Bipolar and High Educational Performance

I want to first and foremost give credit to bluebicycle for the thread entitled "Do you feel you've lost IQ points?". I would have posted this in that thread, but felt it spun off just enough to have its own. So, medication effects aside -- some studies show some surprising details about bipolar disorder.



This may not come a news to anyone, but I came across a study that suggest that perhaps high educational performance is a feature of bipolar. The study looks at Bipolar I disorder specifically. I think it's an interesting topic. Actually, while in graduate school I got certified to be a director of the gifted and talented in public schools. I always found it important to educate both teachers and parents on the subject, because there is this prevailing misconception of what it means to be gifted or talented. I've had arguments over whether someone with an ILP (someone who has [typically cognitive] disabilities that require accommodations) could be gifted (assuming IQ is the determining factor in giftedness). It's hard to re-work what seems counter-intuitive, but good grades do not equal gifted, or no behavior problems = sign of a gifted child (while both could be a factor, they aren't defining). Those statements are simply not true. I only bring it up because of the idea that "mental illness" hinders us from being intelligent or have capabilities beyond the general population. Again, this isn't true.


I guess I just draw some inspiration from studies like this – I suffer from disillusionment of the world. I know how debilitating my illness can be to me, and how hard I have to fight to overcome its effects on me. Some days it doesn’t even seem worth it if I can’t even come out on top, why continue to fight so hard just to show I can perform basic tasks the rest of the world can easily accomplish? It really homes in on that insecurity of “You’re not good enough”. Well – here is an example of where we see mental illness does not hinder innate ability for success. That gives me hope.

Maybe it can remind those of us who feel we can’t be enough that we may just be holding ourselves down by stigma.

Link to the article:
High educational performance is a distinctive feature of bipolar disorder; a study on cognition in bipolar disorder, schizophrenia patients, relatives and controls

Vreeker, A., Boks, M. P. M., Abramovic, L., Verkooijen, S., Bergen, A. H. V., Hillegers, M. H. J., … Ophoff, R. A. (2015). High educational performance is a distinctive feature of bipolar disorder: a study on cognition in bipolar disorder, schizophrenia patients, relatives and controls. Psychological Medicine, 46(4), 807–818. doi: 10.1017/s0033291715002299

That’s really Interesting so lower IQ, but higher education in people with bipolar compared to controls. I guess we just work harder at school....

I poked around the National Institutes of Health and found articles presenting both views. The dividing line seems to be whether the title uses "cognition" versus "intelligence". Some studies found "significant" and higher rates of cognitive impairment in bipolar subjects, while others saw a connection between higher intelligence and the probability that subjects would develop bipolar disorder. One interesting investigation found bipolars have lower intelligence and higher educational achievement, kinda like you saw.

Half of one, six dozen of another, I suppose.

I have 2 MS degrees. One in biochemistry and one in toxicology. I have also been a cancer researcher for most of my professional life. At the height of my struggles with my disability I still tested by the psychiatric hospital as gifted. I also have cognitive impairments in spatial relations and name recognition. However, after a severe manic episode, I'm always short term memory impaired. My psychiatrist calls it normal and it does pass. I haven't "lost IQ points" but I do have discrete areas of functioning that are impaired. Bright people compensate for the impairment and it doesn't effect IQ.

I have been in college off and on for twenty years. I get great grades and I have high intelligence, then my cognitive skills appear. I can hardly get to work because I talk myself out of everything. My peers really could careless about my intelligence. It is sad because I cannot override my medication and live a normal and happy life. My ex-boyfriend told me I was creepy because I had no ambition. That really hurt.

Bupropion, Lithium, Iron, and migraine meds.
I was diagnosed 25 years ago. My intelligence reigns over cognition.

I dont have the IQ to contribute to this thread

Only skimmed the article so far, I will read it in full later if I have the time because it looks quite interesting.

A few questions that come to mind on first reading (sorry if I overlooked the answers in the article):

• Do they say anything about the age of the BD-1 subjects in their sample? Perhaps BD people start out with a high IQ, hence the high education, and then IQ drops off with age?
• It would also be interesting to know what meds the sample patients were on, because I wonder if those meds are related to the IQ drop.

As for my personal story, at least as a child I was labeled "gifted" by a psychologist, whatever that means. I did well in primary school, but horrible in high school. I now know that was because I had my first depressive episodes during adolescence, and I also don't perform well in the kind of restrictive environment that is high school (mandatory attendance, verbal information transfer, and so on).

I managed to get into a good university, and there I did really well, top of my class. I think it's because university gave me the freedom to study in the way that works for me. I rarely attended lectures because I much prefer to study on my own, which is impossible in high school. I went on to get a PhD and was a pretty successful academic in my field (I've since moved on to be an industry researcher because teaching is not for me). I've always had lots of ambition, but restrictive/authoritarian environments stifle that ambition and then I perform horribly. I wish schools would have more attention for individual learning styles, but that's off-topic I suppose.

One thing that doing a PhD has made me realize is that a high IQ is nice, but not enough. Having a high IQ without ambition or perseverance is next to worthless.

I have said it before but I believe this kind of testing has very little practical utility, other than to label students and put them in separate pots. So, what was the IQ of Mozart, then? Miles Davis? Jimi Hendrix? Carrie Underwood? Walt Whitman or Shakespeare? Van Gogh or Rembrandt? Thich Nhat Hanh or Jesus? Nelson Mandela or MLK, Jr.? Michael Jordan or Serena Williams? Julia Child or Joel Robuchon?

Aptitude comes in many different forms. If you want to find out someone's true abilities, you can't just test in one narrow realm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Christina I dont have the IQ to contribute to this thread

You posted what I was thinking.

It's called being "twice-exceptional" when someone has a disability and is also gifted. I think this is the case for many bipolar folk, myself included. The semester just before I got my diagnosis, I got straight A's, taking 1 more than the max allowed number of classes. (I didn't register for one of the classes, and just showed up and did the work and everything). I always got stellar grades even when my life was falling apart. I've had to learn to dial it back and focus on cultivating balance in my life... now I hate school. But being gifted and pretty severely BP1 is totally a thing.

I don't think I'm gifted but I did complete two bachelor degrees in 4 years and I also have a masters degree. My IQ? Prob average. I just work hard, regardless of my diagnosis.

Great that you are so accomplished, but not everybody can just "work hard" - for example, I could not attend college while I was being hospitalized. I wasn't using my diagnosis as an excuse and I certainly couldn't "work harder" and overcome it - other people can't attend college at all. I hope you will reconsider your evaluation and acknowledge that you are gifted.

I think the following is the key quote here, relating IQ to BP: "One of the explanations for the contradictory finding regarding high educational performance and lower intelligence in BD-I patients is that intelligence may have been higher before onset of BD, but decreased after illness onset". Here IQ has decreased after onset of the disease. But from what I understand, actual numerated IQ does not change for a person. So I see it a little differently. Their performance on an IQ test degraded, not their innate intelligence. In effect, they were not able to make productive use of the intelligence they have. This sounds allot like me.

I know I can be smart. But I feel stupid. Sometimes I cannot deal with simple things. I am confused. My mind has problem coming up with simple words. Then a switch is toggled. I find good, intelligent use of words coming from me. They just pop into my head. Words I thought I did not know. So there is some sort of cognitive handicap there, but not a decrease in innate intelligence. At this part of the cycle, I think I would get a higher score on an IQ test.

@~Christina @BethRags You're both being silly. I've seen plenty of threads you add both insight and wisdom both! Don't be so hard on yourself. I know you're intelligent!



@Jennyanydots @unicornlady @Tucson

I am not a fan of using IQ as a basis for anything. I won’t get into my feelings on the subject because they are rather sore. I wanted to say a lot of us fall into these categories you mentioned. I have to agree with @Jennyanydots that sometimes just working hard is what gets us through. I luckily didn’t have any episodes that prevented me from getting my Bachelor’s degree – but I did have to postpone my Master’s degree almost two years before finishing, and I had to put my PhD on permanent hold due to an episode (and obtaining a PhD was a significant dream of mine). Attending college doesn’t make you gifted, or smart – it simply means you had means to utilize the gifts you do have into something you want to do.
I think we can receive as quickly as it can be taken away. I lost a job in my career field due to an episode. It’s a cycle that can come at the most inopportune time.

I don't think educational achievement need depend on high IQs. Obviously, many people with high IQs don't always go on to attain higher level degrees. Achievement, itself, can take on many forms, and there are many forms of intelligence.

As a younger teen, my main focus was ballet, at the expense of scholastic achievement. I was a very good dancer. Then ballet stopped (long story). I then focused more on scholastic achievement. I did well. I did manage to get a bachelor's degree in four years, then instead of going on to graduate school, I traveled, worked, and studied in Asia. Afterwards, I got a related job in the US and moved up the corporate ladder. No Master's degree, but definitely the equivalent, in terms of educational and other forms of achievement, I think.

I have officially earned nine additional college credits since my bachelor's degree, but I'll likely never go on for a Master's. No need. As for the career I mentioned, that ended almost nine years ago. Some might look at these past nine years of mine as low achievement years. I don't. They have been among the most significant years of my life. Significant, but definitely not all "great". Understatement. Though I don't have an official PhD in anything, I feel I deserve an honorary one in many ways.

I do love to learn new things. I do research every single day.

I don't know my exact IQ. I believe it was tested when I was around eight or nine. I recall being told I was a smart girl. I also recall, years earlier, overhearing my parents say my older brother had a "very superior" IQ. I deduced that my brother was smarter than me. He definitely is in many ways, but not all. He never admits his weaknesses, while I do. By the way, he doesn't have as many university credits as me.

@BirdDancer There have been many variants used now to expand the idea of intelligence and types of intelligence. I don’t have the time at the moment but if you get a chance look up Gardner’s multiple intelligences theory. It’s one we learned in college and there are some tests online you can do to see some of your strong suits. It can be interesting! (Typing from phone so this message may be incomprehensible by the time I hit send. Lol)

@MarcusAurelius I am also not a fan of using IQ. What I was trying to convey is that I felt offended by the implication that anyone could complete college in 4 years if they just "work hard." I worked my *** off, but it took me 5 years since I had to take a semester off due to my episode. I also think that you're right that giftedness is independent from college attendance. What I was trying to convey is that going through college in a timely manner is actually a big deal for those of us with BP.

FWIW, I don't think she meant it that way. It sounded to me like she was explaining how she was able to do it and that it wasn't necessarily an IQ thing for her at the time. I didn't take away from her statement that she believes people with mental illness can always achieve the same if they just power through and work hard. I'll let her answer, but wanted to toss that out.

I think most of us here understand what a detrimental impact an episode or a run of bad episodes can have on your life and your goals. I think we'd all probably also agree that taking time away from your goals to regain your health is very wise if needed.

Thanks fern, I acknowledge that she probably didn't mean it that way. It's always hard when you're communicating via written words with not much context. I was reacting pretty strongly, I know. I appreciate your comment.

Very cool of you to say that! I'm a little sensitive about the toll my episode took on me and the hit my professional life has taken. I'd be pissed if I thought someone was telling me that taking time away wasn't necessary and that I should have just tried harder. I'd kindly ask them to experience a mixed episode with psychosis and get back to me

@FluffyDinosaur: I also study better on my own than in a restrictive classroom setting. I like to follow my curiosity. Just recently it led me to study Mormon oratory. I study lots of things now that i am on disability benefits. I can go at my own pace. I have time and all i need is my Internet connection! I did okay in high school and university. I had to delay one of my final exam so i did not graduate with my class tho -- a disappointment. I seemed to flourish at work when i was given the unusual and golden opportunity to learn computer programming on-the-job. My boss just gave me the assignment and left me alone. It was the best arrangement for me. I also feel IQ alone is not enough and that ambition and perseverance are also essential for success.

An executive that i greatly admired told me that when he interviews people and they have degrees he doesn't care what their major was or what their transcript looked like All it means to him is that they tried to complete a long project and succeeded. I think that's a good way of looking at it. Perseverance was definitely the hardest part of my degree for me -- hanging in there when i was so depressed i could hardly speak, the endless obstacles, the unrealistic reading lists, the irritating personality skirmishes, the anxiety so intense i couldn't function and had to get a doctor's note, etc.

Congrats on the PhD by the way! That's really impressive!

Thank you! I consider myself extremely lucky to have been relatively stable for most of my time at university and grad school. I also get a lot of freedom in my current job, which I'm very grateful for because it allows me a lot of leeway to even out my ups and downs in performance. I think it's a sort of cumulative luck, because once you have a PhD it's much easier to find jobs with a lot of freedom.

It's interesting the kind of boost in creativity you get when you don't "have to," isn't it? I notice the same thing in that I sometimes get more motivated to work during the holidays than otherwise. Funny how that works. I've been finding myself longing back to when I was a kid and I just had entire days to follow my curiosity with no particular goal in mind. I sometimes try to replicate that during work by not focusing on the result too much, though I'm not that good at it yet.

From reading the comments here and skimming through the article I think I've learnt alot. My story I would say is abit different in my opinion. From elementary to Junior year of highschool, I was in the special needs department due to a specific learning disability. I had fellow classmates told me I was not smart enough for college. Well I ended up proving them wrong. I graduated in 4 and a half years and now in the process of getting into a Masters program (with PhD in the distant horizon). I think alot of it was my ambition and drive to prove others wrong. I do also think my IQ is average. Although I do think I have a higher level of emotional intelligence in my opinion.

I was wondering these two things after reading the article:

1) Does the increase in serotonin and other neurotransmitters results in the lowering of IQ for those with BD-1?
2) Whats the connection between emotional intelligence and BD-1?

Would love to hear what you all think!