Separating but still loving

My heart is breaking from this. I feel like I am going to back down and try again with him, although I know that never works.

He started a group text with me and all our kids while he is on a trip with one of our sons. We are a family. Of course I love him.

But I must separate from him because it is extremely unhealthy and toxic.

My aunt told me she divorced my uncle but was still in love with him.

Well at least nothing has changed in that I still feel incredible mixed feelings.

I can’t keep doing back/forth.

Maybe we can be separated but still be a family and be friends??? He doesn’t want to separate or divorce. But he isn’t going to change at all to get along better with me. He kept saying he would and then gaslighting me by saying he doesn’t understand. I drove myself to severe emotional illness with his bad communication, confusion game.

I don’t now how to deal with this and a feeling vulnerable to getting sucked back in to a very unhealthy situation. I’m ashamed to have kept trying to end this, to have told family and friends, and then kept getting sucked back in.

I need to have self control and stay away.

He’s killing me with this text, sending photos of the trip that I could have gone on but didn’t because we separated.

It seems like you are still trapped in the narcissistic game your mother played where if you don’t play her game you are being bad.

Tisha, stay strong and resolute. You know that by going back, the issues and patterns will only just repeat themselves. It's been unhealthy and toxic and has not changed, despite ALL your best efforts, that have included couples therapy. Even that did not work or change things.

It's only natural to have mixed feelings when leaving a long-term marriage. And of course, you will feel pull on your heartstrings. But please, for your own health, sanity and mental health, do not give into those emotions and stay the course with a divorce. You will regret it sorely if you try again. You know the drill at this stage, and you've tried absolutely everything possible.. you even tried a relationship course with him. Did it change anything? NO.

Stay grounded in the realities of the relationship, the persistent issues, and the toxicity of it all. It DID make you sick, and it is my firm belief that it is the abuse and constant gaslighting that made you ill.

I also have wondered... why are you not angry? Where's your outrage and anger going, at how you were treated? I think you've let him off the hook, by explaining away and excusing his poor treatment of you and gaslighting ways, as though he only just has poor communication skills and unknowingly does things to upset and hurt you.

ALL abusers know full well that they are hurting the person they claim to love. And ultimately, it's what they want in order to be in control and in power over their partner. Gaslighting is a conscious decision on the part of the abuser - they know what they are doing to their partner, and it's on purpose.

Get angry.. get livid... you deserve to be treated with respect and loving care at all times.. and not the nonsense that he dished out to you.

I've only just met you and I don't know all of your back story, but you've been very kind to me since I got here, and just based on what I've read in this post alone, I feel like NOTHING good would come from you trying again with him. Of course, with children, you are family, but that doesn't mean you have to be his wife or have anything to do with him beyond the kids.

I have a lawyer drawing up a separation agreement. Meanwhile, I am debating inviting my husband for upcoming holiday dinner. It’s always about dinner parties with me, lol! Am I kidding myself thinking we are going to be separated but be friends? Can that work for now until he meets another woman? I don’t want another man. I feel too broken for that now. But I assume he will find another woman. I think I am hoping if I include him in the family holiday and stay his friend that it will stall off the inevitable where he finds someone else. Yuck on me. I know I can’t stay his wife, his intimate partner. That part was totally dysfunctional and the sick, abusive part of our relationship. But the family and friendship was always so good.

I think he is going for this kind of relationship now, too. He didn’t need to make that thread including me with all the kids. Is he trying to reel me back in or is he just wanting this to be our new normal? Can I just go with this for now and worry about how it will change once he finds someone else? Heck, maybe it can all be so friendly that his new partner can be my new bff???

I feel he is the nicest guy who just simply does not have empathy. Yes, he completely turned a blind eye to my hysteria that he caused and he “let” me nearly kill myself. Partly, I feel he pushed me to that, but so nicely, so politely. He could be the kindest predator ever. Idk is that just crazy thinking? But I came back from the brink and got better. I got stronger and got him out. But he’s still acting so, so nice. I even had a dream last night that he was acting like nothing ever happened. Really, I have a fear that he would act like none of this ever happened and that I am just out of my mind and imagined everything.

What kind of person causes their partner severe emotional distress, watches it without helping, getting them help, continues to cause it, continues to promise to stop and change, then doesn’t? And this went on for decades. Is it the nicest guy in the world who simply has no self awareness and no empathy or is it a psycho?

The niceness and politeness is all a facade - it's false, because he needs people to think well of him and he covers up his abuse by being oh so polite and nice. But that doesn't mean he is IN FACT a nice person. The true him lacks empathy and watched as you melted down without wanting to help the one he supposedly "loves". That in and of itself is a n act of sheer cruelty. His false facade is confusing you, and is clouding you from seeing the real him.. which is a monster inside.

Tisha, what are your husbands parents like?

I am thinking you grew up with a very emotional and demanding mother and you were drawn into her drama until you got older and realized how unhealthy her drama was.

There are people that are very addicted to drama. They tend to be very needy and look for ways to become the center of attention.

The other thing I see is that you are recently an empty nester. That can be very hard to adjust to in itself. In addition to that your husband retired early and is around a lot. That too is hard yet also you moved to a small apartment so now he is really in your space constantly. It’s not surprising you got to a point where you needed your own place.

Some men are just dumb and unresponsive to emotional needs. It’s not necessarily intentional abuse, it’s just flat and unresponsive.

Keeping you in the loop with the vacation is not necessarily meant as punishment. That is something your mother would do so it’s probably where your mind and emotions go on a deep subconscious level.

You are right. I grew up with emotions freely unleashed lol. He grew up with total repressed emotions. It’s wild how we ended up together. I wish that dynamic had been good for us.

I could give him a pass that he doesn’t have empathy because he didn’t learn it. But it’s really a stretch to excuse him for the degree of hysteria he provoked me to, he caused it by gaslighting me. He took no responsibility for it, would just get defensive and put it on me. Then he acted the victim and told me and everybody else who knew about it that he had no idea what he did wrong.

Well, that’s all behind me now. It’s time to heal.

I feel good about how I have had no emotional issues for months now. What a traumatic few decades of my life this has been. I’m lucky to have lived through it. I do not consider myself a victim. Honestly, I am coming out of this in a way I feel good about. I should be alright. I can even start to really discover myself, my abilities, maybe do something I can feel really good about. I just want healthy now. I am working hard at it.

Well, you were very young when you met and married your husband. When we are young we don’t see the red flags and we tend to be driven hormonally as nature drives towards reproduction. Also you both were the same religion and followed the cultural customs.

Family dynamics can set some deep seeds that can cause problems later in our lives.

He’s texting photos of all the beautiful sights I could have seen with him had we not separated. The wishful thought that we were happily compatible and enjoying this trip is just a fantasy. The reality is I cried in every damn hotel. Still, walking away is so hard. I don’t know if it’s his intention to try to draw me back in with these texts. I don’t know if he wants me to be sad, sorry, jealous. I do feel all these things. It’s understandable.

I'm new to your thread but him sending those photos sounds like a kind of emotional manipulation. I would say trust your instincts and have as little to do with him as possible. I don't think "friends" is a great idea TBH.

I think I’m mostly terrified to let go because he is security for me. That’s why I really want to keep attached in some way. I’m so disappointed in him for all the bad things. I find so much about him I don’t feel comfortable about. I love him in a family sort of way. I’m too hurt and angry to keep loving him in a romantic way, too traumatized, it just really was not good or healthy with us. I’m just so scared to be alone with no one to be there for me in some way I may need. It doesn’t make total sense because he wasn’t there emotionally how I really needed, but he was there for much else. I know I can’t have my cake and eat it too. I’m being selfish in thinking there can be a benefit without my having to give it my all.

I plan to try to have a real, honest discussion with him when he gets back to see what he wants moving forward. I won’t accept his usual response which is just lip service. It doesn’t even make sense, nor is it healthy, that he would just keep making false promises that we will miraculously be better and keep going back. He is just being manipulative in doing that. It hurts me so much that he is fine with us being together while he knows I am miserable. It’s so sick.

That's an act of manipulation - sending you the pics from the trip to make you nostalgic for him. Don't fall for this. You are doing great, staying grounded in reality.

He texted to say he’s buying me a souvenir smh

Yeah, he's trying to manipulate and pull you back in.

Paying attention to how you are feeling is important. What is equally important to understand that feelings are not always the actual reality of what is taking place. Instead it’s your perception of what may be taking place based on your own experiences and history.

The trend has been labeling people as abusers and embracing a victim mentality when a person doesn’t fit into a box of what we think they need to be so we don’t feel bad. There are qualities another person may simply not be capable of having because they don’t have the aptitude for it.

When there are years and children invested in a relationship it’s much harder to walk away.

I think you’re so very brave, I see so much strength in your posts. Stay strong.

Yes, I have labeled him an abuser because he does not possess the empathy I think he needed to have to make me feel good. I truly believe he has an abnormal deficit of empathy, as does my mother, and my one sister. His deficit of empathy caused him to become completely absorbed in his media addiction and his seething anger and envy regarding his job. When I complained about feeling neglected and being dissatisfied and upset about it, he would passive aggressively look like he was listening to me while I did a lot of talking, agreed to remedy the problem to please me, and then not. When this happened time and again, and I became emotionally dysregulated from extreme exasperation, he acted defensive and sullen, did not comfort me, did not get help from professionals and truly do the work, did not make honest effort, let me go “down the well”, tried to ply me with substances to self medicate and make me compliant to giving him sex the way he wanted. I played into it.

I don’t know if people consider him an abuser. I am not supported by my mother at all. She knew this was going on for decades. I have been reaching out for help and told her for years. I finally stopped telling her years ago, when my sister told me that Mom complains that I call her to complain about my problems.

I had a conversation with her yesterday and feel like I don’t want to talk to her again. She told me he loves me very much, is a great husband, that I would have to have my head examined if I left him. I told her that I actually did have my head examined and it turns out I am very ill. This relationship has made me very ill. No comment from her. The emotional invalidation I have faced my whole life is unbelievable. So the message I learned from dear ol’ mom is it is okay if I am miserable and crying hysterically every day as long as a husband is willing to be with me and paying my bills. I suppose that is the message. I’m not even sure what she bases her opinion on that he is a great husband. He is committed to me. He is generous with material goods. He is a pleasant person, not openly mean.

I used to think her opinion was because she thought he was going to financially support her. Well he isn’t and she now knows it. So why she is still having this opinion that is so invalidating of me is beyond my comprehension.

It hurts and I am feeling like I am backing down yet again. I am the boy who cried wolf. I am a laughing stock, an obnoxious, miserable shrew. Okay, I own that. Guilty as charged. I am not a victim. How about it is me who is the abuser?

Well your mother is definitely not a person you can go to for understanding. Your mother follows old customs and from what you have shared likes to create drama. That kind of person doesn’t know how to listen and validate. Your mother’s generation was more about being taken care of and working within the cultural and religious structure. The men were often cold and on the narcissistic side. It’s almost cult like and can be cold an unsympathetic.

Thinking more about what you shared I think your mother and your husband have similar character traits. They expect others to go with their flow and fail to see and respect the individual needs of others. In other words, if it’s not important to them, it’s not important. Neither one knows how to be present for you or others for that matter. It is just assumed that when others fail to conform there is something wrong with them.

All I can add to what others have said is to trust your feelings and your reason. It sounds like deep down you know what you need to do, but you are being swayed by people who really don't understand. Your mother may think it's better to have physical support even without emotional support, but she's wrong. Both are important but to be with someone with no empathy is soul destroying. My mother is a narcissist and sometimes after I listen to her on the phone for an hour, I feel like I don't really exist, like I have no personality or I'm not real. It's hard to explain but she has such a strong personality and just talks over me, and people think she's charming because she has an English accent and is socially capable. She was abusive when I was growing up (especially in my teens after my Dad left) and she also abused my brother mentally and physically which scarred me because I was older and protective.

You sound like a rational person and thus you must trust your reason. I've been reading about the philosophy of Stoicism (not what you'd think - the meaning of the word in modern times is different). Stoics believe in doing the difficult thing if you know it's the right path for you. Sometimes the most difficult thing is also the best. Many years ago I left a toxic (but not abusive) relationship and it was absolutely the best thing I ever did. I met my husband later - but even being single was far preferable than being with my ex.

You've got this.
p.s. check out Ryan Holiday stoic videos on YouTube. It's actually a comforting philosophy (has helped my mental health). And because it's philosophy not religion, you can basically cherry pick what you like!

After that last toxic conversation yesterday with my mother, she called me again the next day. She gave me intermittent reinforcement. I’ve learned the terminology and understand it now. She said she supports whatever I need to do.

I told her I’ve been crying hysterically the whole time because of him, he triggers it. I said no one should ever have to live like that, and that I never had that happen to me in any other relationship (other than her). I said it really wasn’t even her that triggered me like that except for a handful of times once I was grown when she went off on me, got in my face, raged relentlessly until I was crying hysterically. She had reduced me to hysterica with verbal abuse yelling at me as a young child, but I didn’t bring that up to her this time, but those are my earliest memories of hysterical crying. I outright said this to her, said we always had a volatile relationship. She didn’t really acknowledge or comment, seemed somewhat pleased that I minimized her abusive role as not really the culprit to my emotional dysregulation as after all it was only a handful of times.

It sickens me that these relationships are completely intertwined, triangulated. It is a two headed monster my husband/mother. I am seeing this clearly now.

I got triggered yesterday from this thread and got upset, had a cry. But it wasn’t a hysterical, meltdown, emotionally dysregulated cry. It just felt like a needed cry to come to terms with my situation, with myself. I apologize for kind of going off.

I’m embarrassed for putting everything out there as I have here. I feel so lonely I have no where else to go. I appreciate having reached out to caring others and all the thoughtful comments have given me so much clarity. But maybe I am so easily influenced by the last thing I hear that I don’t even know myself. This has always been my problem. I don’t like who I have become in my adulthood. I am ashamed. I am obsessed with trying to understand and recover from my suffering mental health from being in bad family relationships. I haven’t done enough things in my life I can feel proud of, feel shallow, self absorbed. I wouldn’t like to present myself as someone who obsessively listens to videos on narcissism. I need to find something more to let myself grow, something I can say I am and do to feel proud of.

I’ll talk with him when we see each other again and see what he wants to do with the separation. He is out of my house and not upsetting me now. I am alright and moving forward, bittersweet as that is. I still wish he would give me breadcrumbs, enough to make me feel comfortable. I still want to beg him, plead with him to care and make that effort. If he had only cared and made effort, if he only would have improved 20%, I would have been satisfied, felt loved, seen, respected, honored enough. I wouldn’t have quit. But he just kept telling me to go first.

You will get there in time. Be patient with yourself through this process. It's a most difficult process, leaving an abuser and it's complex, filled with conflicting emotions that pull you in a thousand directions at once. Have compassion for yourself too. You were abused, and there were repercussions. And I suspect that even with the few volatile moments with your mother, that it impacted you deeply as a child and likely traumatized you at that age. Please be kind to yourself, be proud of how far you've already come and be proud of yourself for standing your ground on refusing to be abused any longer.

I’ve learned via the science that from my FOO love is also attached to hate, dislike, fear, uncertainty, insecurity, intermittent reinforcement. The relationship with my husband brought this to light, caused me the worse, dysfunctional reaction to that disappointment.

He and I spent several hours together yesterday, having a family holiday meal. I am processing what happened and how I feel about it.

1. It’s only me who brings up anything.
2. He maintains he wants to be together with me but has no acknowledgement or clarity of our problems, takes no ownership, responsibility. It’s just one big gaslight from him as though there is no problem. He just wants to come back. He said, “I love you, but you don’t want to be with me.”
3. I said we can call it irreconcilable differences and divorce, move on, or we can live apart while really, truly, understanding and working on the issue. He chose the latter, but has no conception of him having any issue to improve upon. He said he is talking to a therapist but has no idea what to discuss.

So that’s how it is atm which is fine with me. I am not emotionally dysregulated anymore. This is all that is really important to me. I am happy to still have him somewhat in my life and not completely letting go. I was very honest telling him what I want to keep is our family/friendship relationship. I would love for the romantic, intimate relationship to be able to resume in a healthy way again one day, if a lot of work was done to understand and improve. But, honestly, I don’t see him ever growing in that way because he has absolutely no understanding about giving me the tiniest breadcrumbs I beg for. I don’t understand why this is, and I wish a therapist can get to the bottom of this, but I am fine with us being in this holding pattern for now.

I also observed him with our kids. He doesn’t connect with them emotionally either. He doesn’t offer up much in conversation and what he does say is very shallow, not even topics of interest to them.

It was very nice to have the whole family together for this holiday though, and I am glad I did it and included him.