[Troy]

Training for war was kind of like a game. The trick was to learn what you could and escape harassment from the cadre. But, you couldn't escape the harassment because it was also part of the training. The sooner trainees catch on to that, the easier things go. Those who take the harassment personally really have a tough time of it.

Training to kill was kind of like a game also. They told us over and over that we would have to use these skills to complete our missions and to stay alive. The training was realistic. One soldier was killed accidentally in our training, not unusual. Sometimes as many as 2 or 3 per class died.

In the front of our minds we could absorb the training, but in the back of our minds, it seemed unrealistic to expect that we would actually take a life with any of these techniques.

As it turned out, we were capable of all they taught us and many more things we improvised as the situation called for it. I didn't have to do these things.

It only took a short time for a kid off the streets to become an animal of the jungle.

And now, all these years later, what am I capable of? A couple of years ago, I would have criticized anyone for doing some of the things that I finally wound up doing. Who would have thought I was even capable of doing it. (I'm not critical anymore, just sympathetic or empathetic).

One of the things I've learned of in survivor sites is SI. And at first thought, ugh, how could that happen. What could lead a person to doing that? And today, for the first time, I thought, maybe, just maybe ...

I even thought, how could i do this so it leaves a scar, a really good scar, a disfigurement. And it made me wonder "what am i capable of" ... Just like the young soldiers off the street who were capable of so much more than they ever imagined. Within weeks, they were doing things they'd never even heard of before.

kind of scary
T.

[nowheretorun]

((Troy))))))

you were trained to do the things you were trained to do because its a service our nation demands, needs... military service is one best expressed by those whove served it... no one can relate the memories as only the vets are capable..

as a citizen who enjoys freedom its worth saying that i cannot stand in judgment of one who's shoes ive never walked..

i can say if i was in the wrong place at the wrong time, i can be pretty sure i'd be thankful if you were there...

(and then i'd curse myself again for being there again)

my dad had only one tattoo.. you can guess.. to me, it was a reminder of who he was, what he did for me, besides being a father and Dad...

i have never understood either why one would wish to harm them self with scarring, even on my darkest days the thought never occurred to me... but there is much i do not understand in life still... i pray you will not self harm Troy...

[Troy]

Same here... i cudn't imagine it before.

There was one time in my recovery when I thought of only one alternative to the extreme and ongoing pain, but that time passed and so did the pain.

It's pretty scary to have had the thought. And it was a comforting thought. Enticing. It was kind of like an aha moment, like...there's the answer, 'people won't think your so attractive then.'

A follow up thought was that I could google it and find out how to make the scars prominent. How stupid is all of that? Very.

I don't know whether this kind of stuff comes from ptsd or from childhood sex abuse (and a variety of abuses as a kid), but I thought it would be better to say these things out loud rather than to harbor them as secrets like I've done so many other things

ty for prayers
T.

[(JD)]

There are reasons for the military to want older teens for training for war. But what you must remember is that when you are in uniform, you are required to respond as a member of the armed forces... including go to war and do unspeakable things. When you come home, leave the military, you remove the uniform and become a regular citizen again. That's one of the reasons for the uniform...to help with blending back into society when you can remove it. Of course the events and memories are another matter...but to help with it: "that was then" this is now.

Military training does in a way brain wash you to respond without having to think and decide at times. That isn't who you are, it isn't who you become, it's only what you might need to do when in battle.

I am reminded of a story about when it was common for hippies to call cops "pigs." Someone I know was called it once by a foul mouthed bigot, and he lectured the driver: that when he (the cop) went home, he'd take off the uniform, take a shower, put on clean clothes and sit down to eat with his daughter and wife, and he wouldn't be a pig anymore, however, the driver would probably be a bigot all his life!

We are not what we go through. Our experiences do help shape who we want to be...it's up to us to constantly battle the negative and emerge victorious members of society.

[xander1100]

military training in and of itself doesnt brainwash you. a lot of people who are looking for attention might call themselves "brainwashed" or what not, but its really just for that attention.

as for what we're capable of: everyone is capable of it, just less likely to act. granted, if soemthing went "bang" back home you wouldnt start ripping apart anyone who looked even remotely responsible. you do in the sand box though because its a necessity to stay alive.

spend enough time unloading corpses from your trunk or the top of your hood, you start to see things in a larger picture. in the grand scheme of things, would that person have helped with anything that grand? no. so is what we did to him really that aweful, in the big picture? not at all. good, evil, they dont exist. each of our own little worlds do exist though, and we might as well stay in them for as long as possible. its survival, not horror.

[suvivor]

we are capbable of anything the mind can conjure up sometimes it saves our lives sometimes we can save others, sometimes we blow it! but in the end we have to deal with each and every episode.

[(JD)]

We can do what needs to be done, if we are properly trained for it. Is that a sin?

[Troy]

And the military can brain wash your brain... I took mine in there and handed it to them, asking that they bleach it clean and start over ... and they did.

[xander1100]

buying into something and believing it to blindness isnt quite brainwashing. mind if i ask what u do?

[Troy]

ok... no arguement., but I call it brainwashing...a willingly washed brain, lol ...

I don't mind your asking about what I do, but I'm still very deep on all of this and prefer not to tell. Maybe some day.
I'd rather tell you this than lie here. I've had it with lies and silence. Thanks for your understanding.
T.

[50guy]

I joined the Marines in 1973 at 17 and it was one of the best things I ever did in my life. They took a boy and turned him into a man.
The training I got is something I still revert to even these 30+ years later. It is not brain washing, it is the intense sub-conscience training that was instilled in me. I am in a leadership position at my job. I am proud of my service and the things I did when I was in the Marines. I never killed anyone but, I could, even to this day.
I was glad to hear that the Marines have returned to the training like we had during the Viet Nam Era. That is the kind of training that is necessary. It will help to separate out those that are potentially not able to handle the stresses of combat. PTSD is real but, unfortunately there are some that abuse the system and make false claims which sheds a bad light on the entire illness.

Also, proper mental screening before sending troops off to combat is necessary. More intense screening before allowing them to join is needed too.

I work with and around Veterans all day. Most are truly in need but, there is a large minority that game the system which makes it hard for those that are truly in need of help.

[(JD)]

I realize that the use of the word "brainwash" is generally slotted as a negative thing. However, the process for change can be a good thing and still fall within the definition of "brainwashing."

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
The US recruit training units, for example, describe the process as breaking people down, giving them a new set of experiences to serve as a frame of reference for the future, and then building them back up. The word "brainwashing" is absent from that description, but the description itself is practically the dictionary definition of "brainwash".

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(From the discussion group finding links for wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Recruit_training)


Brainwashing consists of two processes, a softening up and an indoctrination process. ...

When one enters the military, they go in with a variety of beliefs and systems for daily living. Few work in the theater of war and self survival. The recruit must be stripped of beliefs that will get not only themselves killed, but their unit too. They have to learn team work, and first lose self reliance before they can relearn self reliance through their training and being "fit for duty."

Brainwashing is a harsh term in today's society (and indeed was also in the 40s regarding what the Communists realized regarding faithful soldiers.) A process by any other name... results the same.