laurie*]

Originally Posted by bluebicycle

I agree that passion lasts longer than mania. However, differentiating between passion and mania can be difficult when you're first becoming passionate about something. In that case, I'd say that it depends on the intensity of your "passion." Are you suddenly going to sell your house and live off the streets so that you can devote your entire life toward saving all the homeless kitties? That's pretty intense. Or, are you going to keep your house and devote some of your time toward saving homeless kitties?

Great questions! In all honesty (if I owned one) I'd keep my house, adopt many of the kitties and take care of them with all of my heart, soul, love!

[*Laurie*]

Originally Posted by bluebicycle

But to answer your reply:
Do you like your passionate nature? I know your therapist wants you to accept/embrace it, but I'm just curious about your POV.

Yes, I cherish it. But. What is the problem? Well, almost all people are terrified of passion. They will put themselves into debt to see a concert with blastingly loud music, laser lights, massive screaming crowds - passion and ecstasy! But they want to experience it for a tight little boxed-up KFC dinner of passion, then go home and live a nice, normal life.

In other words, I feel terribly isolated and misunderstood.

I also wonder: did your doctors diagnose you with bipolar because of your passionate ways, or at least partially because? If so, I can see why you are so cautious about accepting the Dx, and I don't blame you for feeling that way. Such a reason would make me question the Dx, too.

I have been dx'ed by 167 pdocs who claim that BD means having *too much passion* - in a society that is obsessed with making money, not placing value upon great art, music, literature, the ride to paradise of the bark of a certain tree, and how it has its own personality, different from any other tree. I'm not out there working 9 - 5 in an office and driving a late-model car...does that make me mentally ill?

As far as passion itself goes, do you hav PTSD? I feel that hyperarousal can (but not always) affect passion. I do not have medical proof for this concept and I do not have medical research papers to back it up, so this "concept" is simply my opinion. I just feel that PTSD/hyperarousal can make someone more sensitive to things, and that sensitivity can translate to passion. But again, IDK if you have PTSD. It's just something I've noticed, especially in my Iraq war vet cousin. I have hyperarousal, too, but not PSTD. (I'm not sure how that works out, but psychologists have said it relates to OCD and anxiety for me.) Things just make me more scared than usual because I'm afraid of past experiences recurring. Same with sadness. So I have heightened emotions/passion.

Fanatstic observation, blue! I am dx'ed with PTSD. Seems to me that my PTSD spins into more PTSD, until all of existence is one big ball of PTSD. The PTSD certainly seems to add to the passion, in general, because yes - I am hypervigilent. And I grew up in a home with exceedingly impassioned people who constantly lived way over the edge. So: nature? Nurture? Both?

I also think of sensitivity/passion in terms of BP too. I feel that people with BP *typically* have more empathy/passion than the average person because we experience all sorts of emotions and mood states.

Yes, I don't doubt that that is true, and of course, there are people like Kaye Redfield Jamison who have written volumes on the subject. It seems we're "Baskin Robbins 31" flavors, while neurotypicals are only a fraction of flavors - and often strive, with not much success, to be "more flavorful".

And just because we have extreme mood states that last seemingly ages doesn't mean we don't have mood lability involved with BP, too. I'm not saying mood lability should be criteria for BP, but I've seen research papers suggesting that BP people are more prone to minor, quick mood shifts than the average person.

I read the article (thank you!) and that article led to more articles on the subject, which I am currently studying.

And this would make sense because a lot of us have severe anger and concentration issues that exist independent of mood states and independent of medication (i.e., we have concentration issues even without Lamictal, Tegretol, AP's, etc). So I think mood lability and passion are linked, too. Basically, when we have a "mini mood swing," we become more passionate, and "mini mood swings" can (in my personal opinion) be triggered by an event like watching a sad movie. So I think sometimes that "passion" is just a mini triggered mood swing. But again, just my personal (non-professional) opinion.


WOW. Ummm...have you ever considered becoming a psychotherapist? Seriously, I'm sitting here crying because what you've written tells me that you understand. So rare to encounter another of our breed!


Yes, to take the movie example - a few days ago I saw Bohemian Rhapsody - the story of a man, and a band, the was fabulously popular during my high school years...so many, many memories! The tragic memory of seeing Freddie turn from a God into a ghost as he wasted away from AIDS.
In addition, I live close to San Francisco, my dad lived there when I was a teen and young adult. He was an interior designer, so worked with many gay men in the most gorgeous studio. I was in SF frequently during those years.


The "gay flu", which finally *earned* the name AIDS, was rampant in SF at that time. It was a horror show. A nightmare. Young men were dying such drawn-out, terrifying deaths - often entirely alone or holding a hand of another AIDS-inflicted man, because family was afraid to get near them, afraid of catching a vicious disease at a time when no one was sure of how that disease was transmitted. And so many judging those sick, dying human beings for causing their illness.

One man, my dad's co-worker - I remember feeling like a knife stabbed through me when he commented, with such defeated grief, that he and his friends were "going from one funeral to another" in the course of a day - up to 4 funerals a day, because of the number of men coming down with AIDS and dying from it. AND because - what a blessing! - now, people are living with HIV, living normal lives, instead of wasting away on their death-bound journey, alone in some hospital room.

So I saw the movie and along with the magnificent music and story, the memories of the impact of AIDS was overwhelming. I sobbed through the entire movie. When it was over I walked out into the lobby with my (adult) daughter. I could not take the steps. I sat down on a bench, put my head down, and cried years of pain that I had been holding in, pain from so many places in my soul. My daughter stood next to me looking blank, as if to say, "Here she goes again. Yeah." And I have no control over it, no more than if I have to throw up. It HAS TO happen.What you've posted is so incredibly logical. "Mini" episodes - what a terrific way to describe!

But when it comes to music? I'm sort of the same way. I get songs "stuck in my head," sometimes stupid ones like Rebecca Black's Friday (LOL). Lots of people get songs "stuck in their head too." It's a completely normal thing IMO. At the same time, I've physically heard music playing in my ears when the music didn't exist. My pdoc and therapist say that's a hallucination, because it's like hearing music through headphones or at a concert when you're doing neither. It's basically no different than voices for me.

Yes, the song stuck in my head is interesting, but annoying.Sometimes the song will give a kind of insight into something going on for me at the time.

But that other experience - the music playing non-stop. For me, though, it isn't outside of me, but is inside of my mind. An album, or a concert, or a symphony, that I'm attending for days at a time. Is that a hallucination? Is it something else?

I do think some people get voices in their head, though. Like, I think they have voices talking to them but they don't physically hear the voices in their ears like I do. So it IS possible that your non-stop music IS a hallucination even if you're not physically hearing it. I do think that non-hallucinatory music can be stopped, though, whereas hallucinatory music can't. Plus, in my experience, my "physical" voices and music do not last very long. If I listen to music or YouTube to drown out the voices/music, they both eventually go away and never come back for the rest of the day. Even if I DON'T listen to music/YouTube/whatever, the voices/music goes away fairly quickly and never comes back for the rest of the day. Plus, the voices/music are different every time for me. It's never the same song. Some people who have music "stuck" in their head hear the same song for a long time, and that same song lasts in their head for days, non-stop. I don't have that if it's a hallucination. I've never had a single hallucination (voices, music, phones ringing, visuals, psychic visions, warps to other galaxies, etc) last very long. And my therapist has said it's "completely normal" for hallucinations to last a brief period of time before going away. (I'm talking about maybe 2 minutes up to an hour.)

Is it frightening, when you hear "physical" voices or music that you cannot control? May I ask - which med are you on for the hallucinations?

One additional thought - when the lack of ability that many people dx'ed with BD to stay focused..that confuses me. I can multi-task to a point at which even I'm feeling exhausted, let alone the people around me who are trying to keep up. But I complete each task. It isn't that I start here - stop. Go there - forget. Next task - stop. Do you experience that? How is your attention span, how does it manifest?

Okay, I'll make myself stop here. I don't have words enough to express to you how much you sharing your ideas, assertions, and experiences means to me. In just your one post, you have explained more to me than all the pdocs and therapists I've ever seen have been able to explain. Maybe that's because you're not reading it from a book, but are directly experiencing it, by living it.

With all my heart and soul, blue - thank you.

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