[Jennyanydots]

I've been diagnosed with BP 1 since 2010.. BUT I'll have ups and downs in moods throughout the day. It's not everyday but I've noticed it over the past couple days I feel really down, depressed, lonely, bored and then something will suddenly peak my interest and my mood flips and ideas start flooding my mind. I suddenly have a burst of energy. Is this rapid cycling? Do people without bipolar get these shifts in moods suddenly too? Is this quote-unquote normal for everybody no matter if they suffer from mental health?

[*Beth*]

I think non-bipolars have various moods throughout each day, but the moods are within a certain range. They remain within limited boundaries, whereas we go way up, way down, way out there.

I'm not sure, but that's the first thought that comes to mind.

[HALLIEBETH87]

Not every mood
Change is bipolar

This is an explanation:

Is it a bipolar mixed episode, ultra rapid cycling, or just “mood lability”? – Bird Flight

The charts on Dr. Phelps' website are particularly interesting.

[Pookyl]

I would agree with BirdDancers article. I rapid cycle as per the definition of 4 or more clear episodes per year. I don’t rapid cycle over a day but I do experience periods of very low and very high energy levels in a 24hr period.

[~Christina]

I went about a rolling 18 months worth of “ true definition” of rapid cycling. It really to me was more a medication issue, some meds didn’t help or made matters worse, some the side effects were not tolerable. It took a long time finding a good balance back then.

My mood can vary through out a day , some because I have lots of chronic pain ... or just because I might be bored and just unmotivated and it have nothing to do with Bipolar.

We can all experience a full range of emotions and it not have a single thing to do with Bipolar.

Yeah, I agree with @HALLIEBETH87 and @~Christina in that not every mood change is due to bipolar.

I think it's important to be able to distinguish emotion from mood because they are very similar in a lot of ways, but still distinct. It is perfectly normal for anybody (i.e., neurotypicals and people with ANY mental illness) to have emotional changes throughout the day, but for people with bipolar specifically, emotions are influenced by environmental changes and/or existing mood only, while moods are due to chemical (and, rarely, environmental) changes.

It is possible you're experiencing genuine mood swings, though, so I'm not dismissing your concerns at all. In fact, I think you should set up an appt with your psychiatrist, GP, or nurse practitioner (or whoever you see) to talk about your moods to see if you're having mood swings or just emotional disturbances. However, I know firsthand that sometimes meds can cause mood swings of any duration, or even exacerbate existing ones. I know when I've been non-compliant, my moods genuinely changed every couple of hours where I'd have suicidal thoughts and come up with plans, then 2 hrs later have grandiose delusions about how amazing I was and how I was "destined" to do XYZ. So, it was NOT emotional. But that was because I'd take my meds like every few days or at completely different times fo the day (e.g., 8am on Monday, none on Tuesday, and maybe 4pm on Wednesday, then 4am on Thursday, etc. etc.).

It is extremely rare for people to have ultradian cycling on their own (i.e., without med or med compliance issues). But again, talk with your dr to come up with a solution so that you don't have to continue to experience this.

[HALLIEBETH87]

I have rapid cycling. Every dr since I was first dxd has told me so. But I can have several emotions throughout the day and not be cycling in moods.

[*Beth*]

Good point about distinguishing mood from emotion. I've never thought of that before.

I have a few different emotions in a day, but my moods are much less changeable and tend to last for a period of time...a week, weeks, or months.

Thanks, bluebicycle...you've posted something so important - no psych professional has ever explained that to me & it is significant.

[ladyconfused]

I’ve rapid-cycled in a period of a single day, every day for a period of time. Usually, any medication change causes me to rapid-cycle. However, when the medication isn’t working well for me it causes me to rapid-cycle more frequently and longer. It’s miserable. If you feel you maybe rapid cycling I’d definitely talk to a mental health professional about it soon.

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

This is an explanation:

Is it a bipolar mixed episode, ultra rapid cycling, or just “mood lability”? – Bird Flight

The charts on Dr. Phelps' website are particularly interesting.

Thanks for the article, Birdy. Very
intriguing information. Dr. Phelps makes excellent points, and they make sense to me - for sure.

[sophiebunny]

Not every mood change is bipolar disorder. Read the DSM V for the classic definition of what rapid cycling means. Mislabeling yourself is not helpful for treatment. Everyone goes through mood changes during a day. It doesn't mean those changes are clinical.

[fern46]

Originally Posted by sheltiemom2007

Not every mood change is bipolar disorder. Read the DSM V for the classic definition of what rapid cycling means. Mislabeling yourself is not helpful for treatment. Everyone goes through mood changes during a day. It doesn't mean those changes are clinical.

Isn't ultraradian cycling a thing though? My understanding of it is that moods can shift multiple times within a day in these cases. I am not sure it is recognized in the DSM, but I've heard the term several times.

I think it involves more than a minor shift. It is more of a cycle of drastic swings within a short period of time.

Originally Posted by fern46

Isn't ultraradian cycling a thing though? My understanding of it is that moods can shift multiple times within a day in these cases. I am not sure it is recognized in the DSM, but I've heard the term several times.

I think it involves more than a minor shift. It is more of a cycle of drastic swings within a short period of time.

Hi fern. I never owned the DSM-IV or earlier versions, but I do own the DSM 5. "Ultradian cycling" is not written there unless I have really overlooked it. What is mentioned is "with rapid cycling", as a specifier. It's my assumption that when that specifier is used, it likely refers to any form of rapid cycling meaning "four or more episodes in a year". There is certainly confusion in that the DSM 5 only labels a mood episode as one meeting certain time and symptom criteria. I am not 100% sure of this, but if one had significant mood shifts (as you mentioned) and they were present for days in a row and included sufficient symptoms, then maybe that could qualify as an episode????? If so, then it would clearly be up to the psychiatrist how to label it (what type of episode and specifier).

I do believe that people with bipolar disorder have mood lability not necessarily qualifying as any episode. That's known in many circles. As for anyone having mood shifts during the day that aren't "bipolar-related", sure. Fern's point is definitely valid. Regular folks don't usually feel fatigued and suicidal in the morning and elated and ultra high energy in the afternoon for no really major reason. How do us folks with bipolar disorder really know where the limits are unless we've truly learned what stability is. I think I know what regular "non bipolar" mood shifts are. I think Fern does, too. I also know what I regard as "mood lability" that is still outside the norm. This term also apples to the major drastic shifts that people with borderline personality disorder experience, but they don't own the term exclusively. That disorder has almost mandatory dx criteria that most people with bipolar disorder never meet.

For anyone interested in this topic, Dr. Phelps goes into it well. For those who want to read it but bypass my blog post, find the relevant page on Dr. Phelps' site at
Rapid Cycling And Mixed States As "Waves" - PsychEducation

[fern46]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

Hi fern. I never owned the DSM-IV or earlier versions, but I do own the DSM 5. "Ultradian cycling" is not written there unless I have really overlooked it. What is mentioned is "with rapid cycling", as a specifier. It's my assumption that when that specifier is used, it likely refers to any form of rapid cycling meaning "four or more episodes in a year". There is certainly confusion in that the DSM 5 only labels a mood episode as one meeting certain time and symptom criteria. I am not 100% sure of this, but if one had significant mood shifts (as you mentioned) and they were present for days in a row and included sufficient symptoms, then maybe that could qualify as an episode????? If so, then it would clearly be up to the psychiatrist how to label it (what type of episode and specifier).

I do believe that people with bipolar disorder have mood lability not necessarily qualifying as any episode. That's known in many circles. As for anyone having mood shifts during the day that aren't "bipolar-related", sure. Fern's point is definitely valid. Regular folks don't usually feel fatigued and suicidal in the morning and elated and ultra high energy in the afternoon for no really major reason. How do us folks with bipolar disorder really know where the limits are unless we've truly learned what stability is. I think I know what regular "non bipolar" mood shifts are. I think Fern does, too. I also know what I regard as "mood lability" that is still outside the norm. This term also apples to the major drastic shifts that people with borderline personality disorder experience, but they don't own the term exclusively. That disorder has almost mandatory dx criteria that most people with bipolar disorder never meet.

For anyone interested in this topic, Dr. Phelps goes into it well. For those who want to read it but bypass my blog post, find the relevant page on Dr. Phelps' site at
Rapid Cycling And Mixed States As "Waves" - PsychEducation

Good stuff as always BirdDancer! I found this... It references ultra rapid cycling and ultraradian cycling. My guess is it ia a term we now have to describe something that has been observed clinically, but yet to be officially diagnosed.

Ultra-rapid and ultradian cycling in bipolar affective illness. - PubMed - NCBI

Edited to add... I just read your article. It seems in line with what I was thinking. It shows ultraradians cycling as cycling within days or hours.

Originally Posted by fern46

Good stuff as always BirdDancer! I found this... It references ultra rapid cycling and ultraradian cycling. My guess is it ia a term we now have to describe something that has been observed clinically, but yet to be officially diagnosed.

Ultra-rapid and ultradian cycling in bipolar affective illness. - PubMed - NCBI

Edited to add... I just read your article. It seems in line with what I was thinking. It shows ultraradians cycling as cycling within days or hours.

Thanks for sharing that, fern!

I think a lot of doctors continue to use the terms "ultra rapid" and "ultradian" cycling, despite the DSM 5. I think for good reason. I have read about doubters, though. Or "purests". Before the DSM 5, officially (according to the DSM-IV) people with bipolar type 2 never experienced mixed episodes/states, but that was so wrong! I know many psychiatrists knew that was wrong, thus its inclusion in the DSM 5 (and the formation of "specifiers"). Obviously the DSM 5 is not perfect and will change. I've read of many psychiatrists who were on the committee for the DSM 5 so angry that they left it because of various objections and dissatisfaction. One example of a major point of contention relates to bipolar disorder dxs in children. Of course that's a whole other major subject.

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by sheltiemom2007

Not every mood change is bipolar disorder. Read the DSM V for the classic definition of what rapid cycling means. Mislabeling yourself is not helpful for treatment. Everyone goes through mood changes during a day. It doesn't mean those changes are clinical.

Take a look at the article BirdDancer posted (link). It addresses exactly what you've posted. The classic definition is being questioned by many professionals.

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

....I do believe that people with bipolar disorder have mood lability not necessarily qualifying as any episode. That's known in many circles. As for anyone having mood shifts during the day that aren't "bipolar-related", sure. Fern's point is definitely valid. Regular folks don't usually feel fatigued and suicidal in the morning and elated and ultra high energy in the afternoon for no really major reason. How do us folks with bipolar disorder really know where the limits are unless we've truly learned what stability is. I think I know what regular "non bipolar" mood shifts are. I think Fern does, too. I also know what I regard as "mood lability" that is still outside the norm. This term also apples to the major drastic shifts that people with borderline personality disorder experience, but they don't own the term exclusively. That disorder has almost mandatory dx criteria that most people with bipolar disorder never meet.

Oh, my gosh! What you have written describes all of it so perfectly. The part I bolded...I find that so helpful. Thank you

I've been going through it even though at first I was sceptical about the common will give you throw in a way around word cycling, but it's been like 5 weeks now come on then lol

[~Christina]

One last bit I’ll add ...

People often confuse rapid cycling with just being unstable.

Until you find stability and “ your particular baseline” there’s no way to determine if your having rapid cycling or just struggling to GET TO a baseline.

Often I have days where I’m all over the place mentally, maybe some is Bipolar ? and some is just normal reactions to life around me.

I honestly don’t worry much about my mood wobbling around unless it’s at least 5/6 days in a row.

Today I’m having moods all over the place and it has zero to do with Bipolar.

[*Beth*]

This thread is immensely educational.

So a lot of talk about baseline and stability.


How do we know what our baseline is and how do we know what "stable" means - especially when medication is in the picture? When we say baseline do we mean what our baseline is when not on meds? Or can we have a baseline while on medication?

I hope someone can explain and clarify. I still have no idea what the two terms really mean.

[~Christina]

When I refer to baseline it’s as my Pdoc believes.

“ To feel content with life” able to go about life taking care of responsibilities and also enjoying feeling good and able to enjoy activities of whatever level your comfortable with ( like I’ll never be okay in crowds )

Something that the majority of people who have Bipolar struggle with is how to recognize the difference between hypo happy and baseline happy

For me Hypo happy is fantastical , everything is sparkling, colors are brighter , food tastes amazing everything is just MORE .. of course it feels Amazing.

My baseline is ... things are good. I’m enjoying my life, I’m happy with what I have. I take care of my day to day responsibilities, I make plans for the future. Things to look forward too. I have a positive attitude.

Now if you compare Hypo feel versus baseline of course everyone would rather feel hypo all the time.

Hypo is like a drug. People get hooked on drugs to get high because it feels Amazing but it can’t last for long because there whole life starts to crumble.

So everyone in there own way has to come to there own realization what hypo is and how it looks in there life vs non hypo but enjoying life baseline.

For me .... I had to really look at the way my Bipolar would flow. Yes Hypo is great but what always always follows is dark ugly angry rage. So as much as hypo is appealing I work hard to reel myself back , step away from that flashing neon light calling me because I dooooo enjoy my stability, it’s not boring. I work hard to stay stable... I owe that to myself as much as for my loved ones. Hypo/manic episodes can be devastating to me but also anyone in my life.

I dunno maybe that doesn’t make sense to anyone but that’s how I’ve made sense of me to myself.

For me whether I am on meds or off is the same way thought process . I’m currently med free and doing very well Bipolar wise.

[Pookyl]

I agree with Christina. In addition I would say that while baseline refers to ‘being content with life’, stability refers to the duration of the baseline state. E.g. I am content with life and I have been so for 2.5 months. So I would say that I have been stable for 2.5 months.

[~Christina]

Originally Posted by Pookyl

I agree with Christina. In addition I would say that while baseline refers to ‘being content with life’, stability refers to the duration of the baseline state. E.g. I am content with life and I have been so for 2.5 months. So I would say that I have been stable for 2.5 months.

Yes that !!!!!

Thank you because I just could not figure out how to put it into words/ type lol

[*Beth*]

I am sitting here with my eyes tearing up...no one has ever explained baseline and stable to me in a way that I truly understood the meanings of those words. Thank you, Christina and thank you Pookyl

I'm saving what both of you have written so I can refer to it. You know...it's such a confusing feeling when people keep telling me to recognize my baseline, then work hard to be stable. And those people are mental health professionals who I know mean well. They care. They want me to do what they're urging me to do for my own good.

And I sit there and I struggle to understand what on earth it is that they want me to do and I feel like I am working so hard, I'm working hard to be this word they keep telling me - but I have absolutely no clue as to what that word means, or how to grab it and hold onto it when I feel it!

Maybe it just takes others with bipolar disorder to explain the whole concept in a way I can understand. Christina, you explained the sensation of hypomania so perfectly it's delightfully excruciating for me to read! Exactly that, yes- you have given me a great gift with your explanation.

Thank you both, immensely!

Christina, how do you do this without meds? Is there a point at which you do use meds ( for example, when a particularly intense episode occurs), or do you make it through some other way?