[stopdog]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

I am not sure we can say this is all due to horrific therapists,.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I agree it all may not be due to horrificness of the therapist. I was only saying that the norm in terms whether more people have positive or negative experiences of therapy is not known.

[growlycat]

"If you say 'I found having sex with my therapist to be very helpful therapeutically, and I'm thinking of sneaking into his attic and living secretly above his bedroom', you'll be fine. "

Wow, what a fantastic idea!! ha- just kidding. A pretty funny quote though!!!

[Rive.]

I don’t agree with this viewpoint. There are quite a few posts recounting therapists’ unethical behaviours and these posts still stand (i don’t see that they should be removed anyway). Worse, the prevalent T-bashing mentality from some quarters is still rampant i.e. not subject to any moderation whatsoever.

What is sad is to read again and again about generalisation that every single therapist on earth is the devil incarnate. It is a judgmental, narrow-minded viewpoint and factually inaccurate. But seemingly, therapy and therapist-bashing is all right on here.

[Pennster]

Originally Posted by Rive.

I don’t agree with this viewpoint. There are quite a few posts recounting therapists’ unethical behaviours and these posts still stand (i don’t see that they should be removed anyway). Worse, the prevalent T-bashing mentality from some quarters is still rampant i.e. not subject to any moderation whatsoever.

What is sad is to read again and again about generalisation that every single therapist on earth is the devil incarnate. It is a judgmental, narrow-minded viewpoint and factually inaccurate. But seemingly, therapy and therapist-bashing is all right on here.

If that's what someone's experience has been, what better place to air that out? Some people need to work out their experiences, and find others who might feel the same way. I feel like it's a good thing to make space for a whole range of opinions. And I think it's ultimately healthier for people to have an outlet than to have to hide their opinions - and for me, I'm glad to read a whole gamut of opinions. I think it provides a much fuller picture of what therapy is like for people to have some people voicing their extreme disgruntlement alongside others who may have a rosier view.

[unaluna]

So whats the saying about easier to curse the darkness than to light a candle?

[stopdog]

“Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.”

Sometimes cursing the darkness is much more satisfactory. I doubt it is easier in all cases.

[Pennster]

Originally Posted by hankster

So whats the saying about easier to curse the darkness than to light a candle?

I think some people might just take some time to find a match. Or they might decide to grab their cellphone for the flashlight. Or they might start using echolocation. Everyone has to find their own way, methinks.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Lauliza

I agree with much of what you're saying and respect where you and many other posters are coming from. I know that a lot of people have been hurt by therapy and many of the accounts I've read on PC are horrific. My own experience as a consumer has not been particularly good either. With the exception of the T I saw up until the last year, I've never had any I've liked. There are a lot of therapists out there and I would guess that there more there are of anything, the harder it is to find one that's actually good.

We all make generalizations, I understand that. But this is a psychotherapy forum with many posters who have been helped. When you are in a dark place and someone helps you out of it, you tend to see that person as pretty important part of your life. It might even look a little like blind devotion, but that's what happens sometimes. Whether that's healthy or not isn't really up for someone here to judge. So it bothers me when posters on the other end of the spectrum who've had pretty awful experiences, invalidate these positive ones. Similar to the way some believe mental health professionals label or invalidate them, there is an implication in some posts that satisfied clients must be delusional or brainwashed. Everyone experiences therapy differently ad while I'll agree that there are a lot of people on this forum who've had horrific experiences, that is not the norm.

And like I've said before, with the advent of the Internet it is now possible for any hack to write an article or an ebook. I would take much of what is read in blogs, or on websites with a grain of salt and not view them as representing of the general T population.

Sadly, the point I was making was, once again, misunderstood..It's fascinating but also frustrating to see how people create false arguments, which is one of logical fallacies. Nowhere did I say that everybody experiences therapy the same and nowhere did I indicate that I agree with everything one side of this debate says or does. Anyone, who genuinely wants to understand my position will be able to see clearly that I am not taking sides but maintaining my own independent vision of this issue that is driven by my desire to understand it rather than to blame anyone. My only motivation for any discussion is to gain a deeper understanding of the issue discussed through understanding other points of view and explaining my own. But apparently the desire to understand is not something that drives this community. What I see here is the desire to "win" the argument rather than to understand each other. Thank God, I don't have the need to "win"..Not anymore.

[Rive.]

Originally Posted by Pennster

If that's what someone's experience has been, what better place to air that out? Some people need to work out their experiences, and find others who might feel the same way.

That is not what I said. I have no issues about people's personal experiences and totally agree with your point re sharing and/or even warning others. I even stated rather explicitly (in my initial post) that I would not want to see such posts edited/moderated/deleted.

My issue is that a select few throw stereotypes and generalisations around. This is where - and how - prejudice and discrimination originate. So, no, I am afraid it doesn't sit well (for me) to lump any one category of people together & condemn them all. There are dedicated Ts out there and it is a shame to castigate the whole lot.

My issue is thus solely about pre-judging a whole group of people and a whole profession. I can't even explain how disturbing I find such behaviour. That's all I was trying to say.

[Pennster]

Ah, sorry Rive. You were totally clear the first time, and I expressed myself clumsily.

I should have made it clear that I was talking about exactly that- the people who seem very down on the whole profession. some people's experiences seem to lead them to conclude the whole system is untrustworthy. I am hearing you that you feel it's disturbing to cast aspersions on the entire profession (and I agree with you that there are lots of dedicated therapists!), but at the same time I am glad this place can be an outlet for people who feel so pained by their experiences that they are in a place now where they feel angry at the entire system or are suspicious of all therapists. I don't agree with them, but I have no problem with them saying what they feel about the entire profession. Partly because I don't see therapists or the entire mental health field as being very vulnerable when it is being stereotyped or prejudiced against - I think of the field and the group of people who practice in it as being very robust and well able to defend themselves against such generalizations from wounded people.

But I understand that my opinion will be different than many!

Originally Posted by Rive.

That is not what I said. I have no issues about people's personal experiences and totally agree with your point re sharing and/or even warning others. I even stated rather explicitly (in my initial post) that I would not want to see such posts edited/moderated/deleted.

My issue is that a select few throw stereotypes and generalisations around. This is where - and how - prejudice and discrimination originate. So, no, I am afraid it doesn't sit well (for me) to lump any one category of people together & condemn them all. There are dedicated Ts out there and it is a shame to castigate the whole lot.

My issue is thus solely about pre-judging a whole group of people and a whole profession. I can't even explain how disturbing I find such behaviour. That's all I was trying to say.

Well, therapy as a profession deeply disturbs me. I find it dysfunctional and harmful. I am glad it doesn't go against the guidelines here for some of us to express our opinions about that.

I am very disturbed by the tremendous harm it can do and how that is ignored by many therapists and many consumers of therapy. I also no longer feel the need to defend my position. It is what it is for me. I am extremely glad that I am no longer believe in therapy. LOL. I feel very free and have done so much better without thinking that a therapist can help me.

[SallyBrown]

Originally Posted by BudFox

My experience is that it's very mixed. Some are for sure. And sometimes the majority are in a given a thread.

But there can be invalidation in the face of criticism of therapy. For example, in one thread I said I experienced a pattern of feeling demeaned in therapy and asked if anyone could relate, and also suggested that perhaps the structure of therapy inflicts this. Some could relate and said so. Others suggested it was not really to do with therapy, it was all about me. That's not supportive. It was pretty insulting. And it mirrors what therapists do sometimes -- deflect back to the client no matter what. Not the end of the world, just what I observed.

It's a little strange to me that you started this thread about how dissent on certain topics is not "allowed" here, but then you are upset about dissent on your own thread. If you're arguing that people should be allowed to feel that the therapy structure creates problems, why should they not also be allowed to question whether the issue comes from you rather than therapy? I didn't read that thread and I think direct insults are always out of line, so if there were direct insults then that's not fair to you and it's not ok. As a side note, I've found that people can benefit from saying up front, "I can't deal with someone disagreeing with me right now, and I'm only interested in hearing from you if you've had the same experience and share my point of view." That way it's easier to give you what you need, and to pass if I can't give that to you.

But it doesn't help your argument to say the type of dissent you subscribe to should be heard more, and that the other type is insulting and unsupportive. Saying that all opinions should be heard means ALL opinions, and suggesting otherwise makes it hard to take this very seriously. Perhaps you have a minority opinion, and perhaps that is upsetting, but that's not the same thing as not being allowed to have it.

There's a fair amount of confirmation bias going on here, where people who feel like one side is overly represented (all therapists are egomaniacal money-grubbing buttwipes, vs. therapy is sunshine and rainbows and always works) will selectively see that over and over again, because some version of both views is represented all over the forum, but when you see the one that sets you off, that's the one that sticks with you.

[stopdog]

I cheerfully and unrepentently judge the profession as a whole and view them with grave suspicion and disdain. No therapists are harmed by my opinion, and frankly, I don't see anyone here being harmed either. If your own beliefs or experiences are different from mine, then so be it. My opinion about the subject does not change anyone else's experience.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I cheerfully and unrepentently judge the profession as a whole and view them with grave suspicion and disdain. No therapists are harmed by my opinion, and frankly, I don't see anyone here being harmed either. If your own beliefs or experiences are different from mine, then so be it. My opinion about the subject does not change anyone else's experience.

I do see the potential for harm to people coming on this forum, including people who are just reading rather than posting, who are relatively new to therapy and/or less secure in how it works, etc. Framing viewpoints as personal experience rather than declaring ALL or even MOST of therapy/therapy are one way (good or bad -- either way is a problem) is important as people do make decisions about how to proceed based on what they read here -- for right or wrong. Someone who might really need and benefit from therapy could very potentially run from the very idea based on strongly worded opinions that are not framed as personal experience but rather as "truth" and "word" for ALL or MOST therapy/therapists. Another person who might have a truly unethical therapy situation going on might dismiss their own problems in their own therapy as invalid or mistaken based on similar declarations in the other direction made as fact rather than as personal experience.

So long as people's opinions are being framed in their own personal experience, those kinds of confusions can be mostly avoided. People can read a post about a person's personal experience, framed that way, and realize X happened to this person and it was really positive or harmful. That is different than someone declaring ALL or even MOST therapy/therapists/meds/therapy modes, etc. as good or bad (again, either direction is a problem) when the only real substantiation for their declaration is their personal opinion.

Where there is research, then use the research to substantiate those kinds of declarations and that is fine. We can look at the research and debate the merits/flaws of the research. Where there is not research, but only personal experience and anecdotal "evidence," then it seems best to be sure that kind of opinion is framed as opinion. Unfortunately, often it is not, and therein can be the potential for harm to people reading what we write here as "truth," and I do believe, as seen frequently by people who tell us so right here on this forum, what we write here often IS taken as fact and truth when it probably shouldn't always be taken that way (or perhaps ever really). Not our fault I realize, but it is something that I feel should be taken into account.

[SallyBrown]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I cheerfully and unrepentently judge the profession as a whole and view them with grave suspicion and disdain. No therapists are harmed by my opinion, and frankly, I don't see anyone here being harmed either. If your own beliefs or experiences are different from mine, then so be it. My opinion about the subject does not change anyone else's experience.

I could see how it's a gray area in terms of "harm", but I'd say that there are a number of people on here who care very much about their therapists (or are married to one, or related to one, or whatever), and so for me it's like asking... if someone cheerfully tells my mom how much they hate all medical research scientists, because they're a bunch of amoral sociopaths without a conscience, are they harming her? I'm sure she'd like to leap to my defense, and would feel kind of crappy about it.

On one hand, that's just that person's opinion, and she should feel free to disagree with it and move on. On the other, I'm her daughter, and she believes in what I'm doing, and to have someone talk about me (in that I am lumped into that persons all-encompassing disdain for those who wield a petri dish) in such a way would be upsetting. So, while that person is free to have their opinion and to state it, I can't say I'd be super thrilled about how much joy they'd get out of telling my mom how much they hate her daughter.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by SallyBrown

I could see how it's a gray area in terms of "harm", but I'd say that there are a number of people on here who care very much about their therapists (or are married to one, or related to one, or whatever), and so for me it's like asking... if someone cheerfully tells my mom how much they hate all medical research scientists, because they're a bunch of amoral sociopaths without a conscience, are they harming her? I'm sure she'd like to leap to my defense, and would feel kind of crappy about it.

On one hand, that's just that person's opinion, and she should feel free to disagree with it and move on. On the other, I'm her daughter, and she believes in what I'm doing, and to have someone talk about me (in that I am lumped into that persons all-encompassing disdain for those who wield a petri dish) in such a way would be upsetting. So, while that person is free to have their opinion and to state it, I can't say I'd be super thrilled about how much joy they'd get out of telling my mom how much they hate her daughter.

I can relate - as the child of two doctors and the spouse of two more, I do tend to bristle when I hear anti-doctor comments. However...the people saying them clearly mean no harm to me, and many do not know my background, so I can hardly expect them to take my feelings into account (if they did know, that would be a different story). Their opinion of doctors will hurt them more than me, after all. And when in serious medical straits, as lately, I admit that I have sometimes felt similar sentiments, albeit about my particular doctors.

[stopdog]

I guess I am not that sensitive to it. Lawyers are often despised. I chime in with my opinion, but if someone wants to despise lawyers or law school professors it is okay with me.
I also don't take offense when someone despises my father's profession, or my partner's etc. My stance about the medical personnel protects me from their clutches and I am willing to deal with the results of not using them. And I don't just know about them from my own experiences buying their services but as one who sues them. The two therapists I see seem unfazed or at least inured to my position about their profession. And of course, there is always the ignore button. Which people can use for my cranky opinions like I use it for the extreme opposites.

[eeyorestail]

I have no problem with people posting their negative experiences in therapy. I think it is important that people are able to get support when they go through something like that.

I also have no problem with anyone saying outright that "all therapists are bad," or something similar in a theoretical sense. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I don't think people should feel the need to hide theirs. And while therapists and relatives/friends of therapists may be offended by this, I don't think that's a huge deal. There are lots of professions people don't like, and part of being part of those professions is dealing with criticism...professionally.

What does bother me, and I have seen it here occasionally, is when someone comes for help with a specific problem because they are having a disagreement with their therapist or a hard time finding a good one, and is told by people that they should just give up on therapy because all therapists are horrible.

I feel the same about people telling others new to psych meds not to try them because "all psych meds are horrible," etc.

People come here for support because they are struggling with serious issues. If you have had a bad experience with therapy/meds, you certainly have a right to tell people about it and get support for it. But it can be disastrous for a person in crisis to hear that their options (therapy, meds) are shot. Is it possible that they will try therapy and meds and it won't be helpful? Of course. But they won't know until they try, and being told by "people in the know" that their situation is hopeless because the psych industry is in it for just the money can be terribly damaging, especially when there are millions of people out there who are helped by therapy and meds.

Again, I'm not saying people should feel like they can't express their views here. But maybe stick to threads dedicated to the general topic of the efficacy of different treatments, rather than telling desperate people that the game is rigged and that they will only find incompetence and indifference from psych professionals.

I don't mean to call out anyone in particular here, and I'm not saying this happens a lot--but I think we need to be mindful of the fact that people are looking for help, and when we bash all therapists and all meds we give them the impression that there is nowhere to turn.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by krminnj

...

What does bother me, and I have seen it here occasionally, is when someone comes for help with a specific problem because they are having a disagreement with their therapist or a hard time finding a good one, and is told by people that they should just give up on therapy because all therapists are horrible.

I feel the same about people telling others new to psych meds not to try them because "all psych meds are horrible," etc.

People come here for support because they are struggling with serious issues. If you have had a bad experience with therapy/meds, you certainly have a right to tell people about it and get support for it. But it can be disastrous for a person in crisis to hear that their options (therapy, meds) are shot. Is it possible that they will try therapy and meds and it won't be helpful? Of course. But they won't know until they try, and being told by "people in the know" that their situation is hopeless because the psych industry is in it for just the money can be terribly damaging, especially when there are millions of people out there who are helped by therapy and meds.

.. .

yeah thats what i mean by "better to light a candle than to curse the darkness".

Eta and karma .

[SallyBrown]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

(if they did know, that would be a different story)

I wholeheartedly agree about the wholesale negative opinion having more of an effect on the "hater" rather than the "hated". So while it will often initially bother me, in the end I just end up ignoring it because it's like... ok, welp, good luck with that, I'm just gonna go back to what I was doing, which is working really well for me AND doesn't involve hating people I've never even met (bonus!).

But the quoted part of the scenario feels like a bit of a stretch to me... I find it hard to believe that someone wouldn't know that the people on a psychotherapy forum have therapists. We may not all love our therapists, but some of us do. That doesn't mean no one's allowed to say they hate them, in fact they sure are and I don't debate that, but I find it hard to call "I enjoy hating someone you love" a helpful thing.

ETA: and yes this way off topic now. Just trying to explain what it's like for me personally, but I don't want to harp too much.

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

Many of my posts have been taken down and I have had wiggings from the moderators - life goes on.

never heard the term "wigging" before. I'm imagining someone being beaten by a group of people with wigs (in their hands).

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by jo_thorne

never heard the term "wigging" before. I'm imagining someone being beaten by a group of people with wigs (in their hands).

I think its a britishism - cuz there the judges and lawyers wears wigs to court?

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by SallyBrown

I wholeheartedly agree about the wholesale negative opinion having more of an effect on the "hater" rather than the "hated". So while it will often initially bother me, in the end I just end up ignoring it because it's like... ok, welp, good luck with that, I'm just gonna go back to what I was doing, which is working really well for me AND doesn't involve hating people I've never even met (bonus!).

But the quoted part of the scenario feels like a bit of a stretch to me... I find it hard to believe that someone wouldn't know that the people on a psychotherapy forum have therapists. We may not all love our therapists, but some of us do. That doesn't mean no one's allowed to say they hate them, in fact they sure are and I don't debate that, but I find it hard to call "I enjoy hating someone you love" a helpful thing.

ETA: and yes this way off topic now. Just trying to explain what it's like for me personally, but I don't want to harp too much.

Was referring to the family members as therapists you mentioned in your original post.

But yes! Back on track now.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Rive.

My issue is that a select few throw stereotypes and generalisations around. This is where - and how - prejudice and discrimination originate. So, no, I am afraid it doesn't sit well (for me) to lump any one category of people together & condemn them all. There are dedicated Ts out there and it is a shame to castigate the whole lot.

But there are also those who throw generalizations around about how therapy is largely wonderful and pure. And objections to such generalizations are often painted as negative.

I do not think it is a level playing field. Seems there is a burden of proof on those who are critical of the system.