Hello DocJohn,

I don't know if you read Monitcello's post:

https://forums.psychcentral.com/depr...2-im-done.html

As a doctor yourself, I'd be interested to know how you feel about that post.

I also noticed a thread describing how to trap or frame a medical provider including recording them without their knowledge.

On another thread, a moderator suggested that it is okay to insult or demean one's therapist provided that you are insulting and demeaning them as a therapist, not as a person. I personally don't want to be in the business of insulting or demeaning anyone; on or off PC. Doctor or not.

[unaluna]

On another thread, a moderator suggested that it is okay to insult or demean one's therapist provided that you are insulting and demeaning them as a therapist, not as a person. I personally don't want to be in the business of insulting or demeaning anyone; on or off PC. Doctor or not.

I found the "demeaning" thread upsetting, so i simply did not respond to it, nor did i follow it, after the initial reading. I dont like to think of myself that way either.

OTOH, in another community feedback thread, someone associated one-liners with innate meanness and sarcasm. What, like the Golden Rule? Since when is it a personality defect to NOT have to write "tl;dr" at the end of your post?

I'm a mother. I read posts about mother bashing all the time. And all of our mothers apparently were narcissists. Just saying....

I do feel bad anyone feels ostracized, been in that place myself, including here. You can get past it, but it can be more difficult if you have depression. I used to want my account deleted all the time but have since quit going that route.

I have not seen any posts suggesting that every mother in the world is bad and uncaring. There are a lot of terrible mothers in the world. And fathers. Bad parenting and abuse are at the root of a lot of mental health problems (though not all) so it's not surprising that recalling memories of bad parenting is common on a mental health website. Are all parents bad? Of course not. I never read a post suggesting that. And I don't see how that relates to a kind and intelligent physician choosing to leave PC because there are so many posts suggesting that all physicians are nefarious.

I have not read any posts where one person talks about any mother other than their own.

I guess that's what some people do when they're hurting.

[-jimi-]

If our doctors visit goes fine we might and might not mention it. But the times we're abused by doctors, it's really those times we need to talk about it. Being abused and told to shut up causes more trauma than if you're allowed to talk about what happened. People have worked hard to be allowed to mention abuse. When I was a kid, if you were bullied at school, you couldn't even talk about it. People would just hush you.

Health care staff are people too and make mistakes and evil acts same as other people, still doctors need to be the only group that can never be targeted I get suspicious. All the other groups just deal with it. They might need to work on their feelings a bit.

Or they could work in telemarketing for a while and see what THAT feels like...

[stopdog]

No therapists were harmed by the discussion of whether one can or cannot demean a therapist. Discussing the ideas or giving one's own opinions about those professions by anonymous strangers is not going to bring either profession to its knees. No one tried to insist that anyone else has to demean a therapist. There were discussions about whether it is even possible to demean those people or if it was something one could discuss with the therapist. If you don't want to demean or insult one of them, I don't think anyone here can make you do it.

Someone was harmed. My wonderful friend Monticello was harmed. He/she was logging on to PC in good faith. Tried to help people. Did indeed help me after a major crisis in my life even after his/her busy week caring for patients. Monticello took time out to ask how I was doing, to offer help and empathy.

Then Monticello was hurt by horrible posts about doctors. And yes, it is harmful to suggest that it's okay to demean and insult therapists. It is no longer considered okay to write negative things about Jews or people of color because over time humanity finally learned that such public writings were not only wrong but also harmful and dangerous. Repeatedly insulting and demeaning a group, any group, has harmful effects.

No Jimi. Nobody said doctors are without fault. You will not find that written anywhere on PC. Please do not put words in my mouth. There are good doctors and less than good doctors. Just like teachers, plumbers, lawyers, architects, dentists, and authors. But nobody on PC is telling people not to hire a plumber because they're going to be destroyed by them. Nobody is denigrating telemarketers as you suggested Jimi. Nobody is writing a step-by-step guide on how to trap and frame a teacher.

What about an individual who is terrified by the confusing pain of depression tonight? What if he logs on to PC thinking that tomorrow he will approach his MD for help. Then he reads posts about demeaning doctors, trapping doctors, and evil doctors. So he doesn't talk to his doctor about the depression. Then what? Do you folks have an answer for that? Do you want to be discouraging patients from seeking help? I know you don't. I know you care. So let's please start respecting doctors on PC.

Let's please start respecting everyone. Doctor or not. I'm talking about empathy. And decorum. I don't think that's too much to ask. Many of us are being insulted simply because of the work we do or because we don't want to participate in slamming OPs. It's not okay. I even read a thread tonight suggesting that a girl who doesn't wear a bra is inviting rape. What is going on? How is that supportive?

[stopdog]

But I don't respect therapists or mds - as a profession I just don't. I am not telling others what to do - I am only giving my experience and opinion. Nobody has to agree with me. I have never told someone else not to see one of those guys. I have said why I won't. I think people should be cautious when hiring a professional.

[Ohseedee]

I think some individuals may look at professionals (whether it be a doctor, therapist, nurse, etc) solely in their role and not consider the fact that they are more than their job title. They are human. They make mistakes and they can certainly have their feelings hurt.

I am in school to work in the mental health field someday, and I'm sure I'll come across people who don't like me, or say rude things to me. I think the best thing you can do in that situation is to first look at the constructive (or not so constructive) criticism and try to objectively look at it: is there any validity to what they are saying? Is there anything I need to change? If yes, work on improving and making those changes. If not, understand that this hurt is coming from the individual, it is not a reflection of you as a person.

Then Monticello was hurt by horrible posts about doctors.

If I was hurt by threads I kept reading and brought this topic up to my therapist, he'd say I was hurting myself by reading the content of the threads. He might also mention how this would in effect position myself in a victim role.

Psychiatrists and therapists label people with trauma histories as "personality disordered" in numerous books, journal articles, websites, blogs. In my opinion, it does not get more offensive, demeaning, and stigmatizing than that. People are labeled for life, affected not only by the original traumas, but repeated marginalization, discrimination, or stigmatization after being labeled, including poor healthcare treatment from medical providers. Marked in their medical records for life. Talk about horrible....

There are doctors, through publications and blogs, who explain how their depression is not a 'mental health condition' but rather that it's 'job burnout', setting themselves apart from the patients they treat.

There are also systematic problems in the medical industry, and I think that contributes to the more global language. I don't see threads that label all doctors as bad. Not saying they don't exist, but I don't recall coming across any like that. I recall one you mentioned was posted by someone revently gaslighted and traumatized by either therapists or doctors. Maybe its unempathetic to silence people who are hurting.

[DocJohn]

I feel like one needs to be in the right place in order to engage in a support community such as ours. Obviously we can't create a guideline that says, "Only say nice things about therapists, even if you've had a horrible experience." I think it's important and valuable that people understand there are good and bad therapists, just as there are in every profession.

That can be hard to hear when you're in the throes of depression or another disorder. I use to take such comments personally, but I've learned over the years that the comments are based upon actual experiences -- which cannot be ignored or put aside. Locally, a famous Fox News psychiatrist was just charged with having sexual relationships with 3 of his patients. So unethical behavior happens more than it should at all levels.

Should patients try and entrap their therapists or other healthcare provider? This depends on numerous variables, such as what exactly happened, whether you believe they're doing it to others, your own emotional strength, your state laws, your state's licensing board, and whether you're working with law enforcement. Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable trying to do that, but I can understand how a situation might be so bad that you feel like the professional is a danger to others. I like to leave law enforcement, however, up to the police.

Patients are used to professionals devaluing their experiences and suggesting that things are better than they are. And while I think a community such as ours is hardly an objective sample (so it should be taken with a grain of salt), I also believe we lose something if we try and silence these voices, or suggest they are lonely outliers. While I'd say unethical behavior is *not* the norm for either healthcare or mental health professionals, it does happen more often than either profession acknowledges. And that's one of the reasons we're here -- to acknowledge and give a voice to those whose voice is too often silenced.

[lizardlady]

HopefullyLost1211, may I suggest using the report button on the post you mentioned? That might get a faster response than posting here.

I'm sorry that a member was hurt by comments of posters. I hope they can find support elsewhere at PC. I'm a therapist, something I don't usually disclose in the forums because of the therapist bashing I see at times. It does hurt to be painted with the same brush as the bad apples in the profession. And, yes, I know there are therapists who should find another kind of work. For my own protection I avoid certain forums here at PC. Maybe your friend could try the same?

.....
oops! a couple of replies popped up while I was reading the linked thread and typing my response.

Doc John's reply is spot on. Folks need a space to vent. At the same time we all need to practice self care. If certain threads/forums are disturbing to a member, why not avoid them?

Adding clarification that the poster mentioned through the link didn't try to silence anyone. My response is to the idea of censorship here.

[DocJohn]

Yes. And of course, if you feel something violates a community guideline, please use the report button so we can look at it. We have something like 1000 new posts/day, so obviously can't look at every single one of them unless someone reports it.

I do not agree with your perspective on these particular issues DocJohn but it does explain a lot about the site. Thank you for replying. Take care.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by DocJohn

...That can be hard to hear when you're in the throes of depression or another disorder.

Ive come to prefer the PC spelling "throws" of depression - it seems more apt