[yagr]

I an curious as to whether anyone else struggles with the idea that the psychiatric community is the last word on defining DID? In order to be clear, let me give an analogy:

It is as if people with DID are the only ones in the world who can see in color, but we define ourselves according to how the psychiatric community explains the color orange. Without experiencing the color orange for themselves (or any color actually) they listen to our explanation and then present themselves as the experts. I reject this categorically. We are the experts.

Worse, to me, is the idea that we change our view of what orange really is by adapting to their ever changing view. For instance, and a pretty benign example, we don't have alters any longer - we have parts. An example of something more harmful, in my opinion, is the idea that DID can only be caused by actions prior to the age of five years old.

Research Project Bluebird - here's a link or you can find your own: Project Bluebird

Prior to age five eh? No worries, the psychiatric community will sort itself out and reframe DID again - and again - and again and one of these days they might even get it completely right but on that day they will simply join us as the experts on this condition rather than supplant us.

That is so disgusting...here we denounce Nazi Germany as evil human thugs but take in the worst of them to further our own evil agendas- I wouldn't put it past governments to do so, even to use their own population as guinea pigs unbeknownst to them.

Would it really be DID? I've heard of it being called "programming or coditioning" of prisoners because it was intentional.

Who knows?...I don't. I'm just one affected...and I wasn't a Manchurian prisoner.

[yagr]

Originally Posted by AlwaysChanging2

That is so disgusting...

Agreed.

Originally Posted by AlwaysChanging2

Would it really be DID? I've heard of it being called "programming or coditioning" of prisoners because it was intentional.

That's a great question and all I can offer is speculation but I do think it is noteworthy that the author of the summary (and the associated book) is Dr. Colin Ross. As the past president of the International Society for the Study of Dissociation, he chose to title the piece as "Deliberate Creation of Multiple Personality by Psychiatrists". 'Multiple Personality' was the term of the day when he wrote this - so we know that at least he thought that this was an apples to apples comparison.

[amandalouise]

Here in the USA the people who decide what mental disorders are and their diagnostic criteria for it is, is a panel of psychiatrists called the American Psychiatric Association.

periodically they take the existing mental disorders and diagnostics under review along with input from psychiatrists, therapists, medical doctors around the world who fill in questionaires/ surveys/ census taking process on what types of people they treat, what their symptoms / problems/ mental disorders are. they also get input from the american public and the mentally ill by way of their website inviting the public and the mentally ill to help them with this process by filling out their questionaire/surveys and feedback forms.

then when they have all the information they need from treatment providers, people with mental illness and the general public they start their revisions and deliberations and proposals. again keeping everyone in the loop and asking everyones opinions/ feedback by way of their website. then after years of this process they have formulated what is presently the mental disorders here in america and what the american diagnostics for them are.

as for the bluebird link if I remember correctly that was posted\wrote many years ago.

with todays presently used whats in that link is no longer called DID here in ameica. its now called OSDD (Other Specified Dissociative Disorder) specifier number 2 which states....

2. Identity disturbance due to prolonged and intensive coercive persuasion: individuals who have been subjected to intensive coercive persuasion (e.g. brainwashing, thought reform, indoctrination while captive torture, long term political imprisonment, recruitment by sects/cults or by terror organizations) may present with prolonged changes in or conscious questioning of, their identity.

one thing about america is that many if not all USA states now make it illegal and unethical for a treatment provider to deliberately create DID. its now grounds for arrest / prison time and loss of credentials never to work as a treatment provider in the USA again situation. these laws came about 10-15 or more years ago in response to many treatment providers being sued by their patients for causing them to have various mental disorders that they did not already have, through the use of brain washing and other harmful ways.

the age of onset of DID comes from american psychiatric surveys and statistics that treatment providers have documented based on what their clients have told them. (here in america treatment providers must fill in health department and insurance, licensing and census reports / surveys / questionaires for periodic census taking that all american's go through every few years (yes the same ones where they find out what cities and towns there are in the USA, population and other things)

other countries may have other ways of deciding what is and isnt a mental disorder, its criteria and demographics like age of onset.

[kecanoe]

Wow. Makes it sound like my DID could have been inflicted on me as an adult. Yikes.

[ruh roh]

I didn't read thoroughly, but I am familiar with the practice of psychiatric effery and its application for military purposes. I don't see how it affects people for whom d id and other forms of dissociation came about from non-controlled real life experiences, though. I mean, it makes sense that a young person whose personality is disrupted by trauma would have an effect on how their mind adapted, and that the younger a person is, the more likely that will happen in extreme situations. I can also see how scientists would try to recreate in a controlled way, how to do something similar. In a way, it validates the existence of d id.

No authority has got it right, in my opinion. But in trying to replicate it (unethically), they do validate that it occurs naturally in life.

[Michael W. Harris]

It is extremely easy to traumatize a newborn to five year old child. It does not have to be severe physical abuse during these years. It can be emotional and psychological trauma. Most parents of humans with dissociative disorders had horrible parenting skills and were unaware that they were traumatizing their toddlers. That is true in my case at least.

My Mom was so angry that her Mother spanked her for trying to abuse or bully her younger sisters that she let my older brother torment me during the first five years of my life. The abuse continued up until the age of 16. My Mom got me to believe that it was normal so I could not feel anger over the abuse. She took away my right to feel angry over the abuse and all I could feel was grief. My brother would not have gotten away with breaking me, psychologically and emotionally, if Mom had not programmed me to accept the abuse as normal.

Mom did other things like put welts all over my two year old legs with a switch because I marked on the wall with a crayon. It looked like I ran through a briar patch. She abandoned me at Riches in downtown Atlanta when I was three to four years old because I wet my pants. The staff found me wandering around crying and took me to the day care center. My Mom did not see a problem with her parenting skills. (I now understand that I went through my childhood with what mental health professionals have termed "battered wife syndrome" which is basically shock and PTSD.)

After five the traumas have to be more serious to cause dissociative disorders at least from what I have read.

The other thing Mom did to me relates to the Blue Bird experiments. My Mom had been an officer in the Navy during WWII. She was discharged as a full lieutenant. I think that may be an ensign. She had this cookbook on how to put someone under hypnosis. I read it as a teenager but did not relate it to my problems at that time. She would whisper to me to put me to sleep and continue whispering to me after I went to sleep. This started in my early toddler years and continued up until the age of five or six. There no reason to whisper to a sleeping person besides hypnosis.

The question is did the abuse cause me to be dissociative or my Mom's experiment cause me to be dissociative.

[finding_my_way]

Originally Posted by Michael W. Harris

After five the traumas have to be more serious to cause dissociative disorders at least from what I have read.

The other thing Mom did to me relates to the Blue Bird experiments. My Mom had been an officer in the Navy during WWII. She was discharged as a full lieutenant. I think that may be an ensign. She had this cookbook on how to put someone under hypnosis. I read it as a teenager but did not relate it to my problems at that time. She would whisper to me to put me to sleep and continue whispering to me after I went to sleep. This started in my early toddler years and continued up until the age of five or six. There no reason to whisper to a sleeping person besides hypnosis.

The question is did the abuse cause me to be dissociative or my Mom's experiment cause me to be dissociative.

i would have to guess that the early stuff you went through likely started the dissociation and other stuff might have added to it.

though i am curious why you feel like someone whispering/talking to someone sleeping is only related to hypnosis? i say that because sometimes people either might feel lonely or like they want to talk but not necessarily be heard, so maybe they prefer talking to someone who is asleep.

in the case of a child, maybe they are just talking to the child in a non harmful/bad way like some people do. i have with my nieces/nephew when they were sleeping at times just saying how much i cared about them, etc. i also find sleeping children just so peaceful but never meant any harm while talking to them while they slept.

[Lost_in_the_woods]

Big peoples make all the rulls cos they this they are smartest butt they are no smart. They is stoopid. Cos rulls are bullys and bullys is stoopid mean peoples.

[Michael W. Harris]

To "finding my way": There is a book by Dr. Arthur M. Arkin titled: "Sleep Talking: Psychology and Psychophysiology". He whispered to college students while they were sleeping and documented the responses he got. Basically he wrote down or taped any verbal responses from the sleeping college students. Most of the students supposedly were unaffected by this even when the students tried to verbally respond.

About one-fifth can be led into hypnosis with this method. Those of us who are dissociative are genetically wired to go into trance states or hypnosis. We would be susceptible to any verbal suggestions made to us while we are sleeping.

Now I have had mental health professionals try to tell me that humans would not do or say anything under hypnosis that they would not do or say while conscious. Being dissociative we know that statement is crap! I have also had mental health professionals at the VA clinic in Lake City, Fl. try and claim that hypnosis is just relaxation therapy and that the patient is never unconscious. That is also crap. Deep hypnosis is the same state as REM dream state. Only in lucid dreaming is part of the mind conscious.

Since we cannot know which people are genetically wired for dissociation or hypnosis, I would submit that it is a bad idea to whisper to young children while they are sleeping. This act might cause them to be dissociative!

[Michael W. Harris]

Another point about hypnosis. The professionals will try and claim they understand hypnosis. They know they can put humans into hypnosis but they cannot describe it using the chemistry and physiology of the brain. This means they don't know crap! They have no clue about the long term mental and emotional consequences of hypnotizing a human. This is why Dr. Ross is so careful when he uses hypnosis in his mental health treatment of dissociative patients.

[-jimi-]

Nowhere in the DSM does it say DID must happen at a certain age.

When it comes to say, the ASD diagnosis, one MUST be able to track it into childhood, if not, no diagnosis. That tells me, age is not a cornerstone of the diagnosis.

[Luce]

Nowhere in the DSM does it say DID must happen at a certain age. That tells me that it has not taken into consideration the growing body of research about structural dissociation.

Structural dissociation (a developing but not yet complete theory of how dissociative disorders develop) proposes that dissociative disorders arise because of traumatic events that *interrupt* the normal developmental process of integration of the personality. Primary and secondary dissociative disorders arise when trauma is either less severe or occurs after the developing functions of the personality have fused - that is, after around the age of 6. When severe trauma happens before this integration has taken place it can result in tertiary structural dissociation, or DID.
Years of research have repeatedly shown that DID cannot develop after the around the age of 6. Trauma that occurs after then - even trauma that can be much more severe than what might have caused DID in a younger child - will more likely cause a secondary dissociative disorder such as complex PTSD or OSDD.

[Luce]

Perhaps one reason why the diagnosis does not require retrospective evidence of disorder is because of the nature of the disorder itself. While disorders such as ADHD and ASD interfere with an individuals ability to cope with day to day life from an early age, the very nature of DID enables a child to cope with day to day life experiences. It is only in adulthood when the dissociation hampers every day life rather than supports it.

[amandalouise]

no the diagnostic criteria does not state it happens before the age of 5, my locations mental health statistics/ demographics state it does.

short version every mental health agency in america has to do periodic paperwork on what mental disorders that agency treats, how many clients with that mental disorder, age of onset, age of diagnosis, cause of that mental disorder where applicable... and much more.

then these reports go in to the state and federal governments health departments. where they are combined with other mental health agencies reports and the APA.

Also periodically the APA (American Psychiatric Association) asks input and surveys to be completed by mental health agencies and mental health treatment providers.

all this census and surveys are put together into what here in america is called statistics and demographics then these reports are distributed to mental health agencies and treatment providers.

in my own location these statistics/ demographics that treatment providers have supplied to the state and federal government is that those past and presently being treated with DID their age of the first split into dissociative alters happened due to trauma before the age of 5.

to find out what your own locations mental health statistics and demographics are on this mental disorder you will need to contact your county, city and state health departments and your treatment providers can also supply you with the information on their agencies demographics of how many clients are presently being treated for DID and the age and cause of the disorder.

[Michael W. Harris]

After I learned that I had a dissociative disorder and could not find anyone who understood the mental illness, my anxiety, paranoia, fear, etc. all began to increase by leaps and bounds. These emotions then caused an increase in the dissociative symptoms. This led to a downward spiral of my overall mental health condition.

When I was ignorant of the condition, my mental health was actually more stable. I still would have never had true quality of life until I got help for the dissociative disorder.

Is it ok to ask how you learned you had a dissociative disorder?

[elevatedsoul]

i still dunno if what i have is a dissociative disorder, but what made me start wondering was because the amnesia problems started standing out more... routine was broken and i wasn't able to hide it from myself so well... now im trying to stabilize which is really difficult!

after i did some reading and saw some patterns in histories of others of how their diagnosis went i started getting suspicious... i've only been trying to get treatment for my problems since 2011 after all... 6 years or so... and i think the average is around 11 years to discover dissociative problem? its been a long time since i read about it... so im hoping to discover the problem soon ..

only lately have i been trying to accept that my childhood was absolute hell

i was more functioning in my routine state... but life happens and routines break.... "ups, good feelings gone"

i cant count how many people i've mentioned dissociation to and they all say they do that too... same when i was diagnosed with adhd, everyone says they have that too... im just like annoyed because people just dont caree, such crybabies they say they have so many problems but dont know nothin about them, and dont even seek help!

good grief explaining dissociation experience is hard ...

[Michael W. Harris]

I had known something was not right in my life and personal relationships for years. I was like a Jew growing up in a Nazi family but no one told me that my family members hated me, or at least did not care about my emotional and psychological well-being. No one knew about the abuse during my early childhood because the only people in my life were the ones abusing me and telling me everything was normal!

I was 36 before I put it all together.

I am definitely not questioning or doubting you,but how do you know for sure it's DID?I am just curious is all.

[Michael W. Harris]

It may not be the "Sybil" or "Eve" type of dissociative disorder. I may have dissociative disorder not otherwise specified. One clinical psychologist has actually given me that diagnosis based on what I told him. He never saw me switch personalities. But at that time I could not afford private sector care so I moved to Lake City, Fl. hoping that those mental health professionals would be able to help me. They would not even talk to me about the disorder.

The misunderstanding about this disorder is that it is going to be like Dr. Jeckel (sp?) and Mr. Hyde or Lon Chaney turning into the werewolf. Even mental health professionals expect it to be easy to see the difference in personalities. But if you read "The Three Faces of Eve" or "Sybil" you know that the family members did not see a mental illness in those women. Why? The family members were so dysfunctional and insensitive that they caused the mental illness in the first place. They then blamed the women for their own behavior. Just like my brother and mother always denied mistreating me.

If you really study Dr. Colin Ross's book on multiple personality disorder, at least fifty percent or more of his patients were extremely hard to diagnose. He had to really get to know them to finally recognize the differences in personality "states".

[Luce]

We got our official diagnosis with the MID (I think) years ago. When we go back home in march after our study we are going to have a diagnostic reassessment done (I don't know what instrument will be used to test but a psychiatrist who specializes in DID is flying in from another city to assess us).

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Michael W. Harris

It may not be the "Sybil" or "Eve" type of dissociative disorder. I may have dissociative disorder not otherwise specified. One clinical psychologist has actually given me that diagnosis based on what I told him. He never saw me switch personalities. But at that time I could not afford private sector care so I moved to Lake City, Fl. hoping that those mental health professionals would be able to help me. They would not even talk to me about the disorder.

The misunderstanding about this disorder is that it is going to be like Dr. Jeckel (sp?) and Mr. Hyde or Lon Chaney turning into the werewolf. Even mental health professionals expect it to be easy to see the difference in personalities. But if you read "The Three Faces of Eve" or "Sybil" you know that the family members did not see a mental illness in those women. Why? The family members were so dysfunctional and insensitive that they caused the mental illness in the first place. They then blamed the women for their own behavior. Just like my brother and mother always denied mistreating me.

If you really study Dr. Colin Ross's book on multiple personality disorder, at least fifty percent or more of his patients were extremely hard to diagnose. He had to really get to know them to finally recognize the differences in personality "states".

if you decide to get professionally evaluated you will not get a diagnosis of dissociative disorder not otherwise specified if your location (athens Georgia) is the one in the USA. the dissociative disorders that is in america now are .....

Dissociative Identity Disorder
Dissociative Amnesia
Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder
Other Specified Dissociative Disorder
Unspecified Dissociative Disorder

...

sort version in 2013 what used to DDNOS symptoms and diagnostic criteria was split up into many different mental disorders (added to old mental disorder labels and others used to create many new mental disorder labels) for example some DDNOS problems are now included in depression disorders, and PTSD disorders, some are now called dissociative amnesia or depersonalization\derealization, some called OSDD or UDD..

my point what you may have come up with because of watching movies, reading books or online may not always be a dissociative disorder.

my suggestion is since they wont talk to you about it just ask for a psychiatric evaluation for diagnostic purposes. you will be given a full battery of tests that will tell you and your treatment providers whether you have a dissociative disorder or if your dissociation problems are part of another mental disorder.

win win situation because either way the tests go, you wont have to fight them anymore to talk with you about what you think you have and they avoid you because they will see by the test results what the problem is,

and the treatment for dissociation problems regardless of which mental disorder your dissociative problems fit into, is the same.... learning grounding, stress reduction, therapy sessions and sometimes medications for things that can cause dissociation like anxiety and depression and others.

Well,I was going to pretty much say what amandalouise has already said,especially this part:

my point what you may have come up with because of watching movies, reading books or online may not always be a dissociative disorder

I personally think you might be able to find proper treatment if you allow the professionals to do the diagnosing instead of self diagnosing.I feel maybe if you go in and see a professional and allow them to come to their own conclusions it might be more beneficial instead of trying to convince them you have DID.I also feel if you stay in therapy long enough and you are indeed DID that eventually it would be recognized by a professional.

I had self diagnosed myself with all sorts of different disorders before seeking long term professional help and I was way off,I wasn't even close.

[Michael W. Harris]

I have read all the books on dissociative disorders. I have two bachelor degrees in engineering. I had to study physics, calculus, differential equations, statics, strength of materials, dynamics ( which is rocket science ), etc. Most mental health professionals would not make grade point average to get into grad school if they took an engineering undergraduate degree! I personally believe most could not make it through an engineering undergraduate degree.

Again, if mental health professionals have an ego problem, they should not be allowed to have a license until they deal with their own emotional problem!

If mental health professionals want to drop their hourly rate down to five dollars per hour most of us would not complain about them learning on the job.