[Nicky123]

Does anyone know if it's common to have a sibling who also has BPD and how common would it be? I've been searching for info in this but to no avail. One of my siblings, as I recall it, gave me quite a hard time growing up(she may see it very differently!!) She is sarcastic to the extreme, a trait which I loathe( because of it I never use sarcasm, thankfully) and has a terrible temper. She does have some good qualities but is very cold emotionally and has done anything to get her own way, no matter who gets hurt in the process. My other siblings( 7 ) don't really want anything to do with her. She only ever makes contact when she wants something. I did have a lot of contact with her until recently but have suddenly realized that I was the one doing all the running. I'm thinking now that she may be suffering in her own way and while I'm certainly not wishing a BPD diagnosis for her, I was just wondering if anyone knows if this might be possible. We are all afraid of her, including my parents!!! Thanks

[Luctor]

Interesting question. Both my siblings are normal, healthy balanced individuals.

[CopperStar]

My brother has covert NPD, which doesn't surprise me at all, because he was the golden child while I was the scapegoat child - but only to our mother, who always did that sort of **** and still does to this day. Our father was just all sorts of nasty, abusive and messed up, and he always passively rejected my brother, he didn't like any male competition, not even his own son. So now my brother is a covert narc with a lot of 'secret' pent up rage issues. I say 'secret' because he doesn't fool me, I've known him since he was born. Which is also how I know that who he is and his NPD are not the same thing. He wasn't born with NPD, and after all these years he still opens up to me once in a blue moon and drops his facade. We went through a rough patch years ago because he was expected to be loyal our mother and take her side while she was being insanely nasty towards me, or else she would have turned on him, too. I was disappointed that his fear of her outweighed his love for me, but I forgave him eventually. When she started to turn on him, too, it was like we could finally be close again the way we were as kids, because the fear-control spell was broken and he quit caring if she liked him or not.

I advise you to give your sibling space and time. IME the bond between siblings is extremely special and unique, and not something to be easily thrown away unless they are putting you in danger or something. Please also remember that nobody is born with a personality disorder. Even AsPD and a psychopath are not the same thing, the former is created and the latter is born with their brain the way it is. If you sibling has BPD, chances are your parents played a major role in that development, too. Eventually if she is ever ready, you could wind up being the only person in her life who will be able to understand.

[marmaduke]

Copperstar
Please also remember that nobody is born with a personality disorder. Even AsPD and a psychopath are not the same thing, the former is created and the latter is born with their brain the way it is.
Conflicting statements!
I think people are born personality disorders, particularly psychopathy, sociopathy and narcissisum.
My sister was always 'different'. She is a narcissist/sociopath like mother.
She is a powerful personality and we are all scared of her.

Nicky, your sister sounds like mine NPD. If she causes you hurt stay away.
Shes not necessarily 'suffering' if she's a narc she will be causing others to stuffer tho.
They don't, can't provide unconditonal love, their 'love' only appears when they want something.

[CopperStar]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

Copperstar

I think people are born personality disorders, particularly psychopathy, sociopathy and narcissisum.

Based on all of the reading I have done and my own experiences, as well as observing my brother from the day he was born to present, I must say that I respectfully disagree with you.

Psychopaths are born with underdeveloped or damaged areas of their brain which causes in a sense a sort of emotional retardation, similar to how some people born with underdeveloped or damaged areas that result in cognitive retardation. There is no pathology that is developed, it is a matter of neurological problems.

NPD, AsPD, BPD and so on are the results of early childhood conditioning that persists through developmental years, and yes it has an effect on the actual brain organ. I may have several strong BPD tendencies, but I'm not going to give myself a bit of a pass while condemning everyone else's PDs and invalidating their childhood experiences.

There is a pretty good documentary called Child Of Rage, however BIG TRIGGER WARNING if you decide to watch it, as it will include material on childhood physical and sexual abuse. Please take note of how when her situation is caught early and aggressive, early intervention is applied, she is able to make a relatively remarkable turn-around. Unfortunately this does not happen for many children.

Also I do not believe that just because PDs result from early childhood conditioning that it means that they should just be allowed to treat people however they want. Protecting yourself will always be of the utmost importance, and we can't let empathy or understanding make us deny our own boundaries and survival instincts. But I do think it's important to try to understand for the sake of earlier intervention in more children's lives and better outcomes as a result.

[Trippin2.0]

I watched that docci a good couple months ago, I thought it quite mind blowing. In fact I rewatched it once or twice!


On the subject of nature VS nurture, I have to agree, personality disorders are not something we are born with.


I don't remember it very clearly, but I don't think I even had a personality when I was born I was just a blubbering ball of beautiful baby


The clue is even in the labels...

Psychopath

Anti-Social Personality Disorder

Borderline Personality Disorder

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Avoidant Personality Disorder


Etc etc etc


To the OP, idk what the stats say, but since our disorders stem from how we were shaped, there must be a chance for siblings to develop the same disorders. Since they were raised by the same people.


I wont even try and arm chair dx your sister though, she sounds nothing like me. She sounds more like my sister who is neurotypical, but a selfish, self -centered one at that. She never has anything to give, but your number is on speed dial when she wants to receive...

But then again, idk your sister do I?


I'd like to end this on a positive note and say that, even though my sister is all the things I mentioned above and more, and I used to hate her growing up... We are now friends and I love her to bits. I accept that she is what and how she is, so I just remain vigilant WRT my boundaries so she can't emotionally harm me anymore.

[marmaduke]

CopperStar, thanks for your reply.

Psychopaths are born with underdeveloped or damaged areas of their brain which causes in a sense a sort of emotional retardation, similar to how some people born with underdeveloped or damaged areas that result in cognitive retardation. There is no pathology that is developed, it is a matter of neurological problems.

NPD, AsPD, BPD and so on are the results of early childhood conditioning that persists through developmental years, and yes it has an effect on the actual brain organ. I may have several strong BPD tendencies, but I'm not going to give myself a bit of a pass while condemning everyone else's PDs and invalidating their childhood experiences.

Observing my own narcissistic mother (who was not abused as a child), and my narcissistic/sociopathic sister my conclusion is that they were indeed born that way.

I find the conclusion that NPD is caused by abuse illogical, in as much out of 3 children all raised by my N parents, only one is NPD. Why?
I was neglected, ignored so much that I began to dissociate. Mother was so cold. I was called fat, stupid, ugly, a burden. At 11 years old she tried to stab me with a carving knife holding it to me saying 'I HATE YOU SO MUCH'
I was broken.
Mother abandoned my eldest sister as a newborn, and picked her back up 4 years later.

So, tell me, why am I, and my eldest sister not narcs *if* abuse/neglect causes it.
There is clearly a genetic difference, a pre-disposition.
Psyhopathy/sociopathy/narcissisum are in the same genre. Born that way, wired differently.
I know people who are clearly narcissistic who have never been abused. Most narcs will never be diagnoised, they live under the radar, causing havoc to family, friends and work colleagues while living in blithe oblivion to their PD. And usually through manipulations, coniving and lies manage to emerge (frustratingly) unscathed.

After all, nothing is never their fault, right?

Actually, early severe neglect/abuse does not cause narcissisum, it causes R.A.D (reactive attachment disorder) which can present similar to psychopathy. These children cannot feel emotional attachments to others, people to them are just objects much like a table or a chair.

But then, it is possible for problems to have more than one cause, abuse, neglect, violence causes sooo much damage to a child.

[Nicky123]

Thanks folks for the replies and information. It's difficult to know whether she is a narcissist or not (do they have a conscience? Do they think they are always right?) Regardless, I know that for now, I have to stay away from her as it's extremely unhealthy for me. I'm a bit frantic about trying to learn everything I can about BPD(recently diagnosed). I have so many questions, many I can't answer but hopefully will get some insight into these issues in time.
Copperstar: Thanks for the video line....it's quite scary. I wonder what kind of adult Beth became? Very interesting though.
Thanks again all.

[Luctor]

Marmaduke, CopperStar, why not meet halfway?

My belief, and definitely the case in my situation, is that people are born with the physical propensity for PDs. Negative developmental environments can trigger these predispositions.

Just my 2c.

[marmaduke]

Originally Posted by Luctor

Marmaduke, CopperStar, why not meet halfway?

My belief, and definitely the case in my situation, is that people are born with the physical propensity for PDs. Negative developmental environments can trigger these predispositions.

Just my 2c.

Thanks, sure you got a point there.

Nature provides the gun, nuture pulls the trigger.

Case in point, James Fallon, a psychopath, who says the only thing that stopped him from being a murderer (a trait that runs in his family) was his exceptionally good childhood, it saved him, he was showered with love, attention and support. This only just saved him tho, his family always knew he was 'different' and admitted they had at times been frightened of him.

Many leaders, CEOS are thought to be narcissistic/psycopathic types, their lack of conscience, empathy and fear enables them to be ruthless, crush the 'little people' and lose no sleep over it.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...f-a-psychopath

[CopperStar]

marmaduke,

When I read stories like yours, it only sounds to me like you are describing AsPD. Of course since research on all this stuff is still a work in progress, I definitely get that it's a matter of personal experiences, perceptions and opinions.

But like my younger brother was not born a narcissist, and he fits the more sympathetic understanding of narcissists to a T. He has very low self-esteem which he masks with his 'false self' based on what he thinks it means to be 'perfect'. He is usually trying to be the polar opposite of our biological father in every way and rejects any part of himself that remotely reminds him of our father. When anything or anyone pokes at his false-self bubble, he shuts down to 'escape' which comes across as the silent treatment.

But he is not malignant, he is not cruel or nasty like what you describe in some of your relatives. He is a very class narc. The only time it's a major problem is when he does something hurtful but then is too terrified to own up to it because he doesn't want to be 'bad' in any way, so instead he avoids and denies.

What you describe sounds extremely malignant to me. It has that malignant edge to it. It's not just a matter of being otherwise-normal but having self-esteem and denial issues. The behaviors you describe of your relatives is nasty, hateful, hostile, sadistic.

Maybe we don't have all the right words yet, but I just see a major difference, I guess?

I also think that some people are inherently stronger than others, psychological resilience, spiritual, whatever one might call it. You might just be an exceptionally strong person. Which I think is also much harder, because then you are like, expected to be strong, which can become a very exhausting and thankless existence.

[CopperStar]

Originally Posted by Luctor

Marmaduke, CopperStar, why not meet halfway?

My belief, and definitely the case in my situation, is that people are born with the physical propensity for PDs. Negative developmental environments can trigger these predispositions.

Just my 2c.

You make a very good point, and I have read some research that indicates a significant biological factor in BPD, too, which supports your theory.

I just find myself sometimes trying to imagine how I would be different if I had grown up in a safe and healthy environment. I can't help but wonder what my 'true' self would have been like, what I was really meant to be like.

Like if I was born with an emotionally intense brain, so to speak, but had grown up in a healthy environment, how would I have turned out? Maybe I would have been an empath or something, something valuable and good, instead of the nutcase I turned out to be. Maybe it is just wishful thinking but it's how I feel, I can't help it.

[marmaduke]

What you describe sounds extremely malignant to me. It has that malignant edge to it. It's not just a matter of being otherwise-normal but having self-esteem and denial issues. The behaviors you describe of your relatives is nasty, hateful, hostile, sadistic.

My mother was a malignant narcissist, she knew what she was doing, and enjoyed it.

I also think that some people are inherently stronger than others, psychological resilience, spiritual, whatever one might call it. You might just be an exceptionally strong person.

No, not strong at all, unfortunately, whereas my narc sister is a very powerful personality. I don't buy all the 'false self, secret insecurity' stuff that was Freud's theory about narcissists 100 years ago. It was never fact, just his thoughts.

A person damaged by upbring can sometimes bury feelings, emotions and maybe come 'numb' because they are suffering. I wouldn't call that narcissium tho.

Brain scans are starting to reveal facts.

[CopperStar]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

What you describe sounds extremely malignant to me. It has that malignant edge to it. It's not just a matter of being otherwise-normal but having self-esteem and denial issues. The behaviors you describe of your relatives is nasty, hateful, hostile, sadistic.

My mother was a malignant narcissist, she knew what she was doing, and enjoyed it.

What do you think of the notion that a malignant narcissist and a psychopath are the same thing? That has been my take on it for a while. Because I read articles about malignant narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths, and they all basically describe the same thing. Then there are cases like my brother, who fit the psychology behind NPD but who are not malignant. I almost feel like "malignant narcissist" is some sort of cop-out meant to elicit pity, because it combines the mentality and behaviors of a psychopath, but by adding on "narcissist" it implies that it's not their fault. NPD involves a lot of delusion about one's own self, and a lot of denial. Whereas being emotionally sadistic is a whole 'nother story, hurting people and knowing exactly what you are doing and enjoying it is a whole 'nother story. I personally don't even buy into "malignant narcissism". I feel like it's calling a spade a spade to just be like yeah, that's a psychopath.

[marmaduke]

I think you are right!
Its a long story but my N sister has killed people. Mother for instance who adored her (golden child) was finished off by golden N sister. Put into a home without consultion with other family members, mother NEVER wanted to go into a home. She was doing OK, the docs said she was fraile but tough, with a very strong heartbeat and could last for years possibily.
N sister then decided (oddly) that mother was in fact 'on her deathbed' and started with her narcissistic daughter a 'vigil' by mothers bed side.

These two did not leave mother alone with anyone, when I requested if they would leave the room so I could could have some private time with mother, sister fell into a RAGE. Her face contorted, her eyes turned black. My partner who was with me at the time took a step back, shocked at the out pouring of hatred.

Anyway a week later mother, was dead. I think this 'vigil' was about them controlling food & water. They starved mother to death, N sister was fed up waiting for her inheirtance, she had decided, mother had to go.

[Crazy Hitch]

Honestly?

To the best of my knowledge my brother and sister don't have BPD ... but then again ... I can't be 100% sure, since I was only diagnosed last year at the age of 36