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#21
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Again, I think tough love gets confused with dissenting perspective. Tough love literally sounds like a person who is in a real relationship with the person receiving the "love" enforcing their personal boundaries. Like Sarahsweets said, enforcing financial boundaries with a child. So maybe it's the fact that this euphemism has been appropriated for abusive behavior, and we should call the behavior exactly what it is: are you enforcing a boundary? Are you expressing a differing perspective? Or are you forcing your thoughts and opinions down someone else's throat? Or are you being overly judgmental? I think if we're really specific to what the behavior was and how it made us feel, we can more clearly talk about it and also address it with each other. Also, I'd like to encourage you to use person-first language. Don't mean to derail the thread, but I am a person with major depressive disorder, not a depressive. It's not a personality trait; it's a condition. Thanks. __________________ What if I fall? Oh, my dear, but what if you fly? Primary Dx: C-PTSD and Severe Chronic Treatment Resistant Major Depressive Disorder Secondary Dx: Generalized Anxiety Disorder with mild Agoraphobia. Meds I've tried: Prozac, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor, Remeron, Elavil, Wellbutrin, Risperidone, Abilify, Prazosin, Paxil, Trazadone, Tramadol, Topomax, Xanax, Propranolol, Valium, Visteril, Vraylar, Selinor, Clonopin, Ambien Treatments I've done: CBT, DBT, Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), Talk therapy, psychotherapy, exercise, diet, sleeping more, sleeping less... |
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#22
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With regard to person first language, I think this was addressed by DocJohn in the guidelines and a recent thread. I did not couple "depressive" with a pejorative therefore I have not violated the guidelines here. I felt comfortable using that term because I live with depression myself. I don't find the term offensive. There are times when people use the shortest version of a phrase or word in order to be efficient with language and communication. Depressive is faster and more efficient than "people living with major depressive disorder." Sometimes a sentence can get unwieldly with long titles and the idea gets buried under the phrasing. I did not say that depression is a personality trait. I am well aware that all sorts of different people can present with depression from various walks of life. They are unique individuals. Remember that I live with it myself (lifelong) so I don't need to be educated on what it is. If you feel very strongly about person-first language, even though it was already addressed by DocJohn on the recent thread, perhaps you'd like to discuss again with him? I believe I am within community guidelines and I also think that we need to respect that different people with the same illness are allowed to have different feelings about the language around it. The moderators can certainly correct me if I am wrong about the guidelines. As a middle ground, I will refrain from referring to you directly as a 'depressive' Seesaw. Wishing you peace and a good day. Last edited by Anonymous44076; May 20, 2019 at 03:24 PM.. |
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#23
Iliovar, as OP, is it okay to ask about your perception or personal experiences of "tough love" either related to mental health or some other problem? Did you find it helpful or problematic? Would you care to elaborate?
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#24
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__________________ What if I fall? Oh, my dear, but what if you fly? Primary Dx: C-PTSD and Severe Chronic Treatment Resistant Major Depressive Disorder Secondary Dx: Generalized Anxiety Disorder with mild Agoraphobia. Meds I've tried: Prozac, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor, Remeron, Elavil, Wellbutrin, Risperidone, Abilify, Prazosin, Paxil, Trazadone, Tramadol, Topomax, Xanax, Propranolol, Valium, Visteril, Vraylar, Selinor, Clonopin, Ambien Treatments I've done: CBT, DBT, Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), Talk therapy, psychotherapy, exercise, diet, sleeping more, sleeping less... |
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#25
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I think it's accurate that givers of tough love intend to fix and correct. But is this necessarily a bad approach? And can it be a better approach than empathy? Three main variables to consider imo when giving tough love, the recipients disposition and their state of mind, good intent that's evident through what you say and/or your history, the quality of advice given. While the first is difficult to do, especially on an online forum, it can be done. You can look at how users have responded to some approaches of advice given in their threads. I've seen some receptive and even thankful of such advice in their threads. Admittedly I haven't seen anyone respond negatively to an empathetic approach. Yet this site is geared towards a particular way to respond and consider things (ideally, at least) if you go through some threads in which docjohn has responded to. This is not necessarily a critique, as it does strive towards more empathy. But it does limit the "types" of responses to the point that tough love is considered unsupportive. Anyways, to the point. The best aspects of empathy imo is that it's non judemental, doesn't necessarily take sides, and acknowledges the persons pain and humanity. But perhaps a time comes when judgement is needed. Like when someone is doing something at the expense of others or lacks self awareness, to which tough love could be useful. The advice has to be right. If you make an incorrect observation or insight, you appear presumptuous. However, there's the possibility that what you say is "correct" and gives the right kick to make the recipient contemplate what's said, and even realize it's right. Even though what was said might hurt initially. That's not something empathy typically does. Sisabel and sarahswerts mention that tough love is being conflated with a dissenting perspective or direct and honest feedback. But I would say that a dissenting perspective can be tough love because it can go against the recipients feelings and actions, and doing either has the potential to momentarily cause some emotional hurt. It's simply to a smaller degree than the more extreme cases you provided in previous posts. Here's some more comments on tough love if you want What is your stance on " Tough Love" and it'''s effectiveness? : AskMen Should also note to all incoming users, feel free to inject your own tough love into the thread idea and my opinions. |
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Wisest Elder Ever
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#26
I don’t believe tough love exists....
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#27
Yeah it’s not as straight forward as it seems.
Some people make the most vile comments about others but it all covered by fake syrupy rainbows and unicorns. I personally usually see right through that. Sometimes people don’t see it and could tricked by fake “niceness”. It really takes awhile to get to know the person like that. I know someone who starts and end every phrase with “G-d bless you and may G-ds blessing come upon you and may G-da goodness make your life a bliss etc etc” pretty much utter cliche nonsense. In reality she causes ton of suffering to people and eventually people get to know her and stir away. She recently contacted someone who is estranged from her to tell her that family and friends all abandoned her and only strangers are willing to associate with her. All of us knew right away it’s because strangers buy fake “bless/shmess and and etc” bit as soon as they know her they stir away. Sometimes tough love might be better than fake nonsense. At least tough live implies “love” while “fake ness” implies nothing but fake ness. Sure fake people suffer from something that causes them to be this way but it’s their responsibility to seek help. It’s not other people’s responsibility to figure them out. So yeah tough live versus fake support, hard to tell what’s what and which one is worse. So for me it all boils to sincerity. How sincere are people in their words and actions and it takes awhile (or good insight) to get to know people where they coming from with their support and if it’s sincere etc |
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#28
I have had “experiences” with people very similar to what you’re describing here.
Fake “niceness” indeed can be “worse” than “tough love” .... imo.... Quote:
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#29
I would say my father is a good example of tough love, especially regarding things that I tried hard to get his approval in when I was younger. I really remember the times where I would work all day to clean room and organize but if the tops of my dressers were still unorganized at the end of the day I remember him always saying "wow good job but you still need to do something about this" and he never just said good job. This has left me feeling like I'll never be good enough because trying my best wasn't good enough for him. And I still always feel like I have to prove to him that my decisions were valid because of this or that. So in this case I would believe tough love wasn't helpful for someone that already had motivational issues.
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unaluna
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unaluna
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#30
There is no such thing as tough love. Tough and love cannot be used in the same sentence. You cannot hurt someone and tell them you did that out of love. My father has always said he criticized me, hit me, and yelled at me only because he "loved me" and for my own sake. To succeed in life. He created a fragile and immature person instead with social anxiety and depression issues, and now as grown up as a failure in every aspect of life. I believe that only love and respect can make people change and make them better. Punishing people in the of hope they become better is an illusion. But it's easier than being patient and loving unconditionally. I identify as an atheist/agnostic now, but St. Paul verses on love are things to recall.
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unaluna
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Jimi the rat
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#31
Agree.
Also I think people that don't really know eachother well need to be extra careful. People usually go by what they can do and think it is the same for everyone else. I remember when I was at my worst, and online people really helped, basically they helped me tread water until I could find a doctor to help me. It took ages. Once in a while some asshat showed up and told me that I just chose to feel bad and they had chosen to feel good so if they can, everyone else can. That was really discouraging. __________________ |
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Jimi the rat
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#32
Of course it is OK to warn a person not to do something that could be harmful. As long as it is cuz you really want to give this advice, and not because you want to shut someone up.
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#33
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seesaw, unaluna
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Jimi the rat
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#34
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Fact is I never really wanted to waste people's time, but I survived because people encouraged me to. My counselor thought if I was kicked off welfare and had to work full time, I would snap out of it. She yelled at me because she said my BFF enabled me in my bad habits by giving me food so I wouldn't starve. Since then I understand that I really don't understand much about what other people go through... but I try not to think they aren't trying enough... Of course sometimes I don't have patience, which is basically no one's fault, and sometimes I say the wrong things, but at least I'm not saying my ignorance is knowledge. __________________ |
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unaluna
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#35
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Jimi the rat
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#36
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#37
I know I already posted in this thread but I was reading it over and thinking. I think "honest love" with compassion exists. It means supportively sharing what you believe to be the case (when asked), not pushing your views on someone and realizing when to step away. Stepping away can be a way for letting natural consequences happen-in the case of my daughter who is an addict we had to let her go until she came home asking for help. But "tough love" is more like asshole love. Its self righteous and self serving and more focused on the person giving the tough love being "right" rather than having concern for the welfare of the person receiving the tough love.
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#38
Tough love....it's such a selfish, mean way to treat another person. To me, it seems there are more creative options.
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#39
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__________________ What if I fall? Oh, my dear, but what if you fly? Primary Dx: C-PTSD and Severe Chronic Treatment Resistant Major Depressive Disorder Secondary Dx: Generalized Anxiety Disorder with mild Agoraphobia. Meds I've tried: Prozac, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor, Remeron, Elavil, Wellbutrin, Risperidone, Abilify, Prazosin, Paxil, Trazadone, Tramadol, Topomax, Xanax, Propranolol, Valium, Visteril, Vraylar, Selinor, Clonopin, Ambien Treatments I've done: CBT, DBT, Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), Talk therapy, psychotherapy, exercise, diet, sleeping more, sleeping less... |
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#40
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__________________ What if I fall? Oh, my dear, but what if you fly? Primary Dx: C-PTSD and Severe Chronic Treatment Resistant Major Depressive Disorder Secondary Dx: Generalized Anxiety Disorder with mild Agoraphobia. Meds I've tried: Prozac, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor, Remeron, Elavil, Wellbutrin, Risperidone, Abilify, Prazosin, Paxil, Trazadone, Tramadol, Topomax, Xanax, Propranolol, Valium, Visteril, Vraylar, Selinor, Clonopin, Ambien Treatments I've done: CBT, DBT, Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), Talk therapy, psychotherapy, exercise, diet, sleeping more, sleeping less... |
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