[BudFox]

Would like to hear what others have learned or experienced with respect to physiological contributors to depression and effective ways to address them.

I'm not talking about the "chemical imbalance" myth and marketing campaign that props up the psych drug biz. I'm talking about real physiological factors.

I'm not dismissing emotional, social, familial factors. Seems this is the biggest piece of the puzzle.

But the advice is nearly always -- you need drugs, or therapy, or both. And what's left out is the entire body and its connection to the mind.

How many who have been declared "mentally ill" by the mainstream medical system are in fact suffering from undiagnosed systemic disease?

Examples:
- thyroid or other hormone dysfunction
- nutrient deficiencies (B12, D, EFAs, Magnesium, Zinc, B6)
- chronic inflammation of the brain (encephalitis) from autoimmune, inflammatory, or infectious disease
- neurotoxins from parasitic/infectious organisms, mold exposure, mercury/metals toxicity
- diseases of the gut

[vonmoxie]

I have a rare connective tissue disorder (Ehlers Danlos syndrome) that most closely mirrors (and is most often misdiagnosed as) chronic fatigue syndrome in terms of weakness and fatigue, but which is generally much more painful and dangerous. Have had it all my life but spent the first three quarters of my life undiagnosed. When I was a kid and too weak for instance to do even one complete pull-up, despite being desperate to do so in order that other kids wouldn't look at me funny, I was told that I wasn't weak; only lazy. With my extremely pale, thin, and sickly appearance I struggled to make friends, and was bullied mercilessly -- and having very complicated dynamics in my home I was without safe haven anywhere.

Many who have my disorder struggle with depression, but it's hard to separate that from all of the dynamics that tend to come with it, even in the few cases where it is diagnosed early; not to mention severe pain and other comorbid physical discomforts which are also significantly impactful to psychological survival. For those not diagnosed early, the frustration of being faulted for effects of the body which one has little to no control over is extremely devaluing.

I think that a great deal of difficult psychological damage occurred for me as a direct result of my disorder and its effects, although the responsibility for that is shared with the unsafe environment I experienced in my home life, so it's hard for me to say exactly how much.

And although my mother loved the attention she got taking me to the pediatrician on a fairly frequent basis, she loved the answer she got from him which was along the lines of "she's fine" and "she'll grow out of it" whatever that meant. She was more worried about hearing that she was doing all she could do as a mom (even if she wasn't) than about getting me real help with what were pretty apparent medical difficulties.

What I have is known as an invisible disability, because it is, but even now my mother will kvetch and moan about how she saw someone park in a handicapped spot (she just got her permit though I still haven't heard on what basis) who looked perfectly healthy to her, and how she shot them a dirty look for "taking her spot". I try to remind her to consider that you can't tell by looking at someone, and she just says "Invisible disability, B.S.!"

[BudFox]

Vonmoxie: Wow that sounds rough, sorry you have been through that. Must have been hell for you as a kid, not knowing what was going on.

I was dx'd with Lyme disease 5 yrs ago and have suffered increasingly serious depression. But as you say it is difficult to separate direct effects of the disease from the dynamics it creates. I became ill, somewhat depressed, then isolated, then more depressed, then more ill, etc.

My illness is largely invisible also. So many people say I don't look sick, while inside I am suffering. I also have fatigue, often extreme. It rules my life.

I have a type of autoimmune arthritis that took around 5 years to be diagnosed. During that time, my depression got pretty much untreatable with "medication plus therapy".

After the arthritis was diagnosed and I started taking medication to counteract the autoimmune inflammation and dysfunction, my mood slowly improved and I became responsive to antidepressants again.

I also have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome, which is an immune-mediated condition. I have found that my mood problems usually get worse when my autoimmune/immune system problems get worse.

Other items on your list that I've had problems with for long periods of time are low vitamin D3 levels, low B-12 levels, and various forms of anemia (oops, that last one wasn't from your list but it definitely seems to affect my mood.)

Another thing that I think is often associated with depression and anxiety is dysautonomia.

Thanks for this topic. I think it's important to treat and to think about our mood dysfunctions from all fronts, and physiological dysfunction is one that often gets overlooked.

[eeyorestail]

I am on medicine for hypothyroidism. My thyroid levels were checked many times over the years but didn't test as abnormal until about 3 years ago. I'm on medicine for that, and was told it might also help with my depression, but honestly I never noticed a difference.

Two or three times my vitamin D levels have tested as low and I was put on prescription-level vitamins for a time. I did not really see a difference then either.

I'm assuming that even if the treatments didn't make me feel better, maybe not having the treatments would have made me feel worse? In any case, even if it doesn't affect my depression, it's important for my physical health that these things are in check, especially my thyroid.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by jo_thorne

I think it's important to treat and to think about our mood dysfunctions from all fronts, and physiological dysfunction is one that often gets overlooked.

So true; I often forget about it myself in terms of psychological effects, because psych practitioners are naturally more inclined to treat what aspects they are trained to, almost as if they exist in a vacuum (brain in a jar!), and not so much holistically with consideration of the physiological. It's the same trouble medical professionals tend to have.. everyone's a specialist, and hardly anybody looks at these things in a connected way.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by jo_thorne

I have a type of autoimmune arthritis that took around 5 years to be diagnosed. During that time, my depression got pretty much untreatable with "medication plus therapy".

After the arthritis was diagnosed and I started taking medication to counteract the autoimmune inflammation and dysfunction, my mood slowly improved and I became responsive to antidepressants again.

I also have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome, which is an immune-mediated condition. I have found that my mood problems usually get worse when my autoimmune/immune system problems get worse.

Other items on your list that I've had problems with for long periods of time are low vitamin D3 levels, low B-12 levels, and various forms of anemia (oops, that last one wasn't from your list but it definitely seems to affect my mood.)

Another thing that I think is often associated with depression and anxiety is dysautonomia.

Thanks for this topic. I think it's important to treat and to think about our mood dysfunctions from all fronts, and physiological dysfunction is one that often gets overlooked.

I have similar issues. Chronic fatigue, depression, though very little of the joint and pain stuff. I also have ANS problems big time, though I have never thought of it in terms of a disease (the dysautonomia label). I think it's a symptom of Lyme disease (gets into brain and nervous sys tissues), toxicity, emotional and physical trauma, chronic stress.

I know when you get dx'd with something, you start to see it everywhere, but I wonder if for you Lyme is the/an underlying cause of your issues. Lot of controversy, but some are saying it is becoming a modern plague.

I know when you get dx'd with something, you start to see it everywhere, but I wonder if for you Lyme is the/an underlying cause of your issues. Lot of controversy, but some are saying it is becoming a modern plague.

I don't know. I was tested for it a couple of times. The last time was after the diagnostic test was supposed to be "improved".

I had not read anything about Lyme disease for years until about a year ago when a friend of mine here developed an inflammatory joint condition and she and I discussed the possibility that she might have Lyme disease.

I was shocked at what I read about how the bacterium associated with Lyme disease can hide in the body and cause it to become a chronic condition. The friend eventually ended up being diagnosed with autoimmune arthritis and her symptoms responded very quickly to an anti-TNF medication.

I have a classic case of the type of autoimmune arthritis that I have and it responds well to anti-TNF meds as well.

My fibromyalgia pain dropped to maybe 10% of what it used to be once I started taking SNRI antidepressants for it.

Still, I am left with a very low energy level. Or maybe I should say a low quantity of energy. If I keep my activity level low and get good nutrition and regular sleep, the quality of my energy is pretty good. There's just not nearly enough of it to do the things I want to do. If I try to do too much, though, everything unravels.

I think I have greatly lowered my expectations over the years. Nowadays if I'm not in severe pain and not suicidal, I think that's pretty good.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

So true; I often forget about it myself in terms of psychological effects, because psych practitioners are naturally more inclined to treat what aspects they are trained to, almost as if they exist in a vacuum (brain in a jar!), and not so much holistically with consideration of the physiological. It's the same trouble medical professionals tend to have.. everyone's a specialist, and hardly anybody looks at these things in a connected way.

Yes! That is one of the main things I have been saying for years. Everyone is a bloody specialist. Therapists, dentists, dermatologists, gastroenterologists… just a few of the specialties I have had experience with. In all cases the focus was so narrow that it was very much "brain (or gut, mouth, skin) in a jar" approach.

But I have also worked with MDs, NDs, herbalists, even a dentist or two, who had impressive working knowledge of the whole person. Harder to find and usually outside insurance networks and other institutional controls.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by jo_thorne

I don't know. I was tested for it a couple of times. The last time was after the diagnostic test was supposed to be "improved".

I had not read anything about Lyme disease for years until about a year ago when a friend of mine here developed an inflammatory joint condition and she and I discussed the possibility that she might have Lyme disease.

I was shocked at what I read about how the bacterium associated with Lyme disease can hide in the body and cause it to become a chronic condition. The friend eventually ended up being diagnosed with autoimmune arthritis and her symptoms responded very quickly to an anti-TNF medication.

Don't take it from me, but there is so much controversy and confusion in Lyme testing, that a negative lab result might mean absolutely nothing.

A mainstream ID doc will tell you the chronic form does not even exist. There is unfathomable political/financial corruption behind all this. The subject of senate investigations and anti-trust lawsuits against the IDSA (they write the Lyme guidelines) in the US.

Yes the microbe can camouflage itself, change its form, and hide out in areas of the body where the immune sys has limited access (including nerve and brain tissue).

If conventional medicine treats the autoimmune arthritis and someone feels better, maybe that's all they need, I dunno. But without identifying the root cause, I would wonder whether a price will be paid later.

BTW, if you read up online, eventually you will start seeing connections between Lyme and lot of the neuro-degenerative disease like MS, ALS, Parkinsons, Alzheimers. Might seem like Lyme hysteria, but it's intriguing. Apparently both Michael J Fox and Linda Ronstadt were diagnosed and treated (briefly) for Lyme disease, then went on to develop Parkinson's.

[BudFox]

BTW, not to turn this into an obsessive Lyme thread, but here is very revealing blurb about Lyme and mental illness, from a Psychiatrist no less…

-------------------
"Doctors can destroy patients by telling them that a true, physical disease is all in the head,” says Psychiatrist Virginia Sherr of Holland, Pennsylvania…In the Lyme hot zone of Bucks County, she sees a new case of Lyme encephalopathy every week. “I am a Psychiatrist. These are not people who are referred to me because they have Lyme disease – they are sent because they have panic attacks, hallucinations, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and depression. They are in agony – not only neuropsychiatric pain, but physical pain as well. They have never been hypochondriacal in their lives, but that is how they are labeled. They are encephalopathic, but they have been told they are not by physicians who wouldn’t know a case of encephalopathy if they fell over it. They are physically sick, but are blamed by doctors who say: "You belong to a cult if you think you have Lyme," or "You look okay to me."

Iv'e been diagnosed 'Atypical Depressive' in addition to my bipolar. One of the symptoms is physical fatigue marked by a sense of weights pulling the body down to the ground. Sometimes standing or sitting up straight seems so difficult. The worse my depressive mood the worse this symptom. And the worse the sensations the worse my mood, and so on.

My pdoc has me taking yoga at the hospital in an effort to learn techniques to stretch, breathe, and meditate to try and alleviate this really odd condition. It hasn't made the sensation go away but it has helped. Naturally when I'm in public the sensation can be constant. I can't very well break into downward dog in the middle of the grocery store, can I? hahaha

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

I'm generally pretty healthy, but I went in for a physical recently and the doctor told me my thyroid is slightly enlarged. This is most likely the reason my hair is always dry, why my eating habits feel so weird...and it could be contributing to my depression. I haven't been able to get it checked out, but I wonder what that could do for me.

I've also noticed that diet helps. When Im living on processed crap, my mood is a lot less stable. When I eat well, I'm calmer and less reactive.

Also, what's this about chemical imbalances being a myth?

[vital]

Originally Posted by BudFox

But the advice is nearly always -- you need drugs, or therapy, or both.

Hi BudFox,

Yeah, "meds + therapy" always makes me think of this article from the Onion

New Study Finds Therapy, Antidepressants Equally Effective At Monetizing Depression - The Onion - America's Finest News Source

Originally Posted by BudFox

Would like to hear what others have learned or experienced with respect to physiological contributors to depression and effective ways to address them.

I definitely had a thyroid problem and a vitamin D deficiency (apparently most of the population has a vitamin D deficiency!) that made a difference to my mental state.

I take a range of supplements now (basically what's recommended by Mark Hyman) and I have improved my diet. Because I did a bunch of things at once, it's hard to tell what effect each supplement has. My latest addition is eating sauerkraut at most meals for the probiotic effect. That seems to have a positive effect on me too!

I'm not sure if you have this in mind as "physiological", but long walks and Yoga definitely work for me, particularly including the "Pranayama" (breathing) part of Yoga.

- vital

One of the symptoms is physical fatigue marked by a sense of weights pulling the body down to the ground. Sometimes standing or sitting up straight seems so difficult.

That is also common in people with fibromyalgia or people with hypermobile joints (can be Ehler-Danos syndrome but isn't always that severe).

I have that problem. Or at least, I have it to some degree. I don't know what degree of severity you're talking about. When it's bad for me, I will take any chance I get to lie down or sit down and put my feet up. It feels like gravity is beating up on me.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by rcat

Iv'e been diagnosed 'Atypical Depressive' in addition to my bipolar. One of the symptoms is physical fatigue marked by a sense of weights pulling the body down to the ground. Sometimes standing or sitting up straight seems so difficult. The worse my depressive mood the worse this symptom. And the worse the sensations the worse my mood, and so on.

What do you think is at the root of all this? I wonder if a different sort healthcare might reveal something?

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

I'm generally pretty healthy, but I went in for a physical recently and the doctor told me my thyroid is slightly enlarged. This is most likely the reason my hair is always dry, why my eating habits feel so weird...and it could be contributing to my depression. I haven't been able to get it checked out, but I wonder what that could do for me.

I've also noticed that diet helps. When Im living on processed crap, my mood is a lot less stable. When I eat well, I'm calmer and less reactive.

Also, what's this about chemical imbalances being a myth?

Here's an article on thyroid and mental illness:
The Link Between Mental Illness and Hypothyroid Disease

Chemical imbalance myth thing… I am making what I see as a distinction between known physiological factors that affect the brain, vs the psychiatry narrative.

[BudFox]

Hi vital, thanks for the Onion article, used to read them all the time, outstanding stuff.

I have seen you mention Hyman in other threads. His is the type of approach that makes so much sense to me. Identifying and addressing actual causes of illness. His book was a huge turning point for me in understanding health.