[MattMVS7]

Who you are as a person is nothing compared to your feelings of pleasure. Pleasure is superior to emotionless robots and people who don't have pleasure due to either depression or anhedonia (emotional numbness) are the equivalent to emotionless robots. You would still be nothing more than the equivalent to an inferior biological robot regardless of how much others value you, what great things you do in life, and how much you help others if you lived a life without pleasure. Even if who you are as a person does have human value and is not something "robotic," you would still be an utterly inferior human being because pleasure is the greatest thing about you in life and to lose it would make you inferior. So even if you were a psychopath like Hitler who slaughtered many innocent people, as long as you have pleasure, that would make you the better person. You would even be far better than a depressed and emotionally numb innocent person who instead helped many people around the world. So this is the reason why people with nice happy lives are the better people.

I believe in hedonism and hedonism states that pleasure is the only greatest thing in life. Everything else in life is nothing compared to pleasure. So this is the reason why pleasure is the only greatest thing about you as a person and to lose that would basically make you nothing as a person. My personal experience of pleasure also says to me that it is the greatest thing in life and that nothing else in life or about you as a person ever compares (even if you were a person who values the pleasure of others and lived solely to bring others pleasure). The fact is, you have lost your own pleasure if you had depression or anhedonia and you would still be nothing more than an inferior biological robot even if you instead lived solely to bring others pleasure. Yes, the pleasure of others matters just as greatly as your own. But you would still be nothing as a person without your own pleasure.

Hedonism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Mikeyboy]

[Hellion]

Well now I feel so much better about my life....knowing that being unable to experience pleasure makes one an inferior being, guess I need more drugs if I want to stop being inferior.

[tigerlily84]

So are you saying that you are one of the happy superior people or are you down here with the rest of us emotionless robots?

[Hellion]

^Im guessing the latter...I'm thinking since it is the depression forum, though still couldn't help my initial response because that reflects how the post makes me feel.

[tigerlily84]

You're probably right Hellion. I'm sorry it got to you. Hopefully it wasn't intentional on the part of the OP.

To the OP: what was the purpose of your post? You do realize that you can't experience pleasure all of the time, don't you? Sure pleasure is great, but life has a mixture of both. Maybe you can shed some light on your reasoning for us.

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by Hellion

^Im guessing the latter...I'm thinking since it is the depression forum, though still couldn't help my initial response because that reflects how the post makes me feel.

Increasing your pleasure by taking drugs would make you more superior based on my beliefs in my opening post.

There are people who live their entire lives with depression and can never get better or fully recover (they can never overcome their suffering). Based on my reasonings in my opening post, these would be the most inferior people of all. Even I am having depression and severe chronic anhedonia and I would be inferior and I would be the most inferior person if I could never get better or fully recover.

[vonmoxie]

I've no doubt that in the face of depression and anhedonia, pure hedonism can look like a magic pill. As it would simply be replacing one set of problems for another, in taking on this fantasy world where you are somehow unaffected by behaving without regard for the ethical treatment or welfare of others, I sincerely hope the OP is rethinking the role hedonism could play in either recovery or in meaningful ongoing satisfaction.

Really, a little hedonism just between friends goes a long way anyway, can be perfectly beautiful without becoming tainted with the contexts of achieving superiority to others, or not caring about others' welfare.

To see how it doesn't work, just look at the 70's. It was the "me" generation, and what we got out of all that selfish thinking was a bunch of assholes. We got the 80's as a result. Hippies became yuppies, became guys like the one Michael Douglas played in "Wall Street", who drained the country of money and heart. It's a failing endeavor. Everyone loses.

[Altered Moment]

MattMVS7
I have read all your posts in this forum including your other most recent one.
I am very glad to hear your goal is to overcome your depression and anhedonia so you can experience pleasure.

I believe that once you overcome those things you will discover that humans have evolved to experience pleasure in many ways. Satisfaction, contentment, inner peace, the respect of others, helping others, music, art, culture, reading, writing, close relationships, marriage, parenthood, and a wide host of things that would fall into the definition of hedonism.

If you define hedonism as limited to much baser instinctual things such as eating, sex, drugs etc. I think you will find that those are rather shallow and do not bring a ton of pleasure in and of themselves.

Doing drugs for example usually leads to much more misery than pleasure. A night of heavy drinking and sex brings much pleasure but the next day brings a bad hangover and feelings of shame. A week on a meth high brings 4 or 5 days of pure misery and come down. In the long run aside from hangovers, come downs and withdrawals they bring tons of misery because of the effects they have on your life.

Hedonism is a school of thought that argues that pleasure is the primary or most important intrinsic good.[1] In very simple terms, a hedonist strives to maximize net pleasure (pleasure minus pain).

Ethical hedonism is the idea that all people have the right to do everything in their power to achieve the greatest amount of pleasure possible to them, assuming that their actions do not infringe on the equal rights of others. It is also the idea that every person's pleasure should far surpass their amount of pain. Ethical hedonism is said to have been started by Aristippus of Cyrene, a student of Socrates. He held the idea that pleasure is the highest good.[2]

If helping others brings you pleasure and adds to the greater good it could be considered hedonism.

Edit- by the way Hilter's reign of power lasted 12 years and in the end he committed suicide so I am not sure how seeking pleasure in that way worked out for him.

[lilypup]

I'm a member of MENSA and have no idea in hell what you are talking about.

[flours]

that's probably sarcasm, right? anyway, I think being alive without the perspective of pleasure seems like a much bigger achievement than only seeking one's own enjoyment. much bigger.

[MattMVS7]

Also, there are innocent people with nice happy lives with little to no struggles who help others suffering and achieve great things in their lives just as good as (and even better) than those people who do through their suffering and despair. Therefore, suffering and despair is truly pointless and all that matters is being happy in life and giving others pleasure through your own pleasure and through your nice happy life free of suffering.

Who you are as a person (in this case, being a psychopath like Hitler) is neither inferior nor superior to someone who helps and cares for other people because who you are as a person is nothing more than biological robotic functions and has no value whatsoever (whether positive or negative) compared to pleasure. It's only your amount of pleasure that makes you the better person. So this is the reason why people with nice happy lives are the better people. As for feelings of pleasure that are obtained from eating tasty foods (which I wouldn't even call pleasure at all--just simply a tasty sensation), these types of pleasure have no value and don't make you a better person. It's the other types of pleasure such as love, joy, motivation, empowerment, etc. (the "powerful" and "human-defining" feelings of pleasure), these are what make you the better person.

All of those "greater" feelings of pleasure I just mentioned, they all have equal value. Not having one of them would make you a lesser person. But despite the fact that Hitler has no love, he would still be better than an emotionally numb person who can't feel any form of pleasure whatsoever, but helped many people and gave them pleasure. Also, people with mania are even more superior than people who have a normal full amount of pleasure in life because these people experience pleasure to a degree that is beyond what a normal human being would experience. So a person with manic depression would be superior human beings in their manic state and would be inferior biological robots in their depressed state.

Now if pleasure wasn't all that important in life, then why do so many people who have anhedonia and depression feel suicidal and that there lives are basically worthless without feelings of pleasure?

[vonmoxie]

No one is superior. People who think that they are, need to think that they are: and thusly, aren't. Sorry. Plain truth.

[unaluna]

I think matt is just trying to find an evolutionary reason to be happy, like if you can be happy, you have a better chance of surviving and passing on your genes, so thats why it would be considered "superior". If you read his other threads and some of the posts here, i dont think hes arguing that "im better than you are" - its more like, what is the optimal, natural state for a human being and why? Its more philosophical.

We dont really have a philosophy forum.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by MattMVS7

Increasing your pleasure by taking drugs would make you more superior based on my beliefs in my opening post.

There are people who live their entire lives with depression and can never get better or fully recover (they can never overcome their suffering). Based on my reasonings in my opening post, these would be the most inferior people of all. Even I am having depression and severe chronic anhedonia and I would be inferior and I would be the most inferior person if I could never get better or fully recover.

Why do you think this though? I mean just not so sure missing out on that part of human existence makes one inferior per say, maybe makes it harder to function and generally feels like crap but inferior seems to be a stretch...to me I feel blissful ignorance would be an inferior state to be in...

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by MattMVS7

Also, there are innocent people with nice happy lives with little to no struggles who help others suffering and achieve great things in their lives just as good as (and even better) than those people who do through their suffering and despair. Therefore, suffering and despair is truly pointless and all that matters is being happy in life and giving others pleasure through your own pleasure and through your nice happy life free of suffering.

Who you are as a person (in this case, being a psychopath like Hitler) is neither inferior nor superior to someone who helps and cares for other people because who you are as a person is nothing more than biological robotic functions and has no value whatsoever (whether positive or negative) compared to pleasure. It's only your amount of pleasure that makes you the better person. So this is the reason why people with nice happy lives are the better people. As for feelings of pleasure that are obtained from eating tasty foods (which I wouldn't even call pleasure at all--just simply a tasty sensation), these types of pleasure have no value and don't make you a better person. It's the other types of pleasure such as love, joy, motivation, empowerment, etc. (the "powerful" and "human-defining" feelings of pleasure), these are what make you the better person.

All of those "greater" feelings of pleasure I just mentioned, they all have equal value. Not having one of them would make you a lesser person. But despite the fact that Hitler has no love, he would still be better than an emotionally numb person who can't feel any form of pleasure whatsoever, but helped many people and gave them pleasure. Also, people with mania are even more superior than people who have a normal full amount of pleasure in life because these people experience pleasure to a degree that is beyond what a normal human being would experience. So a person with manic depression would be superior human beings in their manic state and would be inferior biological robots in their depressed state.

Now if pleasure wasn't all that important in life, then why do so many people who have anhedonia and depression feel suicidal and that there lives are basically worthless without feelings of pleasure?

Not so sure Hitler was really enjoying life and experiencing all that much pleasure...but that is just the impression I get. Also of course pleasure is important in life and not experiencing it or having difficulties experiencing it obviously is going to contribute to feeling suicidal since its part of human needs we aren't designed for constant suffering/misery. Its important but not sure it would be a good measure to base peoples 'worth' on....I'd say it can be an inferior state of mind since it sucks and i function better when it lightens up some though.

[waterknob1234]

Hitler was a destructive and evil person. Life sometimes gives pleasure, and sometimes gives hardship, and then there are those of us who suffer depression. I do not believe that living a life of pleasure makes a person superior to people who suffer depression. I do not believe that one person is superior or inferior to another. Rather, I believe we are all beautiful and special people whether we are living in pleasure or hardship. What gives our life meaning in the long haul of things is what we do for others and what we do to try and make a better world.

I never went to a funeral where the eulogist spoke highly about the deceased because they were rich, happy, or had a good life. But rather, people seem to be remembered at funerals for what kind of person they were at heart, what they did, and what they did for others. Just my thoughts.

[MattMVS7]

I believe in evolution and that our sole purpose is to survive. In other words, the phrase "survival of the fittest" is our motto in life and is our only purpose in living. Those with anhedonia and depression as well as other major problems are the most unfit for survival (the weakest) while those with nice happy lives are the most fit for survival (the strongest) and that is what makes these happy people superior. We are nothing special or strong for having suffered and for moving forward in life despite our suffering because we would still be unfit for survival (weak). However, pleasure is the only strength in life and all other aspects of you as a human being (your thoughts, knowledge, and attitude in moving forward in life), these are not strengths at all. They are nothing more than biological robotic functions that a highly intelligent and well-designed biological robot from the future that has no ability to love or experience pleasure would possess. So people with anhedonia and depression would still be nothing more than inferior biological robots even with the attitude of moving forward in life, in helping others, and in doing great things in their lives.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by hankster

I think matt is just trying to find an evolutionary reason to be happy, like if you can be happy, you have a better chance of surviving and passing on your genes, so thats why it would be considered "superior". If you read his other threads and some of the posts here, i dont think hes arguing that "im better than you are" - its more like, what is the optimal, natural state for a human being and why? Its more philosophical.

We dont really have a philosophy forum.

Like eugenics?

Perhaps you are right, but if it is an examination of what might be experienced as an optimal state, it's an unusually inflammatory one. For instance, having lost loved ones to the far end of severity of bipolar disorder, it's a bit discomfiting to hear one of its poles being described as a superior state, since without the existence of those poles in tandem, certain persons I have known might still be here.

The reference to Hitler certainly seems to go beyond the possibility of being innocently inflammatory.

Anyway, it is indeed my own philosophical belief that no person is superior to any other. Looking at us from far enough away I'm sure that we look like one single, messy organism.

[Altered Moment]

If we agree that the higher forms of pleasure like love, caring, satisfaction from helping others, hope, being a father or son, etc. etc. are indeed forms of pleasure and even hedonistic, are you saying that someone who is experiencing depression is incapable of experiencing those things???

I can tell you it is not true from direct experience. Even when in the most severe depressions I am able to feel love for my daughter. I am capable of accepting the love, caring, and help of others with gratitude. Gratitude is a form of pleasure. I can find satisfaction in helping others. Even be content and at peace at the same time as being in a very suicidal depression.

Your thinking is rather black and white and life is an infinite number of shades of grey.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MattMVS7]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

If we agree that the higher forms of pleasure like love, caring, satisfaction from helping others, hope, being a father or son, etc. etc. are indeed forms of pleasure and even hedonistic, are you saying that someone who is experiencing depression is incapable of experiencing those things???

I can tell you it is not true from direct experience. Even when in the most severe depressions I am able to feel love for my daughter. I am capable of accepting the love, caring, and help of others with gratitude. Gratitude is a form of pleasure. I can find satisfaction in helping others. Even be content and at peace at the same time as being in a very suicidal depression.

Your thinking is rather black and white and life is an infinite number of shades of grey.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have anhedonia (emotional numbness) and I am unable to experience any love or any other form of pleasure.

[Altered Moment]

I would be willing to bet that you get some satisfaction, a form of pleasure, in posting here and explaining to us your thoughts, feelings, and theories on the matter. There is some interest in doing so or you wouldn't do it.

It seems to me you are letting a label and it's definition totally define you as a person. We do not fit so neatly in psychology's little boxes. We are very complex.

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[Hellion]

Originally Posted by MattMVS7

I believe in evolution and that our sole purpose is to survive. In other words, the phrase "survival of the fittest" is our motto in life and is our only purpose in living. Those with anhedonia and depression as well as other major problems are the most unfit for survival (the weakest) while those with nice happy lives are the most fit for survival (the strongest) and that is what makes these happy people superior. We are nothing special or strong for having suffered and for moving forward in life despite our suffering because we would still be unfit for survival (weak). However, pleasure is the only strength in life and all other aspects of you as a human being (your thoughts, knowledge, and attitude in moving forward in life), these are not strengths at all. They are nothing more than biological robotic functions that a highly intelligent and well-designed biological robot from the future that has no ability to love or experience pleasure would possess. So people with anhedonia and depression would still be nothing more than inferior biological robots even with the attitude of moving forward in life, in helping others, and in doing great things in their lives.

But by that logic wouldn't pleasure also just be a useless product of biology so therefore biological robotic function? Why is pleasure any more special than anything else?

[Abe Froman]

I guess I'm a big piece of crap since I am compelled to help people whenever I can, I should have killed 6 million people like Hitler so I could be happy in this life

[Melinae]

Sorry, I lol'ed at some parts of this thread.... lol