[sinoram]

Hi All,
I have been running around for correct diagnosis for a family member of mine.
She a lower IQ around 75, so one doctor says that BPD people have higher IQ's so it can't be BPD and its more towards Bipolar. Another doctor has been saying that IQ has no link with BPD and he takes it more as BPD.

I need some inputs on this.

[MDDBPDPTSD]

Hmm. Well, most of the BPDs I have met have been on the higher end of intelligence, but I guess that does not mean that all of us are. She could be BPD. Does she have the extreme highs and lows of a bi-polar? Or the extreme fear of rejection fo a Borderline?

[ECHOES]

From what I read, there is no evidence of BPD's having higher IQ.

It does affect the treatment, though, as some treatments require the patient to be able to be introspective and someone with a low IQ would not be able to do that.

[Tourniquet]

BDP people have higher IQ's? Oh cool, so I am a smarty pants! I too haven't heard anything about IQ's being related to personality disorders but then again BPD is one of the most mysterious and least understood of all the disorders so I wouldn't discount this as a possiblity.

[Direction]

I would think that if you or the doctor can see symptoms from bp and/or bpd that this would be sufficient to call one or the other or both...I'm not really sure where the high IQ comes into play.

Personal self- assessment.....I am borderline...I find my self to be both a complete moron,and rather intelligent...it's a crap shoot really....nonetheless:

I posted this @ yahoo! answers Ask July 2nd 2011

Your Question
Statistical studies of borderline personality disorder and intelligence...are there any?
I have an opinion that people with borderline personality disorder tend to have a high level of intelligence.Not always book knowledge,but,intellectual/perceptive,and… deeper thinking nonetheless.Are there statistical papers,or research studies which support this or cancel it ,based on a long term or in depth observation by reputable research?

Lets see what responses come from within that forum.I really doubt that this would actually be a proper forum within which to ask.I think borderline classification and their childhood causes more of a hyper-awareness,I honestly haven't a clue whether B.P.D individuals are more 'intelligent' per se...but,frankly,I have yet to meet a B.P.D idiot.I have met some BPD individuals which contained some personality traits which severely limited their ability to be mindful or focused on being insightful enough to progress or ...I prefer the word 'evolve' ...(on many levels),but I feel this is related to base personality traits ...trait-variabilities that we all possess,whether or not one has B.P.D.

I enjoy that the question has been posed,but,I honestly don't think that my feelings on the matter would be influenced by anything aside from reputable studies.Certainly not by 'opinion'.

Appreciate any contribution.

On a side note: The concept and definition of intelligence;jmo,is relative and varied...isn't it?

May be a simple...'complete moron'.I can't find my post there.Idk whatever I didn't do correctly.Wolves <---hate brain damage.....

[ChristineEsq]

Although I have never come across a study directly on point, one could deduce that borderlines are, on average, highly intelligent individuals from related empirical evidence. For example, borderlines have been shown to be "logical" and "highly perceptive" individuals. Both of these traits factor into a person's IQ. (I myself have been diagnosed with BPD and bipolar II and my last-tested IQ score was 157.) Studies have also shown that, in the overwhelming majority of cases involving a sexual relationship between therapist and patient, the patient had been diagnosed with BPD. This has been attributed to the intelligence level of borderlines (as a theory), along with charisma, seductiveness, physical attractiveness and general high functioning.

The trouble with the generalization, however, is that BPD comes in far too many forms to responsibly rule out BPD based on any one factor alone. To illustrate, the most recent therapist I saw "undiagnosed" me with BPD based on my maintaining "too many" stable relationships. The psychiatrist I saw the same day likewise dismissed the diagnosis because I was "too nice." She added that a borderline would also not be likely to attempt suicide (as I recently done) without giving anyone advance warning. All of these assumptions are the sad result of an epidemic of overgeneralizing and stigmatizing borderlines. I may not fit the profile perfectly, but the diagnosis is legitimate - the same could be true of your family member.

My advice would be to get your relative to a more open-minded and informed clinician so that you don't have to worry about him/her receiving poor treatment based on an incorrect diagnosis.

That's just my two cents though. I do hope everything works out okay for you and your relative.

[rainbow8]

I agree with you, Christine, that there are many variations of BPD and it would be difficult to generalize on intelligence or anything else. I think I read that there are over 400 different combinations of symptoms. I don't know why the media focuses on only one kind of BPD. Well, I do know. It sells newspapers! I am also "nice" and have stable relationships, never cut, and was never promiscuous. I'm a quiet borderline.

Originally Posted by ChristineEsq

Although I have never come across a study directly on point, one could deduce that borderlines are, on average, highly intelligent individuals from related empirical evidence. For example, borderlines have been shown to be "logical" and "highly perceptive" individuals. Both of these traits factor into a person's IQ. (I myself have been diagnosed with BPD and bipolar II and my last-tested IQ score was 157.) Studies have also shown that, in the overwhelming majority of cases involving a sexual relationship between therapist and patient, the patient had been diagnosed with BPD. This has been attributed to the intelligence level of borderlines (as a theory), along with charisma, seductiveness, physical attractiveness and general high functioning.

The trouble with the generalization, however, is that BPD comes in far too many forms to responsibly rule out BPD based on any one factor alone. To illustrate, the most recent therapist I saw "undiagnosed" me with BPD based on my maintaining "too many" stable relationships. The psychiatrist I saw the same day likewise dismissed the diagnosis because I was "too nice." She added that a borderline would also not be likely to attempt suicide (as I recently done) without giving anyone advance warning. All of these assumptions are the sad result of an epidemic of overgeneralizing and stigmatizing borderlines. I may not fit the profile perfectly, but the diagnosis is legitimate - the same could be true of your family member.

My advice would be to get your relative to a more open-minded and informed clinician so that you don't have to worry about him/her receiving poor treatment based on an incorrect diagnosis.

That's just my two cents though. I do hope everything works out okay for you and your relative.

The BPD Diagnosis is in flux. My psychiatrist of four years told me I that she didn't see the BPD when I told her this is what I have.

But- she said "you would probably know." If the individual reads the criteria and says "OMG this is ME." Well, then they have it.

I've never heard any correlation between high intelligence and BPD. In fact, having BPD lowers one's cognitive processing skills:

-Lower attention spans
-An ability to see areas of gray in order to form full picture analysis.

The DSM is constantly being updated. What is printed in the DSM-IV TR is being questioned right now.

If you feel you have BPD do yourself a big favor. Look not at the title but at the symptoms then do everything you can to help alleviate them.

[palemoss]

I think i'm pretty smart. Hehe

[protector1973]

definitley above average intelligence. it has ruined my life , unlike america, in england we are 20 years behind america when it comes to getting threapy.silent sufferer. maybe if i find some help from a T. i will be able to use this extra intelligence to make some money.

[crazycanbegood]

Originally Posted by palemoss

I think i'm pretty smart. Hehe

I'm very smart too. Yup.

[Flooded]

I'm incredibly perceptive and somewhat brilliant at certain things

annnd then I wake up...

[Forgive77]

I'm BPD. BPII, with obsessive thoughts. I'm a moron. LOL I was in the third quarter of my class in high school, and I couldn't finish nursing school because it was too stressful. I also flunked chemistry 3 times. I don't think I would score high in an IQ test at all.

[lv99atheist]

I can't vouch for IQ personally (whatever that is... we can argue the validity of IQ testing if you like.) All I know is that I consider myself above average intelligence in many aspects, but rock bottom stupid in others. I'm no quantum physicist but I articulate well. I've been told I'm insightful. I have a good idea what I want out of life, but I don't know how to go about getting it. I was awful at school because I was really bored. I loved art but hated algebra (mostly because I hated my teacher; I love algebra now!) I love learning but hate studying, if that makes sense. I aced most of my Psychology courses in college yet haven't finished my degree. I completely and utterly fail at relationships. I guess it depends on what your criteria are for how you define "intelligence." Smart people do stupid things sometimes, and idiots will sometimes do really smart things.

[Forgive77]

Originally Posted by lv99atheist

I can't vouch for IQ personally (whatever that is... we can argue the validity of IQ testing if you like.) All I know is that I consider myself above average intelligence in many aspects, but rock bottom stupid in others. I'm no quantum physicist but I articulate well. I've been told I'm insightful. I have a good idea what I want out of life, but I don't know how to go about getting it. I was awful at school because I was really bored. I loved art but hated algebra (mostly because I hated my teacher; I love algebra now!) I love learning but hate studying, if that makes sense. I aced most of my Psychology courses in college yet haven't finished my degree. I completely and utterly fail at relationships. I guess it depends on what your criteria are for how you define "intelligence." Smart people do stupid things sometimes, and idiots will sometimes do really smart things.

Ah ha!!! Maybe I'm a genius after all. I used to get 98,99, and 100 in psychology...did I fall into it..no....I want to go to nursing school. fail fail fail....I guess it would have been really genius if I got the picture like 10 - 15 years ago. Now I'll just have to wait. I relate to every word you said. Every one of them.

[lv99atheist]

Originally Posted by Forgive77

Ah ha!!! Maybe I'm a genius after all. I used to get 98,99, and 100 in psychology...did I fall into it..no....I want to go to nursing school. fail fail fail....I guess it would have been really genius if I got the picture like 10 - 15 years ago. Now I'll just have to wait. I relate to every word you said. Every one of them.

Well, as I said on my blog yesterday (this morning? I lose track of time...)

I liked studying abnormal psychology so much I became a client.

I don't know, maybe formal education isn't for some people. Didn't Bill Gates drop out of university? I know at least a few people who are really intelligent but really stink at school. Frankly, I'm surprised they let me graduate high school without holding me back. I failed bottom-level Biology and barely made the Science requirements. I adored my Art classes, though, and excelled at English and Spelling.

I'm really glad you could relate. It's always good to know there are people out there who really get it. -K

[Starvin4Perfection]

Originally Posted by sinoram

Hi All,
I have been running around for correct diagnosis for a family member of mine.
She a lower IQ around 75, so one doctor says that BPD people have higher IQ's so it can't be BPD and its more towards Bipolar. Another doctor has been saying that IQ has no link with BPD and he takes it more as BPD.

I need some inputs on this.

Um, I haven't personally heard that you can't be diagnosed as BPD if you have a lower IQ, but I do know that there is a link between higher IQ and psych. disorders. Albert Einstein was diagnosed with ADHD. My uncle was BPI and his IQ was 168; he was a psychologist. My dad is BPII and his IQ is 143. I'm BPD and my IQ is 151; also studying to be a therapist. I dunno if that helped at all, but something to ponder over.