[coolhair]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, as there seems to be considerable overlap between BPD and schizophrenia. What would you say the similarities and differences are?

[Luvmydog]

I honestly don't know, but I do know that when I took the sanity test, I scored very high for BPD, but very low for schizophrenia. That was with an overall sanity score of 169. Pretty high score, but negligible amount of schizophrenia tilt.

[UnderTheRose]

i havent heard myself of a correlation between the two, though i have heard of a cross over between bipolar/schizo

[coolhair]

I'll explain what I mean. For instance, both can have paranoia, hallucinations, and the changes in mood. Perhaps in schizophrenia there is a common theme to the delusions and hallucinations? They just seem pretty similar to me.

[UnderTheRose]

Aren't those more symptoms of bipolar? (hoping that hallucinations don't start up)

[Laina M.]

Hope you don't mind, I saw this and answered it over in the schizophrenia/psychosis forum first! I'm just going to copy-paste because it's the same question:

BPD is often referred to as being very close in symptoms (with a different core) to bipolar, maybe that's what you're thinking of? Also, there are some symptoms of BPD that can be similar to the kind of thought distortion schizophrenia often presents with, but with BPD they're usually triggered by events, especially ones to do with personal relationships. It also seems pretty common for people with BPD to also be diagnosed with psychosis, but BPD alone is not a psychotic disorder.

Impaired Perception and Reasoning
People with borderline disorder often say that they have difficulty with their memory, especially under stress. You may misperceive experiences, expecting the worst from others, even when nothing nothing negative is intended. You may have difficulty with your concentration,, and with organizing your thoughts and behaviours. You may not be able to think a complex problem through adequately and determine reasonable alternatives, and the consequences of these alternatives. Although these problems are not listed as such in the diagnostic criteria for borderline disorder, they have been shown to be present in people with the disorder through careful neuropsychological testing, and they constitute important features of the disorder.

Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified: An Essential Guide for Understanding and Living with BPD, Robert O. Friedel, MD

He goes on to list several specific symptoms: brief episodes of paranoid thinking, dissociative symptoms, magical thinking, depersonalization, and unstable self-image or sense of self. At another point, he does clarify that "it now seems clear that borderline disorder is not related to schizophrenic disorders."

(As an aside, I really recommend this book, it's written by a professional with lots of experience and it's well researched! There are a lot of junky pop-science books out there on BPD that aren't written by professionals (How To Stop Walking On Eggshells for one!) or that are written by professionals who don't really know much about BPD. Friedel is great, and he talks about a lot of the uncertainty in the diagnosis and the ongoing research.)

Personally, as someone with BPD and psychosis, I feel like they intertwine a lot. The worse psychotic episodes I had were almost always triggered by my BPD, and the kind of paranoia I get over people and relationships and things like that feels basically psychotic to me, it's that overwhelming and "real". A lot of the cognitive problems I had I'm still not sure if they were due to psychosis or BPD (or possibly Bipolar since we're still not sure if that's a possibility). Even though the definition has changed, I can see why it was originally named "borderline" as in the border between neurosis and psychosis. But schizophrenia as a diagnosis is a lot more complicated than just psychosis, and sometimes it doesn't even include what we typically consider psychosis, like catatonic schizophrenia. I wouldn't say BPD has much in common with schizophrenia.

Anyway, mental illness is basically categorized as symptom clusters and there's a lot of overlap between many different mental illnesses. It's also complicated because many people, especially people with chronic and severe mental illness, have comorbid disorders!

I don't see a lot of correlation between schizophrenia and bpd. The only other illness I've seen get mixed up with bpd regularly would be bipolar as many of the traits do actually overlap.

What traits did you find overlap between schizophrenia and bpd? I'm just curious.

[The_little_didgee]

I can see how a layperson would get the two conditions confused.

The history of the condition is part of the problem. It was once considered to be on the boundary of neurosis and psychosis so BPD was often diagnosed as mild schizophrenia. Susanna Kaysen the author of Girl, Interrupted was.

Dissociation a common symptom of BPD is often mistaken for psychosis, especially when paranoia and hallucinations are present. Psychiatrists often have a difficult time determining the difference between the two.

Since many with BPD have histories of abuse the hallucinations and dissociation may actually be a consequence of PTSD, which can easily be mistaken as psychosis.

[Keval]

Google:
Royal College of Physicians - Bordeline Personality Disorder

The above link is a document explaining BPD and briefly the difference between this and schizoprenia. The hallucination are fleeting experiences lasting only for a brief period of time, as is with most symptoms of BPD. Generally speaking the Hallucinations come from within the head with BPD and are not usually the typical 3rd person commentary. They also present during times of severe emotional instability.

Have a read

[shortandcute]

....the whole thing just gives me a head ache.....................

Originally Posted by coolhair

I'll explain what I mean. For instance, both can have paranoia, hallucinations, and the changes in mood. Perhaps in schizophrenia there is a common theme to the delusions and hallucinations? They just seem pretty similar to me.

I haven't heard of the hallucinatory part as being a trait of bpd

BPD: (DSM IV)

1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called "splitting."
3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
7. Chronic feelings of emptiness.
8. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

Schizophrenia Criteria: (DSM IV)

two or more of the following:

1. Delusions
2. Hallucinations
3. Disorganized Speech
4. Grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
5. Negative symptoms; ie affective flattening,alogia, or avolition

Not sure I see the similarities.

[Edda]

Ok, well, I do have hallucinations. It is fairly intimate stuff.

I also have a "presence" with me.

It is not constant - I get this stuff when my life tumbles down around be.

Originally Posted by Edda

Ok, well, I do have hallucinations. It is fairly intimate stuff.

I also have a "presence" with me.

It is not constant - I get this stuff when my life tumbles down around be.

Yeah you're not the first one to say that but I'm only saying related to the description of schizophrenia vs bpd they are different in my mind, but that doesn't rule out that people can and do have hallucinations too. Could be a co-existing condition though.

[shortandcute]

...lots of stuff to consider....

[IndieVisible]

I think part of the confusion lies with people who have BPD and some schizo in them too. You can be one disorder but also share "some" of the traits of another. No two people are exactly the same.

Originally Posted by IndieVisible

I think part of the confusion lies with people who have BPD and some schizo in them too. You can be one disorder but also share "some" of the traits of another. No two people are exactly the same.

It's not confusing, it means they probably have more than one dx.

[IndieVisible]

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

It's not confusing, it means they probably have more than one dx.

It's not confusing for me or may be you, but it's confusing for some people because they think the traits they share from another disorder are part of their main disorder. Also you do NOT have to be diagnosed with more then one disorder to have some of the traits of another.