Hello guys,

What does the science say about children's raising by abusing parents and mental illness. Does it (mental illness) happen regardless of the existence of loving and caring parents with unconditional love no matter what, or that conditional-loving and abusing parents are a major part of it, and they take responsibility for their children's suffering through their entire lives?

Thanks

[ensconce]

Its actually really complex, nature vs nurture basically. Its a combination, some will get a mental illness no matter how good an environment they live in is. Others can go through a lot of tough things for years and not suffer at all. It comes down to genes and how people develop over time along with their environment. Researchers aren't 100% sure yet but they also believe its a combination.

the nature nurture debate no longer exists in psychology. instead, everything is understood to be an interaction... there are also many methodological issues with genetic research (twin and adoption studies).

it also depends on the disorder... some are more genetic than others... and the genetic basis is usually dependent on various genes and the environment can effect how these genes are expressed.

we are also influenced by our environments outside of parenting...

not sure what you meant by taking responsibility throughout their entire lives.

[marmaduke]

Originally Posted by SDavid

Hello guys,

What does the science say about children's raising by abusing parents and mental illness. Does it (mental illness) happen regardless of the existence of loving and caring parents with unconditional love no matter what, or that conditional-loving and abusing parents are a major part of it, and they take responsibility for their children's suffering through their entire lives?

Thanks

Parents have a huge part to play in their children's mental health.

I suppose I can only speak for myself. My parents were difficult, mother was cold. I spent 40 years wondering what was wrong with me, I was so faulty. OCD, social phobia, anxiety, crippling depression, suicidal adulation.
Was I born depressed??

Well NO I was not born depressed. They destroyed me, slowly, systematically. With mother it was deliberate, verbally.

"You will never have any friends, WHO would EVER like YOU. You are UGLY, fat lump" (I wasn't fat) You smell, 'don't come near me, I don't want your stink all over me"
I was a sensitive child, and her words cut me. Over and over again she never let up.
Death by a thousand cuts.

But I was not beaten or starved, tho food was strictly controlled. Mother was a micro controller.

What was wrong with me, I tried so hard to be good, I tried so hard to please mother. And never did.
She HATED me. Why would a mother hate her own child? It made no sense.

One day surfing the net l found a personality check list. For NPD.
My mother was a--------------------------------------- NARCISSIST!!

That what it was! It had never been me that was faulty, it was her!

An epiphany. All those years wasted trying to please someone who could never be pleased, and, who would never love me, and never had.

For me, the truth was a relief and the start of healing.
Acceptance is important.

I find it strange, some times I read a post, the person is describing their parents. They describe my parents. They describe their non existent self esteem, they describe my problems.
Their parents are likely NPD too, but they don't want to know ya know, they don't want truth.
Isn't knowing the truth going to help them heal?

My depression was situational. The damage done by such a childhood is long lasting and deep rooted.
Ironically these damaged people have often been brainwashed (by said parents) to think they are 'wonderful' parents.

However, sometimes mental illness is not situational. It is inherited, like bi polar, schizophrenia. The parents can be great, and always do their best.

Nature or nurture, sometimes both.

Never love anything that can't love you back.

Originally Posted by somat

...
not sure what you meant by taking responsibility throughout their entire lives.

I meant if parents should feel guilty for their children's suffering for their [the children's] entire life, since mental illness is rather something long term.

Thank you all for commenting.

All of you basically agree that genetics and environment play a role, but as mentioned the environment can exacerbate the deficiency [inadequacy to the current world] in genes. I think parents have much to do with their mentally ill children, because they are their children's own world in the first several years, and much of their world later. Even if the environment expanded to include others in their lives, I believe nothing can hurt a child like abusing parents.

I was watching yesterday "A Child of Anger" or the "Psychopathic Child" video on YouTube, which is a recorded therapy session with a little beautiful girl with the name Beth of age 6.5 years at the time, who was abused by her biological father so much in her childhood, which made her suffer from detachment disorder and psychopathic tendencies. I heard somewhere that psychopathy may be a genetic disorder!! This story may be extreme, but I think it reflects the fact that abusing children physically or verbally contributes significantly to their mental illness, especially if they have the tendencies genetically to it.

Originally Posted by SDavid

I meant if parents should feel guilty for their children's suffering for their [the children's] entire life, since mental illness is rather something long term.

Well, it is possible to not be responsible and feel guilt and vice versa...

What purpose does the guilt have? Even if the parent is partly responsible, if the guilt serves no useful purpose then they probably shouldn't waste their energy with it. They should acknowledge and accept but move on, imho. How does feeling guilty help the child?

Originally Posted by somat

Well, it is possible to not be responsible and feel guilt and vice versa...

What purpose does the guilt have? Even if the parent is partly responsible, if the guilt serves no useful purpose then they probably shouldn't waste their energy with it. They should acknowledge and accept but move on, imho. How does feeling guilty help the child?

Right, it doesn't help effectively, but, I think, acknowledging even implicitly their fault gives their children a relief that this isn't their [the children's] fault or weakness entirely, and thus give them [the children] the opportunity to change and move on. This is my opinion at least.

[Arwen_78]

If you're also taking into account mental illness is very broad term with also includes ADD/ADHD and other smaller mental illnesses. Some mental illnesses are also heredity and this is something we can't fix as much as we would like to. It's also quite likely that the parents who have treated their child horribly also have a mental illness themselves so how do you know if you don't have a heredity mental illness that you behave differently because you don't want to behave as "badly" as the parent?

Originally Posted by Arwen_78

If you're also taking into account mental illness is very broad term with also includes ADD/ADHD and other smaller mental illnesses. Some mental illnesses are also heredity and this is something we can't fix as much as we would like to. It's also quite likely that the parents who have treated their child horribly also have a mental illness themselves so how do you know if you don't have a heredity mental illness that you behave differently because you don't want to behave as "badly" as the parent?

Does mental illness mean necessarily to abuse children? Does mental illness eliminate free will to choose what is good? I think, the best the parents can do to their children is to offer unconditional love and support, without any kind of abusing. This is the most valuable thing they can do. It is way better than providing food on the table. They have to be responsible when bringing children to this world. If they have mental illness they must seek help and be in a good condition to raise children. Someone has to break the chain.

Also, how do we know that ADHD is purely genetic? It is related to neurotransmitter issues in the brain. But what if these biochemical changes were triggered by early developing stages? I always hear this statement from psychologists "we don't know exactly why". Even if it is purely genetic, the parents must be understanding, otherwise they will put too much pressure on them, which may allow them to develop other disorders like depression and low self-esteem which may be developed to social anxiety later.

[Arwen_78]

(Deleted as after the fact I realized how easily it would be to figure out who I was. I don't know if any family members or on here but not taking a chance of that)

I was the only one who was DXed as a kid and given medication. Yet, you are 100% correct nobody can really say how and when mental illness happens and why! Keep in mind that the word illness it another way of saying not normal and add mental to it it's just taboo. So, that is why so many go without an DX or medications.

acknowledgement of harm caused and lifetime of guilt are not the same thing...

[marmaduke]

IMO there are two major causes of mental illness. Situational (the parenting) Narcissistic/abusive parenting can destroy a child.
I suffered with disassociation caused by emotional abuse. Clinical depression, and a total breakdown at 17.
Getting away from abusers helps tremendously. I have suffered many years of C-PTSD.
After years of work self help mostly, hypnotism, mindfulness and the like I'm much better, now maybe (almost) normal.

I work with foster children excluded from school, nearly all have come from highly dysfunctional homes. Self hate and self harm is common. So l have seen the sometimes devastating effect of utterly inappropriate parenting. And believe me emotional abuse is just as destructive as violent abuse, you can destroy a person without ever laying a finger on them.

We had one lad who was intelligent, polite, even did his homework! The other kids tended to avoid him tho.
He was unsettling because you couldn't 'read' him. He did not show emotion.
One day he never came to foster school, turned out he had attacked a neighbor with an axe. He was in police custody.
Diagnosed a psychopath, thought to be a genetic PD.

As for these parents feeling guilt, most don't because they think there're great! They have a million excuses for their behavior. My mother blamed everyone else for her own failings. Nothing was ever her fault.
I was the one that was faulty allegedly . 'If it wasn't for you l'd be happy' I'd be told. Regularly.
Gee thanks mum (like l asked to be born)

The other cause of mental health problems is genetic. The brain can have problems, just like any other organ. Nothing to do with parenting.

[Arwen_78]

Yes, both when talking about mental illness need to be taken in to account. We just don't know enough about the human brain to really understand the genetic types. Which makes me mad that when medications work for most or some and not others it's a problem with the medications, not the dose or if they person also have multiple illnesses.

Originally Posted by marmaduke

IMO there are two major causes of mental illness. Situational (the parenting) Narcissistic/abusive parenting can destroy a child.
I suffered with disassociation caused by emotional abuse. Clinical depression, and a total breakdown at 17.
Getting away from abusers helps tremendously. I have suffered many years of C-PTSD.
After years of work self help mostly, hypnotism, mindfulness and the like I'm much better, now maybe (almost) normal.

I work with foster children excluded from school, nearly all have come from highly dysfunctional homes. Self hate and self harm is common. So l have seen the sometimes devastating effect of utterly inappropriate parenting. And believe me emotional abuse is just as destructive as violent abuse, you can destroy a person without ever laying a finger on them.

We had one lad who was intelligent, polite, even did his homework! The other kids tended to avoid him tho.
He was unsettling because you couldn't 'read' him. He did not show emotion.
One day he never came to foster school, turned out he had attacked a neighbor with an axe. He was in police custody.
Diagnosed a psychopath, thought to be a genetic PD.

As for these parents feeling guilt, most don't because they think there're great! They have a million excuses for their behavior. My mother blamed everyone else for her own failings. Nothing was ever her fault.
I was the one that was faulty allegedly . 'If it wasn't for you l'd be happy' I'd be told. Regularly.
Gee thanks mum (like l asked to be born)

The other cause of mental health problems is genetic. The brain can have problems, just like any other organ. Nothing to do with parenting.

[*Laurie*]

Originally Posted by SDavid

Thank you all for commenting.

All of you basically agree that genetics and environment play a role, but as mentioned the environment can exacerbate the deficiency [inadequacy to the current world] in genes. I think parents have much to do with their mentally ill children, because they are their children's own world in the first several years, and much of their world later. Even if the environment expanded to include others in their lives, I believe nothing can hurt a child like abusing parents.

I was watching yesterday "A Child of Anger" or the "Psychopathic Child" video on YouTube, which is a recorded therapy session with a little beautiful girl with the name Beth of age 6.5 years at the time, who was abused by her biological father so much in her childhood, which made her suffer from detachment disorder and psychopathic tendencies. I heard somewhere that psychopathy may be a genetic disorder!! This story may be extreme, but I think it reflects the fact that abusing children physically or verbally contributes significantly to their mental illness, especially if they have the tendencies genetically to it.

I've watched that YouTube video and when I did, I wondered if Beth had inherited her father's mental illness (psychopathic traits and such). Certainly his abuse didn't help, but she might be the way she is no matter what. A different child might have had a very different outcome to parental abuse. I have to ask myself why Beth reacted the way she did - which is very extreme. Her story is horrifying.

Originally Posted by LauraBeth

I've watched that YouTube video and when I did, I wondered if Beth had inherited her father's mental illness (psychopathic traits and such). Certainly his abuse didn't help, but she might be the way she is no matter what. A different child might have had a very different outcome to parental abuse. I have to ask myself why Beth reacted the way she did - which is very extreme. Her story is horrifying.

I am not sure if you watched the full version (which is around 27 minutes, and the correct name is "Child of Rage") where she talked about her biological father's sexual abuse, and the nightmares she had about him at night. The professional diagnosis was detachment disorder, which is thought to be caused by abusing the child harshly at early stages. May be she has genetic tendencies for these things, but again her biological father triggered these tendencies, which I think is the case for the majority of mental illnesses.

I heard several times from older people that our parents were very harsh on us but we didn't suffer from mental illness. I think this is true, where I have been told that my grandfather was very harsh on his children, but they all respected him very much until his death, and they all seem to be OK. I wonder why? Could it be that because of the strict society norms that children must respect their parents no matter what, or may be because of the harsh life that they had which required them to be together to survive, and let go of what could scatter and thus weaken them. I don't know, and I don't know if their claim is true at all. What do you think?

[marmaduke]

I read a article the other day, a man was recounting how his father had severely abused him and his brother.
When he married and had children he vowed that 'His children would NEVER experience the same abuse he suffered from his father' and they didn't.

He was distressed and bewildered at his brother tho. His brother abused his children just like his father had done to him.
Why would you do that to your children, why would you make your children suffer?

So, somewhere along the line there is a fundamental difference between these brothers.
IMO one brother is genetically 'normal' he has empathy, he genuinely loves and cares for his kids and would never hurt them.

The other brother? Is genetically like his father, predisposed to narcissism/psychopathy and therefore without empathy, unable to feel others pain he acts out the same behaviors as his father and inflicts yet more suffering.

Nature loads the gun, nurture pulls the trigger.

This thread is making it sound like we are inevitably doomed by our genes or parents. A lot of research on both genetics and parenting suggest that this is not the case... Research in epigenetics, in particular.

We have choice about how we cope with what happened to us.

[Arwen_78]

Eugenics? Don't get me wrong but is part of that about weeding out the weak? i.e. what Hitler user as a scapegoat? Which gave it a hugely bad name?

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[marmaduke]

This thread is making it sound like we are inevitably doomed by our genes or parents.
Well realistically, we are. Some are doomed to blues eyes, some brown. How can we not be about our genes, its what we are made of!

Parenting can make or break a child. How can we not be about parenting as a child we are at the mercy of the adults around us, there is no choice.

We have choice about how we cope with what happened to us. Um, I'm not convinced, I struggle. if I had choice I'd choose not to struggle or have issues.

I do not believe in 'free will' it is an illusion.

Epigenetics is interesting l don't know much about it.

[Arwen_78]

Oh, that was just a poor understanding of it. It's more like "designer" breeding. Like setting laws about how a race can breed, a small part of it.

America tried to breed out -blank- people, I'm not racist so put what you want there. Then like when England was at war with Scotland or Ireland, mid evil times, they had a law that every Scot or Irish women would have to bed an Englishman on their wedding night. Selected breed is another name for it

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Originally Posted by somat

This thread is making it sound like we are inevitably doomed by our genes or parents. A lot of research on both genetics and parenting suggest that this is not the case... Research in epigenetics, in particular.

We have choice about how we cope with what happened to us.

I think you are right. However, parenting and genes set everything without our choice as children. Choosing to change later is possible but not easy. Overriding the subconscious mind is a hard task.

Originally Posted by marmaduke

...

I do not believe in 'free will' it is an illusion.
...

I think we don't have a free will in the sense that at any given time and given (physical and mental) state we cannot choose other than what we have chosen in a given situation. But our (physical and mental) state can change with time, and thus I think we can choose different things for the same situation in different times. Believing that we don't have free will absolutely will enforce the notion that we cannot do anything about our situations, and that is not the case.

[marmaduke]

Originally Posted by SDavid

I think we don't have a free will in the sense that at any given time and given (physical and mental) state we cannot choose other than what we have chosen in a given situation. But our (physical and mental) state can change with time, and thus I think we can choose different things for the same situation in different times. Believing that we don't have free will absolutely will enforce the notion that we cannot do anything about our situations, and that is not the case.

Maybe, some might be able to change somewhat but I read many posts on here where people feel that there is nothing they can do to change.
Take, social phobia (which I had for years) I never wanted that, I wanted to 'choose' to control panic attacks, but couldn't they overwhelmed me.

Money, money makes a big difference in this material world. So many people on here stuck, say, with abusive controlling parents and unable to spread their wings and fly.

Wouldn't it be easy if there was real choice!