[bpcyclist]

As some know, I have written a book about my time in a state forensic psych system. I am very interested in any thoughts or views people on the bipolar board people may have about anything to do with any type of insanity defense. I am asking both here and on the schizophrenia board, since these two groups make up the majority of folks who successfully assert the insanity defense, a least in the USA.

Any and all thoughts greatly appreciated!!!

Hi bpcyclist. I admire you, greatly, that you are writing about your experiences and that you have interest in the subject-mentioned topic. It is such an important one!

Wow, I could probably go on about my views for hours, but I've been struggling with my communication, lately.

The insanity defense is being used less and less, from what I read a couple years back. Am I right? I believe not nearly as often as it should. And even when it's used, it seems to do far less than it should. Normally I avoid referring to my blog, but I once wrote a post called "Why Jails & Prisons Shouldn't Be Mental Asylums". If you are interested in my post (no pressure), it is at Why Jails And Prisons Shouldn’t Be Mental Asylums – Bird Flight I included a good quoted section from Pete Earley's website. I recommend checking his website out. His book "Crazy: A Father’s Search Through America’s Mental Health Madness" is a must read, if you haven't already.

I am quite distressed about the demonization of the mentally ill who commit crimes. Also, there are so many mentally ill people, particularly poor mentally ill, that spend far too much time in jails and prisons. Pete Earley's book goes into this. Prison reform, in general, is a topic I'm passionate about. I've written to my congressmen and women many times about the topic. I am also a huge fan of Bryan Stevenson who works hard to prevent wrongful death row convictions and exceedingly long sentences for not only mentally ill in prisons, but others, as well. Again, the poor (and particularly minorities) are more vulnerable to such excessive sentences. It's racism as well, in way way too many cases!

I once wrote a blog post called "Hating is not fair" at Hating is not fair – Bird Flight which also discussed mentally ill in prisons/jails. It is also about stigma. Double standards regarding mental illness stigma are prevalent. For example, both bipolar disorder and various impulse and conduct disorders are included in the DSM-5, but it is not uncommon that a person with bipolar disorder would stigmatize people with other DSM diagnoses. One comment below this mentioned blog post shows that. I know that commenter. He is a good man, but sees some things differently than I do.

Children charged as adults for crimes?!?!?! I think it's an atrocity! Honestly, it blows my mind that they do that.

I never knew my father-in-law. He was 52 when my husband was born, and my husband was in his late 30s when he married me. His father was both a psychiatrist and neurologist back in his day. As a portion of his job, he appeared in courts in cases where insanity pleas were brought up. He would testify either in support or not of the pleas. That was long ago in Czechoslovakia. In many cases, where insanity was clear, the defendant was not put in prison. They were sent to psychiatric institutions. In many cases, when they were treated properly and recovered sufficiently they were eventually released, depending on the severity of the offense. Mentally ill who commit crimes in the US are in a much worse situation, usually, than the same who would commit crimes in most countries of Europe, nowadays. In this respect, the US can be one mean-*** country! And with the possible continuation of the current situation, it could get even meaner.

Possible trigger:

Note: Rape, murder, psych hospitals....Some years back, I read in my local newspaper that a patient at the psychiatric hospital that I was in (same ward) murdered his roommate. Obviously that patient was mentally unstable, or he wouldn't have been there. What happened was that the patient (who murdered) was raped by his roommate repeatedly, obviously another mentally unstable man. The raped patient, already in extreme psychiatric distress, was pushed over the limit and murdered his rapist after another rape (I won't go into how). The nurses and other staff didn't even know until he was walking around the ward, almost in a trance, and someone noticed blood all over him. It's an incredibly sad story, for sure! For both men. I did read that they took that patient who murdered to a high security psychiatric institution. However, my question is if he was eventually transferred to a prison for the murder? I guess I'll never know, but I know that that happens in similar cases all of the time.

[bpcyclist]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

Hi bpcyclist. I admire you, greatly, that you are writing about your experiences and that you have interest in the subject-mentioned topic. It is such an important one!

Wow, I could probably go on about my views for hours, but I've been struggling with my communication, lately.

The insanity defense is being used less and less, from what I read a couple years back. Am I right? I believe not nearly as often as it should. And even when it's used, it seems to do far less than it should. Normally I avoid referring to my blog, but I once wrote a post called "Why Jails & Prisons Shouldn't Be Mental Asylums". If you are interested in my post (no pressure), it is at Why Jails And Prisons Shouldn’t Be Mental Asylums – Bird Flight I included a good quoted section from Pete Earley's website. I recommend checking his website out. His book "Crazy: A Father’s Search Through America’s Mental Health Madness" is a must read, if you haven't already.

I am quite distressed about the demonization of the mentally ill who commit crimes. Also, there are so many mentally ill people, particularly poor mentally ill, that spend far too much time in jails and prisons. Pete Earley's book goes into this. Prison reform, in general, is a topic I'm passionate about. I've written to my congressmen and women many times about the topic. I am also a huge fan of Bryan Stevenson who works hard to prevent wrongful death row convictions and exceedingly long sentences for not only mentally ill in prisons, but others, as well. Again, the poor (and particularly minorities) are more vulnerable to such excessive sentences. It's racism as well, in way way too many cases!

I once wrote a blog post called "Hating is not fair" at Hating is not fair – Bird Flight which also discussed mentally ill in prisons/jails. It is also about stigma. Double standards regarding mental illness stigma are prevalent. For example, both bipolar disorder and various impulse and conduct disorders are included in the DSM-5, but it is not uncommon that a person with bipolar disorder would stigmatize people with other DSM diagnoses. One comment below this mentioned blog post shows that. I know that commenter. He is a good man, but sees some things differently than I do.

Children charged as adults for crimes?!?!?! I think it's an atrocity! Honestly, it blows my mind that they do that.

I never knew my father-in-law. He was 52 when my husband was born, and my husband was in his late 30s when he married me. His father was both a psychiatrist and neurologist back in his day. As a portion of his job, he appeared in courts in cases where insanity pleas were brought up. He would testify either in support or not of the pleas. That was long ago in Czechoslovakia. In many cases, where insanity was clear, the defendant was not put in prison. They were sent to psychiatric institutions. In many cases, when they were treated properly and recovered sufficiently they were eventually released, depending on the severity of the offense. Mentally ill who commit crimes in the US are in a much worse situation, usually, than the same who would commit crimes in most countries of Europe, nowadays. In this respect, the US can be one mean-*** country! And with the possible continuation of the current situation, it could get even meaner.

Possible trigger:

Note: Rape, murder, psych hospitals....Some years back, I read in my local newspaper that a patient at the psychiatric hospital that I was in (same ward) murdered his roommate. Obviously that patient was mentally unstable, or he wouldn't have been there. What happened was that the patient (who murdered) was raped by his roommate repeatedly, obviously another mentally unstable man. The raped patient, already in extreme psychiatric distress, was pushed over the limit and murdered his rapist after another rape (I won't go into how). The nurses and other staff didn't even know until he was walking around the ward, almost in a trance, and someone noticed blood all over him. It's an incredibly sad story, for sure! For both men. I did read that they took that patient who murdered to a high security psychiatric institution. However, my question is if he was eventually transferred to a prison for the murder? I guess I'll never know, but I know that that happens in similar cases all of the time.

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully, BirdDancer. I am going to dig into those links and then, I will post more.

[Blissfullyme]

This was very interesting to Read! I'm not educated enough on these matters to have anything to add but really enjoyed reading about it all. Food for thought.

Here's Bryan Stevenson's bio on the Equal Justice Initiative (EJI) website. Bryan Stevenson

PBS recently broadcasted The Definition of Insanity (The Definition of Insanity: Season 2020 Episodes | PBS). Pete Earley wrote that it is an "eight part series that reveals how Miami Dade County, Florida, has transformed itself from a hellhole of misery into a national model when it comes to jail diversion, Crisis Intervention Team Training, and other mental health services." Pete Earley's book "Crazy" (a Pulitzer Prize nominee) includes a thorough investigation into mentally ill at that prison.

[bpcyclist]

Oh, wow, great--thanks a lot!!

Originally Posted by bpcyclist

Oh, wow, great--thanks a lot!!

If you click the picture, it will lead to the PBS video.

I'll stop here. I've been on a bit of a rampage today. Sorry.

[TishaBuv]

There’s a criteria to meet where you have to prove the perpetrator didn’t know right from wrong at the time. I learned this from watching the ID channel, Dateline, etc...

[divine1966]

My family member has work experience with people who deemed insane after they pleaded insanity. Two were placed in a psychiatric facility on a high acuity unit with limited to none security measures as it ain’t no prison pardon my double negative. One was prosecuted for murders, the other don’t know what for.

One ran away from psych hospital the same day he was placed there by law enforcement and was on a loose for two weeks. It was all over our newspapers, he was eventually caught. No idea where he went as obviously he didn’t return to the same hospital. The other one ran away eventually too and killed someone on outside the same day.

So in summary in my experience people who plead insanity defense and deemed too insane to serve their sentence are pretty much out there on the loose. Psychiatric facilities they are placed to aren’t equipped to keep them there as they are not prisons plus restraint (except certain extreme circumstances) is prohibited

Even high acuity units in psychiatric hospitals absolutely aren’t prisons and personnel aren’t prison guards. These are medical faculties, not jails

Yes prison and jails are not mental institution. But mental institutions cannot ensure that people will actually stay there as those aren’t prisons.

[Fuzzybear]

Interesting thread! Thanks for sharing!

[Tucson]

I am sure there are those using the insanity plea who were actually legally insane when they committed their illegal acts against another. However, here is the other side of the question as it relates to BP,

I know of one with BP that was acquitted in court of the legal consequences of his behavior due to mental illness, Later, durinf a heated exchange between him and another driver, he took a stick and smashed the other guy"s car window. His wife asked him why he did it, He said it was his “bipolar”, Apparently the charge that he got off from emboldened him to do other acts. It makes me wonder how much in control he was during the first incident.

We all have impulses and overwhelming desires when manic, I wonder how much effort we put into keep from acting on them, Instead, do some of us let it happen because it is pleasurable, irregardless of the consequence, which are then much easier to ignore? I wonder how much this relates to the insanity defense that people with BP use.

As a side note, when I was married, I was in a terrible relationship with my wife. One day I was hypersexual, It was very very tempting to pursue sexual pleasure with someone else. It was difficult, but I did not, I could of easily cheated on my wife, and have a ready made excuse to myself.

Have there been mistakes with the insanity plea? Yes. However, it is disconcerting to read what almost sounds like arguments saying that people must always suffer full consequences for actions even if severely unwell, mentally. If they weren't the implications, I would like to be corrected.

[fern46]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

Have there been abuses of the insanity plea? Yes. However, it is disconcerting to read what almost sounds like arguments saying that people must always suffer full consequences for actions even if severely unwell, mentally. If they weren't the implications, I would like to be corrected.

I'm not correcting you as I cannot speak for others, but didn't take it that way. I see the question of whether or not there are times when the defense is used when the person who uses it actually did have a level of control of their behavior. The answer to that is yes, but I don't feel anyone here has implicated people should suffer full consequences if mentally unwell. We cannot see intent with our eyes. We can only guess and compare to what we have ourselves experienced. That is tricky and leaves lots of room for error. Unfortunately, it is subjective and the best we have at the moment.

I also see questioning whether or not very violent mentally ill patients have a place to go that is properly suited for the security needs of other patients as well as their caregivers. I think we have evidence to say that system is lacking, but I didn't feel anyone is saying they shouldn't be able to be extended some sort of grace because of their condition.

I believe wholeheartedly in the insanity defense. I know from first hand experience there is a level of impairment that can occur where one has zero control over their actions. I might not have believed that until I lived it myself.

I had no idea I was mentally unwell. My family did not see it coming. PTSD hit me hard and mania and psychosis set in very quickly. If I had to face charges for my actions in court I would have most definitely had to use the insanity plea as it is the only truthful explanation for what happened. I did everything that happened that night, but I blacked out for a lot of it and when I was 'awake' I had zero ability to process thoughts. It was like I was a puppet on a stage.

I would have needed to rely on the testimony of my husband and the professionals that treated me that night to explain how incredibly out of my mind I was. I would have wanted to prove that after finding out I have the capacity to be impaired in this way, I am doing all I can to treat my condition and avoid it becoming as severe in the future. I would have wanted a way to take responsibility for my actions without being punished as though I did any of it on purpose. I would hope to trade punishment for a requirement to demonstrate rehabilitation efforts.

My hope would be a judge could hear that story and show me mercy and grace and give me a chance to go back to my life. However, I would hope that chance would come along with conditions to ensure I was taking the appropriate steps to address the factors that contributed to such an episode. For me, that would be pdoc and T care. For someone else, that might mean institutionalization for a time period depending on the severity of the crime.

For situations like Tucson mentioned I think it comes down to a question of patterns. If an individual has previously used the defense and continues to act violently we need to look at the effort going into addressing their condition. If therapy and meds are not working and they continue to act violently it does not seem right to me to continue to allow a person to repeat those behaviors as their actions impact the safety of others. I don't think jail is the right answer and I also see security issues in some of the medical facilities. I realize many with these conditions do put effort into rehabilitation and yet still cycle. I realize that they can try extremely hard and still be incredibly impaired.

I think the truth is we have a hole in the system. We do not yet have an optimal solution for individuals who continue to have episodes where they are imparied and violent leading them to crimes they would not have otherwise committed. I don't know what a program like that would look like. In my opinion, even the programs we have for non-crime related hospitalizations are incredibly lacking. I am not sure where exactly to start, but in my mind any valuable change stems from actually beginning to understand what causes these conditions.

We know mentally impaited patients are a safety risk. They are. I was. Society has a right to carry fear of people in that state. However. I agree demonizing it serves no purpose. Understanding it and learning how to transform it does. I feel it is time to throw more resources at figuing out why we are impaired and trying new ways to address it. Otherwise, all we are doing is throwing the same broken solution at a huge problem and hoping it will magically fix itself. Didn't Einstein say that is the very definition of insanity? Ironic.

@fern46, thank you for responding to my post (and really bpcyclist's thread, as a whole). You make a lot of valuable points here. You are right that the system is in great need of reform. It is complex, indeed.

Safety for all is crucial, but so is appropriate and humane treatment of people who are ill. Unfortunately, too, so many mentally ill that find themselves incarcerated for long periods (or repeatedly) are poor and/or have little effective support, and may not have the same opportunities that people like you and me have. Nature and nurture affects all of our lives in different ways.

[fern46]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

@fern46, thank you for responding to my post (and really bpcyclist's thread, as a whole). You make a lot of valuable points here. You are right that the system is in great need of reform. It is complex, indeed.

Safety for all is crucial, but so is appropriate and humane treatment of people who are ill. Unfortunately, too, so many mentally ill that find themselves incarcerated for long periods (or repeatedly) are poor and/or have little effective support, and may not have the same opportunities that people like you and me have. Nature and nurture affects all of our lives in different ways.

I totally agree.

I honestly feel most people who commit crimes are mentally ill in some form or another. I feel there are very few who wish to have their freedoms revoked. We are lacking insight into all of the reasons people do what they do, but there are causes that lead them to such actions. I feel criminals deserve humane treatment as well. There is so much opportunity in this arena and I hold a lot of hope for a future where we cam better serve all of society as a whole.

Originally Posted by fern46

I totally agree.

I honestly feel most people who commit crimes are mentally ill in some form or another. I feel there are very few who wish to have their freedoms revoked. We are lacking insight into all of the reasons people do what they do, but there are causes that lead them to such actions. I feel criminals deserve humane treatment as well. There is so much opportunity in this arena and I hold a lot of hope for a future where we cam better serve all of society as a whole.

I wish the criminal justice system in the US could adopt changes using models from other countries where there is greater success. Actually, learning from others is always a good thing, but there is just plain too much resistance (so many reasons/factors).

[fern46]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

I wish the criminal justice system in the US could adopt changes using models from other countries where there is greater success. Actually, learning from others is always a good thing, but there is just plain too much resistance (so many reasons/factors).

It is a great thing. We could also stand to learn a lot from our own people. We work in verticals that do not work together. Industries have boundaries and the experts within them tend to stay in their own lane. We rely on experts in particular fields or verticals to design the systems and yet they do not typically have expertise in system analysis and design. That makes zero sense to me. Also, when experts do speak up with better ideas we silence them.

We have to be willing to break these systems down, look for root cause of failure and then reach across the table to other verticals, other countries and really anyone with strategically sound thought and restructure what is broken. There are a lot of systems in the spotlight at the moment that need this same level of care and redesign, but In don't want to derail this too much.

[bpcyclist]

Originally Posted by Tucson

I am sure there are those using the insanity plea who were actually legally insane when they committed their illegal acts against another. However, here is the other side of the question as it relates to BP,

I know of one with BP that was acquitted in court of the legal consequences of his behavior due to mental illness, Later, durinf a heated exchange between him and another driver, he took a stick and smashed the other guy"s car window. His wife asked him why he did it, He said it was his “bipolar”, Apparently the charge that he got off from emboldened him to do other acts. It makes me wonder how much in control he was during the first incident.

We all have impulses and overwhelming desires when manic, I wonder how much effort we put into keep from acting on them, Instead, do some of us let it happen because it is pleasurable, irregardless of the consequence, which are then much easier to ignore? I wonder how much this relates to the insanity defense that people with BP use.

As a side note, when I was married, I was in a terrible relationship with my wife. One day I was hypersexual, It was very very tempting to pursue sexual pleasure with someone else. It was difficult, but I did not, I could of easily cheated on my wife, and have a ready made excuse to myself.

Successfully asserting an insanity defense in the US today is extremely difficult do do and extremely unlikely. Only about 1/3 of a percent of those who try to do this succeed, looking at those states that still permit it.


Because of the massive overall education deficit in America, so very many totally uneducated citizens, it is very, very likely that many more states will ban this type of defense. It does not fit with their overly simplified world construct and view, that all human endeavor can be neatly and instantly dropped into two convenient buckets--good and evil. American concepts from the 1800s, still very popular in many places.


European countries, where the education level is much, much, much higher are way more likely to develop a science-rooted, thoughtful, ethical, and sensible approach to this issue, in my personal opinion.


Personally, given that political polarization in the USA is getting much, much worse, not better, I think we will see a nation in which the west coast and some coastal eastern states slowly creep more toward a European model over the next decades to 100 years or so, while all others, will likely ban the defense and continue to prosecute the sh** out of all mentally ill people who are, in their eyes, just scumbags and evil and not ill at all.

Just my take.

Originally Posted by bpcyclist

Successfully asserting an insanity defense in the US today is extremely difficult do do and extremely unlikely. Only about 1/3 of a percent of those who try to do this succeed, looking at those states that still permit it.

Because of the massive overall education deficit in America, so very many totally uneducated citizens, it is very, very likely that many more states will ban this type of defense. It does not fit with their overly simplified world construct and view, that all human endeavor can be neatly and instantly dropped into two convenient buckets--good and evil. American concepts from the 1800s, still very popular in many places.

European countries, where the education level is much, much, much higher are way more likely to develop a science-rooted, thoughtful, ethical, and sensible approach to this issue, in my personal opinion.

Personally, given that political polarization in the USA is getting much, much worse, not better, I think we will see a nation in which the west coast and some coastal eastern states slowly creep more toward a European model over the next decades to 100 years or so, while all others, will likely ban the defense and continue to prosecute the sh** out of all mentally ill people who are, in their eyes, just scumbags and evil and not ill at all.

Just my take.

YES!!!!! I agree that this is exactly it. Thank you, @bpcyclist, my friend, for stating the above.

I think that one of the biggest stumbling blocks to progress is thinking you're the best already (when you're not) and having a closed mind about making things truly better (being resigned to maintain a status quo, or take steps backwards). I definitely agree that it usually does take education to realize that you don't know everything, and that there's a lot more to learn, and improve. That doesn't always have to be higher education (i.e. college or grad school), but at least an open-minded exploration of various perspectives, factors, etc.

I find it very odd that large groups of citizens that regard themselves as "holier-than-thou" are actually in favor of crueler, less loving/charitable, and less democratic policies in regards to human, animal, and nature conditions. There's a word for this. Some among them that don't intend for the harm to be done, are living in a closet of ignorance, indeed. Or, making a deal "with their devil" to get some things they want, at the expense of others. In any case, such agreements inevitably backfire in time.

[bpcyclist]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

Have there been mistakes with the insanity plea? Yes. However, it is disconcerting to read what almost sounds like arguments saying that people must always suffer full consequences for actions even if severely unwell, mentally. If they weren't the implications, I would like to be corrected.

I personally believe a lot of the problem lies with what really, in my country, simply amounts to very old thinking and legal concepts from, really, like, the 1700s or so. There is good and there is evil. If I assert that a law was broken as the DA then, it was broken, because, what I say is always the truth. Even thought it isn't. And if I say a law was broken, there will be a prosecution to the fullest possible extent of all laws. Nothing else matters because I don't care about anything else. I care about winning. Scoreboard.

The insanity defense is a "scam," according to one not especially bright Oregon prosecutor I recently read an interview with. He is just not a very bright person, sadly. And I believe here in my state that, unfortunately, there are more than a few of those.

The definition of "justice," whatever on earth that actually is, from the era in which the constitution was penned does not account for our current understanding of neuroscience and precisely how moral decision-making in the human brain actually occurs. As long as simple-minded, uninquisitive people continue to view justice the way it was looked at in 1776, we have no shot in America of evolving on this issue.