How?

Anyone else feel overwhelming despair, distress, and desperation when therapists talk about loving, valuing, and validating the self and how you can't need or look to anyone? How people aren't supposed to affect you so much or be so important? How do you do that when you don't have those foundational pieces?

Hi there, I have felt this way in the past, when I still believed in therapy. I have given up on therapy long since.

To be honest, no therapist in this world can teach you how to build those foundational pieces that you mentioned. You have to learn them yourself, usually through hard life experience.

If I may, let me share my own experience with you, in the hopes that you get something out of it.

Basically, in my life, people have mistreated me, abused me, neglected me, disappointed me, SO MUCH, and SO MANY TIMES OVER, that, in the end, I realized, for myself, that I cannot rely on ANYONE for ANYTHING. As a result, I trust no one, and am self-sufficient.

It also helped, of course, that I've always been a loner. So, I learned to take care of myself.

Through this experience, through getting hurt over and over and over again, the idea was finally reinforced in my brain, that people cannot be relied on.

As a result, I learned to love myself, because I had no choice ... there's no one else. I learned to validate myself ... who the hell else will ? I take care of myself ... who the hell else will ?

Today, I'm desperately sick and can barely walk from one room to another. The house still needs to be cleaned, the chores still need to be done ... by me. Who the hell else will ?

To summarize, I learned the importance of my self through the bitter experience of being consistently and inevitably let down by every single person I have met in my life, ESPECIALLY my parents. That's how I learned those foundational pieces.

I see no better way to learn. I would love for someone to prove me wrong.

Hi kamikazebaby, I'd say try a different therapist there!!
To me, that sounds like they're shooting for a perceived idealism to a point, there. Sometimes people might make that goal, but other times people (anyone!!) can only make elements of that, but that can still be OK!! In fact that can still be way more than OK!!
IMO you can still have real meaning, real significance, real personal "togetherness" without ALL those elements.
And I'd say there are quite a few stepping stones missing there too e.g. self compassion (and that doesn't necessarily have to be TOTAL self compassion if you're struggling with it), self care...............
And valuing yourself..........well that can be in stages. If you can just start by finding some things/aspects that you can value in yourself...........and believe me they will be there somewhere!!
If you can just start to like parts about yourself/in who you are. And you know, that might just have you, or lead to you, valuing yourself.
And the not needing or looking to anyone.........well you could try that in gradual stages too e.g. working on the "emotional strength", the "self sufficiency".........which you could do with a good T (and with us!! ).
But you know, I'd say that most people are going to need someone, at some time/s.........whether that's encouragement, reassurance, support........whether that's a comment, a text, a hug, a smile, a site like this ......whatever. That can be part of being human.
And self love............it's seriously not "everyone" who can say that they can feel that!!!
So perhaps what I'm saying is.......maybe set some of your own standards (and terminology!!) for now on what might help you feel a little better or more fulfilled........something to work with/towards..........sure focus in on some of those aspects e.g. self valuing, "emotional strength" but give yourself time, and some ways to work towards those things.
And do not think you're failing if you aren't "ticking all those boxes"!!! IMO you don't have to "tick" them all!!!

Alison

I am so sorry that you have been through so much and that there is no one to help you.

When I was younger, I didn't rely on, need, or love anyone. I knew I couldn't. Then I somehow allowed myself to slip and and started believing maybe I could, maybe I had been wrong, I just had to find the right person/people! After lots of grief, damage, disappointment, etc, I'm now reverting back to my starting position and cursing my stupidity.

These therapists confuse me, as well as their expectations. I don't know how they expect such a leap when they can't even clearly tell me how to get from one point to the other.

This is what they allll say. I am on therapist #...10. I think.

YES! Yes, that's exactly what it is. This sort of ideal healthy state they have in mind, a one-size-fits-all. I feel I am not going to be able to love myself that way.

Self-compassion is tough. I'm really hard on myself. I feel guilty for feeling sad for myself when there are other people who have endured worse than I have. It's like I'm insulting them with feeling or even acknowledging my own pain and damage. I feel especially disgusted with myself at those times, weak and pathetic. Self-care I struggle with, too, because I don't care about myself enough for that.

I can list positive/worthwhile traits, but I can't feel it, you know?

Finding a good therapist is like mission impossible. It's funny, I always thought emotional strength was the ability to take a lot of damage and still keep going! (I don't like being human, I feel like I don't belong to/with humanity anyway.)

Maybe I'll just keep hiding in my little hole here. (The new therapist I may stick with that I saw yesterday says I mustn't isolate myself, but...) The ways to work towards those things - how do I give myself those? It seems that no therapist can tell me those things.

Thank you for the encouragement.

You seem like a gentle soul to me. Can I ask how old you are, what you do, etc ? Sorry, just trying to get a bigger picture of your situation. No need to share if you're not comfortable.

I realize that I came off as very negative in my previous response. It's because I'm having a bad week. I apologize for painting a biased picture.

Yes, I wanted to point out that the path to learning to love yourself is very hard and involves a LOT of suffering, ... and it really does, as you know.

However, if and when you do get to learn about yourself ... who you are, what your strengths and weaknesses are, what's important to you and what you can do without, who are the kinds of people you would (ideally) like to have in your life and who are the kinds you couldn't care less about ... if you get to that stage, I promise you, it is one of the most rewarding feelings and experiences life can offer any human being. You can then begin to live.

I think what really needs to happen is change:
- What are some things you want but don't have ? Which of those things are attainable ? What can you do to head in that direction ? Example - I want to become a fitness trainer. Ok, I need to learn nutrition, biomechanics, and anatomy. I've always been good at science, and I love to exercise. I think I can do it. I don't have the money, but can I get a loan ?
- What are some self-destructive behaviors that are dragging you down and keeping you down ? What can you do to stop those behaviors ? Example - I have terrible road rage. I need to remind myself that getting back at assholes on the road is not worth my time or the impact on my mood, and it's dangerous. Then, remind yourself everytime a situation occurs. Over time, master the coping strategy. One by one, eliminate these destructive behaviors.
- What are some positive constructive things you can do to enhance or simplify your life ? Examples - better time management ? Smiling at people more ? I'd like my home to be better organized, and I spend too much on junk food, I should cut down.
- You want more people in your life. Can you join a book club ? How about a meetup.com group ? Find a way to meet people. You don't need to let them in like you have in the past. Keep them at a distance, but just practice your people skills ! The only way you're gonna get better at this one is by going out there and actually doing it !

These are just examples, but the point is ... C.H.A.N.G.E. God, it's SO powerful ! Start small, but start somewhere. See where it takes you !

It's better to try and fail than to do nothing at all, yeah ?

The very best wishes to you

Some of the tough questions I have asked myself, along the tough path to enlightenment, are:
- Remember that 13 yr old boy who never had a childhood ? Is it his fault that he was harassed and bullied and alienated and left alone ? Does he deserve your hatred on top of everything he's been through ?
- Remember that 13 yr old boy who has never been loved ? If you abandon him today, who will be left to take care of him ?
- Remember that 13 yr old boy inside ? What is he but an innocent child of God ? And, if so, why do you want to punish him ?

What I'm trying to convey to you is that it will take a lot of contemplation and reflection for you to attain this enlightenment that I speak of. Only then will you know IN YOUR BONES ... WHO YOU ARE, WHAT YOU'RE MADE OF, AND WHAT YOU'RE WORTH. No therapist or quack in this world can teach you that. Please don't waste all your hope on quacks. You are a LOT more capable of helping yourself than they ever will be.

Yeah, I understand what you are saying.

I get this way when I'm not in a good place.

Not a good place to be in when you feel that way but yes just wanted to say I relate.

Hi kamikazebaby,
Self-compassion is tough. I'm really hard on myself. I feel guilty for feeling sad for myself when there are other people who have endured worse than I have. It's like I'm insulting them with feeling or even acknowledging my own pain and damage. I feel especially disgusted with myself at those times, weak and pathetic.
Yes, that can be hard, especially if you're feeling in yourself that you don't deserve it
But just because other people may have endured "worse", doesn't mean that you don't have a right to be sad, to hurt too..........in fact you don't even have to have a right to be sad, to hurt........it is what it is. And everyone's sadness, everyone's pain whatever that is matters including yours. It's real, it matters!!And I doubt you'd be "looking down" on someone because they were sad/hurting, right??
And as for the weak, pathetic bit........well sometimes it takes even more strength to face our feelings, to acknowledge them, to let that "mask" slip.........so when you do that you honestly aren't weak, you honestly aren't pathetic, OK?? Kudos to you!!!
Just don't forget that reaching out for support bit as well, yes??

Self-care I struggle with, too, because I don't care about myself enough for that.
Do you think it might help if you schedule in, as a "need to do" some more self care things maybe?? Maybe it will feel like a bit of a chore but as time goes on perhaps you could start to value that a bit more??

I can list positive/worthwhile traits, but I can't feel it, you know?
Do you think it just feels like "So what.......none of that/those things changes the way I feel"???
Maybe some depression there...........which will so easily stand in the way of you feeling a real/personal sense of value for yourself..........and with help with the depression.........
But you can maybe put a spin on what you see as positive/worthwhile traits as well........maybe the more "conventional" one's aren't working for you/aren't personal enough for you in valuing yourself..........perhaps you could value things like "standing out" in some ways from others...........like having your own set of beliefs...........things like that, or even things other people may see as "trivial"........but to/for you............

It's funny, I always thought emotional strength was the ability to take a lot of damage and still keep going! (I don't like being human, I feel like I don't belong to/with humanity anyway.)
Yes, emotional strength can be that, but it can also sometimes "soften the blows" when/if they come as well, or have you "walking away" from things that may be damaging.........and I know it can be real hard to build on that sometimes...........but if this new T turns out to be not so bad maybe you could work on that with them???

Maybe I'll just keep hiding in my little hole here. (The new therapist I may stick with that I saw yesterday says I mustn't isolate myself, but...)
Maybe a little room for compromise there?? And again "terminology" with the "isolate" bit..........for now that could mean something like going for a bit of a walk, you'd be passing people, you'd be "out there", you'd be less isolated............could mean making a phone call or two you might not have otherwise done, again you'd be less isolated............for now work on what you're relatively comfortable in doing. It can be real good in pushing your boundaries a bit..........but no-one should be asking you to just "crash right through them" just like that



Alison

Thank you. I suppose I mostly am a gentle soul, and the part of me in which the not-so-gentle lived seems to have submerged when I kept asking it to let me handle life. Now I wish it'd come back and bail me out.

I'm in my thirties. My job is pretty boring (data management) though stressful because of the conditions.

But that was how you were feeling. That's perfectly okay. I appreciate the thought behind the apology, though.

I guess there's no real way and that one must beat a path through the brambles.

I feel I know a lot about myself at this point, but it doesn't seem to help. The gaps in my practical knowledge and/or effectiveness seem to lie in those spaces in between, you know? Not with me, but with everything outside of me. Not to say that I'm not still learning about myself, because I certainly am. I know what I do and don't want in people. Learning to see far enough ahead, recognizing red flags even when they're more disguised...those are hard. Of course there's no accounting for changes in people or shifts in relationships either. It's amazing how it can go from, "Hey, this is decent!" to spinning out in a ball of fire and shrapnel.

Things that I can't control that involve people, unfortunately. You sound like you have a great plan.

Hmm, well, caring about people. Also using my happy little therapy tools to be emotionally connected and present totally backfired, so maybe that should be tossed out, too. Not to mention the nonsense about how I should be open, authentic, and vulnerable. Ye gods. It's like How To Kill a Person's Soul 101. Oh yeah, I'm familiar with a little road rage myself!

Re: eliminating destructive behaviors and coping strategies...the wires in my brain are getting (even more) crossed because all of the things that were supposed to be effective and "healthy" f*!@ed me over a lot worse than my standard dysfunctional fare. Maybe it's because of the situation I was in, but honestly, my distrust is at maximum now and the way I was doing things seems damned fine compared to how horribly the change served me.

My time management is actually pretty good. I cram a lot into my life. Honestly, I need to strip some things out because I'm overloaded, but I can't really pare it down any more. I've got smiling covered - I smile all the time (that's why I say my smile wears me), even when I'm talking about something very upsetting. I can only stop smiling and joking when I get more comfortable and feel it's okay to be serious.

Don't want random non-connected people. I want close connections. (I look on meetup.com and at other groups periodically, but I have yet to find anything that seems likely.) The people skills I have trouble with are when I get more intimate with people. When I'm not close to people, I do pretty well.

Errr...

I think I've fallen on my face so much trying that I don't have much of one left anymore. I think I'm really in that mode of doing nothing now because I have tried and tried and it didn't do any good.

I'm sorry I'm so negative.

You deserve love, compassion, and support, Lilo.

Thanks for the detailed response.

How about we focus on distress tolerance ? By the way, anything and everything I'm telling you is based on raw life experience, and NOT on any kind of formalized therapy. I've never attended DBT or anything like that.

Forget "the nonsense about how I should be open, authentic, and vulnerable" ... let's stick to the essentials, right ? What is it that you see as a barrier to your well being, on a daily basis ?

- Is there a tough person at work or a neighbor in your apartment complex who seems to know how to ruin your day ?
- Do you have social anxiety ? Does seeing happy couples trigger you and make you wanna run n hide ? When you leave the home for a grocery run, are you triggered by such things ?

What are things that bug you on a daily basis ? That's what I was trying to get at. We need to find a way to not let those things bug us or to minimize the effect.

Examples in my daily life:
- People in my neighborhood (apartment complex) being loud and inconsiderate
- Boss and peers at work trying their best to boil my blood
- Assholes on the road
- Having to deal with rude/unprofessional customer service reps on the phone, for various things
- Recently, bad physical health

I've learned, over time, to not give these random people power over my mood, because they are BIG NOBODIES !!! They mean nothing to me in my life. If I were to give these people power over me, what if someone really important came along ? What would I have left for them ? And, how many such nobodies am I to give such power to ? Won't I go insane ?

So, what are some of the things that bother you on a daily basis, that you would like to suppress ? Start there. Goals and nice to haves aside.

Distress tolerance was a huge part of improvement for me.