oppression of women thru absurdly thin ideals by the male-dominated-capitalist-elites

Hi All,

Just wanted to share how i am into being PHAT which stands for "Pretty Hot And Thick." I even have mugs which say this, picture attached. I feel Western men allow themselves to be brain-washed by the media, which is a tool of the Western-male-dominated-capitalist-elites ( i have a degree in Mass Communication) and allow themselves to be pawns by rejecting women of ample proportions and just feeling that absurdly thin women are pretty and sexy.

Hugs,

Jane.

Hey, whatever works for you, Princess Jane. It seems like a healthier mindset than constant stress over your appearance. I have always focused more on my health and how I feel than my appearance--not like I can see myself anyway.

Many of us gained a lot of weight during covid isolation. My gym closed. Now with the resurgence, it might not stay open. I take mile long walks with the dog, but this time of year its hot by 7am.
Moldern mediciine considers carrying a lot of extra weight a serious health threat. I have to take blood pressure and cholesterol medication. I had 2 shoulder replacements, probably not effected by weight, but I already have mild arthritis in my knees and extra weight is going to aggravate that. Knee replacements are tougher on the patient than for shoulders from what Ive heard.
My mom had ministrokes in her last decade. I want to stay as healthy for as long as I can. Women in my family live to the mid 90's. I want to stay healthy, instead of ending up ancient but plaques with a million health problems.
Yes, they should include big beautiful women on TV as well as other groups that are now constantly featured.
However, what about the health aspect? Sorry you're feeling troubled by this.

@luvyrself:

I am aware of the health risks that modern WESTERN medicine insist on of being PHAT. But modern EASTERN medicine has no such qualms. The last pdoc i saw was East Indian and she couldn't understand why i was dieting. She said, "You have a few extra pounds on, but you're not huge."

I was so delighted to hear a medical professional say that! The only way to account for WESTERN doctors' insistence that being PHAT is not healthy AS A MATTER OF GENERAL PRINCIPLE is that they are all under the spell of the WESTERN media, which is a tool the male-dominated capitalist elite uses to oppress women and make the rich richer and the poor poorer (to exacerbate economic inequality in their favor).

I believe in "Health At Every Size" (HAES). I intend to be fit and hale and hearty at every weight. I *am* dieting but my goal weight is a Rubenesque 170 pounds. I don't intend on being a tiny white woman and if WESTERN men don't like it they can go eff themselves!!!

I am glad your bowl-of-apples trick is working for you. That's a great idea! I like Granny Smith. What kind do you like? I'm sorry you're missing your water aerobics, i know you're really keen on that. I went swimming yesterday and LOVED IT!!! The buoyancy is so much fun! I'm "Scoop"-ing for balance and fitness, a lateral recumbent bicycle, check it out, it's fantastic!!!

Nice to hear from you!

Hugs,

Sweet Jane.



NOTE TO THE MODS:

WHEN I SAY "WESTERN" AND "EASTERN" WORLDS I AM ***NOT*** REFERRING TO RELIGION BUT TO GEOGRAPHICAL AREAS.

SURELY YOU CAN'T OBJECT TO ***GEOGRAPHY***???

i think it is important to do what makes us happy as long as we don't hurt other people in the process or anyway else. i agree with the other wise and wonderful posters that health is important though. i personally prefer to stay thin myself although i am male so that may be different for me. Sending many Safe, warm hugs to BOTH you, @whatever2013, your Family, your Friends and ALL of your Loved Ones! Keep fighting and keep rocking NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, OK?!

Thought I'd tell you that I thought about you and this thread, a few minutes ago. I didn't respond here before because I think you were a bit unfair assigning ALL the blame on men and your perceived notion of THEIR ideals about womens' weight. I still think you shouldn't give women a total green card for their parts in this issue. However, I watched a Neiman Marcus commercial today to only feel a bit shocked at how unhealthy the very underweight models appeared to be. As someone here wrote that being overweight does have its negatives, health-wise, so does being very underweight, in many cases. I suppose what I'm saying is that I see it fine to represent ALL women equally. Larger gals, super slim ones, but definitely ones who represent "the average", too, who too often are portrayed as "large or Plus-size".

Truth is, the average weight (in pounds) of an American woman is more in the high 160s to 170s. This is average among all heights and builds. I've also read, many times, that when a man is asked what "size" looks ideal to them, it is a size well above the clearly very underweight models that often appear in fashion commercials. Chances are, many of those models I saw in the Neiman Marcus commerical were quite tall, and likely striving for a weight below a normal BMI.

I sent an electronic contact message to Neiman Marcus drawing their attention to the above. Like you, I don't appreciate that the varied shapes and looks of people - the world's people - is misrepresented. Even the models barely smiled. Not that all should/need to smile, but smiling should also be represented.

I am so happy that you recognize your beauty. Of course you're beautiful! I feel beautiful at my "slightly bigger than the average woman (see above for "average woman") size. For people who are naturally underweight - naturally or because of illness - they are beautiful, too. However, those out there that can never love themselves, or acknowledge their own beauty, they need help. The help is not so much to change appearance, but to change mind-frame. Allow one to free themselves and not be a perpetual "victim". In fact, way too often people victimize themselves a bit too much. That is hard change, though, I know. Just as we here struggle with bipolar disorder, there are so many other types of mental distortions and other psych challenges to fight.

Something to take into account with regard to models is that most of them are young. As in, teens. Often as young as 14, just dressed to look older than that. Heck, when I was a teen I weighed 102lbs (5'6") and couldn't gain, even though I tried.

Maybe they should let all of the 14 year olds spend more time in middle-school rather than prancing around wearing women's clothes in front of a camera. Clothes meant for 30 to 50 year olds.

At 14 I weighed 105 lbs, too, at 5'6", though I was taking 8 intensive advanced dance classes per week, and auditioning for the School of American Ballet in NYC. I remember the gym teacher at school commenting how "light-weight" I was. Honestly, most all of the other girls were heavier than me, and I didn't regard many of them as being "heavy".

There is no way on earth I could be 105 lbs again and not be in health crisis. Even at 138, I would look mighty skinny (in a bad way), nowadays. Weights don't always tell the accurate story. Looking at the models in the commercial I saw, who looked "unwell", speaks for itself. I didn't look unwell at 14, but the models (regardless of age) did not look well. Again, if they were mixed with various build females, it wouldn't have looked so deliberate that they be clearly underweight in order to represent the company's marketing focus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soupe du jour Maybe they should let all of the 14 year olds spend more time in middle-school rather than prancing around wearing women's clothes in front of a camera. Clothes meant for 30 to 50 year olds. At 14 I weighed 105 lbs, too, at 5'6", though I was taking 8 intensive advanced dance classes per week, and auditioning for the School of American Ballet in NYC. I remember the gym teacher at school commenting how "light-weight" I was. Honestly, most all of the other girls were heavier than me, and I didn't regard many of them as being "heavy". There is no way on earth I could be 105 lbs again and not be in health crisis. Even at 138, I would look mighty skinny (in a bad way), nowadays. Weights don't always tell the accurate story. Looking at the models in the commercial I saw, who looked "unwell", speaks for itself. I didn't look unwell at 14, but the models (regardless of age) did not look well. Again, if they were mixed with various build females, it wouldn't have looked so deliberate that they be clearly underweight in order to represent the company's marketing focus.

For some reason your post made me think of an excellent autobiography I read a while back. It's written by Gelsey Kirkland and is called Dancing on My Grave. If you haven't already read it, you might check it out. I have a feeling you'd relate to it. I sure did.
Gelsey Kirkland - Wikipedia

I hadn't heard of her book, but I do know that ballerina. She was a fellow principal/soloist dancer with my ballet teacher, Gloria Govrin, under Balanchine. I'll browse the book online. Thanks! I recall seeing her dance in a televised version of the Nutcracker.

You know, though obviously my ballet teacher was trim, when she danced, she wasn't unwell-looking. See her picture at Arthur Mitchell and Gloria Govrin | Smithsonian Institution

@Soupe du Jour:

Yes, you're quite right Soupe, in pointing out that sometimes WOMEN who have been brain-washed by the media which is a tool of the male-dominated capitalist elites, sometimes WOMEN oppress THEMSELVES.

I have been careful in my posts to be clear that i celebrate ALL sizes. "People come in all shapes and sizes," my mom used to tell me as a child. Wise words. I support HAES "Health At Every Size."

You can't tell how physically fit someone is just by looking at them. There are "skinny-fat" people who are unhealthy just as there are fat people who are uber-active and very healthy. Health is a lifestyle, not an ornament.

I'm unsure what my fatness is due to. Could be meds, could be binge eating, but i will find out in the near future when i get into see a specialist for an assessment and as i continue to taper off my meds.

I'm quitting dieting for now. It's just causing MORE problems. Before this last diet a 200g bag of chips would last me for three days. Now i pound it all all back in one sitting. Dieting is not recommended for binge-eaters and now i know why.

Anyways, i had on an exquisite Eastern ensemble yesterday and i got compliment after compliment, one Eastern man just calling one out as i sat on a bench in the mall.

I look good, i feel good. That's what matters.

Hugs,

Sweet Jane.

Everyone should feel comfortable with their bodies. I do think these 5'11 110lb women are way too thin. For me im 5'4 110 and thats right for me.

If you go by the media, there are unrealistic ideals for men as well. It's equally impossible for most men to look like male models. But as mentioned before, many people don't share the ideals portrayed in the media, they have more realistic expectations. I don't think this has anything to do with oppression. These media exist because people consume them, voluntarily. If you don't agree with it, you can always do as I do, just don't consume these media. If other people do, then that's their problem IMHO, nothing you or I can do about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soupe du jour I hadn't heard of her book, but I do know that ballerina. She was a fellow principal/soloist dancer with my ballet teacher, Gloria Govrin, under Balanchine. I'll browse the book online. Thanks! I recall seeing her dance in a televised version of the Nutcracker. You know, though obviously my ballet teacher was trim, when she danced, she wasn't unwell-looking. See her picture at Arthur Mitchell and Gloria Govrin | Smithsonian Institution

No, not too thin at all...she's lovely.


Gelsey Kirkland discusses her eating disorder and how the dance world encourages it. When I was deeply into ballet, no one actually said anything about it, but I took it upon myself to keep my weight way down. I was fitting into children's clothes, for pete's sake. When I look at photos now I'm shocked at how I couldn't see how thin I was. I have a suspicion that I gained so much from Seroquel in part because my metabolism was already screwed up.

I do not know how I found myself on this old thread. I was trying to update my recent thread which I started in May of this year and my phone took me to this. But since I did scan the first three posts:

It is very funny that a woman aspiring to be Rubenesque berates Western men and capitalism as Rubens was himself a European man and a highly successful one. He lived before the peak of modern capitalism but he clearly benefited commercially from his success.

Also, I do not know what OP''s height is but in general 170 lbs is a fine weight and is below the weight of a typical Rubenesque beauty.

I do love love love Rubens, but I love Botticelli's beauties even more. This is not due to them being thinner but because I love their faces more. And hair. Bodies are not everything. But while their thinner bodies are very graceful and dynamic, they are not railthin. You simply do not find a lot of bodies similar to the thinnest of thin fashion models end of last century styke in classical western art. Yes, including that Western art created by white men during the period of peak of capitalism.

My 172 cm tall aunt who herself has a very small waist, ample hips and medium sized breasts explained it to me when I was a teen: it is much easier to demo clothes on hangers than on a real body with its curvature. On hangers, nothing takes away from the appeal of clothes themselves. It is about clothes and not their wearer. I can also add now, having lived a few decades since: it is much easier to design, cut and sew clothes if you do not have to adapt to curvature. There is also the issue of standardization. Bodies, even average bodies in the thick of the bell curve, differ widely. Buy tall thin models are standard shapes. So designers can make their clothes without worrying that the clothes won't fit the idiosyncratic shapes of whoever happens to walk the podium. It is far easier. It may not be representative but it is very simple.

Maybe my aunt's compelling explanation, maybe other factors, but I have never wanted to be model thin and was happy with a medium height medium frame body. Then I gained a lot of weight on psychiatric medications and later was able to shed some of it though definitely not all. Shedding that weight and exercising led to the resolution of severe steatosis (non-alcoholic fatty liver disease). How is that not improving health? Also my lipids improved.

HAES adepts love saying that you cannot tell if a person is fit and healthy by how they look. This is not entirely correct. Many severely obese people have shortness of breath which is plainly visible (and audible). It is obvious when you look at them and hear them breathe that they are at an increased risk of cardiovascular adverse events. You do not need labs or a professional degree in health to make that assessment. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I have been inpatient on psych units with women suffering from anorexia nervous and on tube feeding and they had yellowish complexion and clearly unhealthy looking flaking skin and dull hair. What is true is that when you look at an *average* person, you do not know if that person is fit. Fitness also comes in different forms. I prefer the look of more strength and more musculature in men but not too much, but there are endurance athletes who are not muscular at all but, say, participate in long cycling competitions. They are fit alongside a different axis. I know one such young man - he so lacks muscle that I thought he was sedentary until I saw him in full cycling gear and he told me he would spend a *whole weekend* racing. So my hat was off but in terms of personal asthetic preferences, I still do not like the look of those long muscle fibers of endurance athletes. So there is fitness and fitness, different types of fitness. And only tangentially related: I have known women who are zaftig but very flexible. You do not have to have the body of a modern ballerina to be flexible. And, speaking of ballerinas, ballerinas of the past were not so thin. That was at the peak of industrial revolution and that did not prevent them from being adored by rich men in Europe, including royalty. So much so for the alleged blame Western men supposedly bear for the proliferation of the ueber thin model type.

***

There have recently been reports that several women influencers who agitated for HAES and denied even the connection with diabetes have simply *died young*. No, they did not weigh perfectly reasonable 170 lbs, nor were they a little zaftig - they were morbidly obese.

There are health benefits to being heavy: you end up engaging in constant weight-bearing exercise which strengthens the bones. I happen to have bone density in the 90th percentile and I believe it is partially due to having carried extra weight (I am doing strength training but I did not start that early enough to have that make such a huge positive contribution). Of course I also consume a whole lot of bioavailable calcium from the diet which helps bone density. My podiatrist says that being overweight helps bone density and that many body shapes are just fine as long as your labs are fine and you are not sedentary. He is a white male practicing the kind of medicine that the OP would dub Western at a not-for-profit clinic in Silicon Valley. He told me that his daughter is overweight. I do not know to what extent being a loving father to a chubby daughter colors how he advises his patients, but I do trust him when he says that he sees a lot of thin patients in his practice with injuries which is why he dismisses the notion that by default orthopedic problems are due to extra weight. He is a highly respected clinician, both by patients and colleagues, and he speaks based on the vast data he sees: thin people injur themselves.

Regarding the supposed vast divide between East and West, the world is actually quite big, not dichotomous, and the actually situation is enormously more complicated than this reductionist and stereotyping assertion. I grew up next to a large population of students from the African continent and observed, from an early age, an absolutely dazzling variety in their facial features and body types. I think I also learned in school that both the *shortest* and the *tallest* people by stature live in Africa. Africa is not homogenous. And even though these days, it is runners from Kenya who travel to the US and take top prizes in running competitions, it is also in Africa that there are teenage girls who are being sent by their parents to force-feeding camps because fat young women are more valued on the marriage market in some locations.

In Asia there is also a stunning variety and there are, mentioning just the two biggest countries for brevity, both slender Chinese women and the occasionally full figured women from India (those who are not malnourished and malnourishment is still rampant in that overall still poor country).

Going to find now the actual thread I was trying to to update...

Oops, I see now that Jane, the OP, now shows up as Anonymous, so she must have left the boards and won't be able to see and respond. Oh well.

And this is in... Bipolar forum? I was in the middle of updating my thread in the Women's forum and was redirected to this thread and it is not even in the same forum? But how weird is that?