Should the moderately well-off be ashamed?

Almeera · Jan 29, 2015, 03:56 AM

Plainly put: if you worked your behind off to get to where you are, had zero connections or privilege to fall back on and somehow made it, should you still be embarrassed about your quality of life or how much you make? If your lifestyle is comfortable - little to no debt, food on the table, a family home and a car, that kind of stuff - are you better off hiding it from your friends?

I recently put this question to my close circle of friends and I was surprised about how vicious some of their answers were. Only myself and another girl were of the opinion that if you earned it through hard, honest work, you shouldn't be ashamed. "Other people don't want to know about how well you're doing" and "Don't bring your first-world problems to the table [like complaining that your expensive car broke down when some people in the group don't have cars]" (or in general, "Other people have it worse, be considerate") were two strong themes in the discussion.

I'm curious to hear (...okay, read) what you guys have to say about this.

ChipperMonkey · Jan 29, 2015, 04:07 AM

Somehow I'm thinking that answers will vary depending on culture.

Almeera · Jan 29, 2015, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipperMonkey

Somehow I'm thinking that answers will vary depending on culture.

I'm sure they do. We live in a developing country with a very steep divide between the classes (according to my social economy class in college at least). Our middle-class is virtually non-existent, it's rather made up of two extremes: upper (people like I described, mostly) and lower (who struggle to make ends meet but aren't "really" poor). It's complicated.

possum220 · Jan 29, 2015, 05:39 AM

No, you shouldn't be ashamed. Given the country that you live in is still evolving economically, it may be beneficial to pick who you choose to talk about your financial circumstances. Maybe in a few years your friends will have caught up to you.

Webgoji · Jan 29, 2015, 07:04 AM

Depends actually.

I know plenty of people that work hard and make good money, but they aren't people you want to work with and I think that's the kicker. If you backstab and politic your way through the business world, riding on the accomplishments of others and such, then you should be ashamed. On the other hand, if you work hard and your coworkers have nothing but praise for you and you elevate your work environment, then you should hold your head up high and be proud of yourself.

It's not how much you make in my opinion, it's how you got there and whether or not others are the better for it or if you crawled over people.

Jolisse · Jan 29, 2015, 07:56 AM

No, you should not be ashamed.

einsam · Jan 29, 2015, 11:27 AM

I don't think anyone should be ashamed of what they have, they just shouldn't (actually, not via sharing about themselves) rub it in the faces of those who have less or make assumptions. Shame is for people who've made public errors that make them look bad or who have done immoral things. There is no error in having enough food, and certainly not in having worked through hard times to get enough food.

We live in a vicious and insecure age, though, so it's best not to let too much show in some settings. I don't have much, but I don't resent those who do. If I was making a successful engineer's salary like my brother I'd enjoy eating out at nice restaurants and spoiling my wife, too.

Nammu · Jan 29, 2015, 03:33 PM

Most people who have a lot of outward stuff, houses, cars, stuff have huge debts, so if you have that without lots of debts you should be proud of that. Not boastful, but proud. You shouldn't need to hide anything from others. Like webgoji said it also depends on how you got there. If you can do that without climbing over others that's another reason to feel accomplished.

Livelonginspired · Jan 29, 2015, 03:46 PM

I don't think anyone should ever be ashamed or even slightly embarrassed to be well off; unless they purposely harmed others to get that way, or believe that they're better or inherently more deserving than anyone else.

kim_johnson · Jan 30, 2015, 01:48 AM

I don't think the moderately well off should be ashamed of being moderately well off. But then, I don't think the rich should be ashamed of being rich or that the poor should be ashamed of being poor, either.

Typically people feel most comfortable associating with people who have comparably to what they do. Precisely so they can feel free to complain etc about... Similar things. If most of your friends are less well off than you then you might find that going on about financial problems that you are suffering through isn't likely to win you any empathy votes. If you want to feel comfortable complaining about that, then you might need to find richer friends.

Instead of shame... Perhaps think of compassion for others. It is hard to get into the spirit of this... Something about really trying to think ones way into the lives of others... The lot of most people in this world. The lot of most people throughout history. I think it helps put some... Perspective on things. My financial troubles recceed into the background, rather, when I reflect upon just how lucky I am that I don't spend all day carting the family's water.

Jan 30, 2015, 03:32 AM

I think what your "friends" meant is, they have different friends for different reasons. Example: Nicole got a promotion at work and bought a new car. She shared With 3 friends that are struggling at work, lost their job, etc. It will be poorly received. However, sharing with a different group that are equally well off will be a positive venture. I don't see shame in being able to have nice things, but everyone has an opinion (:

Hellion · Jan 30, 2015, 03:56 PM

No I do not think someone should be ashamed if they're living comfortably off their fruits of labor. They should be ashamed if they let it go to their head and think it makes them better than people who aren't as well off or if they become a stingy jerk but not simply because they are living comfortably.

Also not so sure I'd think someone should be ashamed if they inherited money or something as its not like they had much choice...It would be how they behave with it which would determine if they ought to be ashamed or not.

That said there are some in that financial situation who claim to have got there through honest hard work that seem to feel because they've 'earned' a comfortable living that should exempt them from paying taxes or will act like the government is stealing from them for the benefit of the poor who they then spew hatred at for needing government assistance, but again that goes back into the behavior thing so I admit I am somewhat wary of those who are more well off due to this attitude as I don't know how I'd handle being told I am a parasite in person..... But there are also a lot of kind, caring people who have worked their way into a comfortable living as well.

kim_johnson · Jan 30, 2015, 04:09 PM

I think that attitude comes from guilt / shame. It is one of... Rationalization, or something like that. A psychological defense.

Guilt / shame is a very hard thing... It's social function is to get us to improve / increase our empathy for others... To encourage us to be pro-social. But if it is felt too intensely then it becomes overwhelming... And people often become anti-social as a consequence of it.

E.g., A lot of people find that it is too hard to think on the lot of those less fortunate. It gets them feeling bad / guilty about what they do have... Which is intolerable... So instead they work themselves up into believing that they are justified in what they have and other people deserve their appalling lot in life etc.

In some sense... The need in the world is overwhelming. And in some sense... It is hard to know how much to give (for example). Even if I contribute an amount comperable to a church tithe to feed the children or to help provide a clean water well for a community or towards a sanitation system for a city I still have far more than most people ever see... But do I give away everythign I have? Do I feel guilty because I brought the $7.50 option instead of the $6? Where do you draw the line...

So hard...

So much easier to not think on it at all. To work ones way into a position of believing that other people deserve whatever they have got and to full ones life with rubbish... Buying rubbish, putting it in the rubbish, burying the rubbish in the earth or the air or whatever... Just because... One can...

Catelya · Jan 30, 2015, 06:45 PM

If you are well off you are living in a different world from me and many other people. Life is different I have had money and now not so much.

lizardlady · Jan 31, 2015, 09:37 AM

Almeera, I don't think anyone should be ashamed of their accomplishments. As others have said, I would be careful who I said it to and how I said it. Congratulations to you for what you've achieved!

Almeera · Jan 31, 2015, 11:22 AM

Interesting perspective, guys. Glad to see this thread still alive and kicking!

Just thought I'd pop back in to clear a misunderstanding, though: the discussion in the opening post was just hypothetical. My family isn't doing so good money-wise that we could say we're well-off ourselves (I wish... ^^')

Thanks for sharing your perspective, everyone. It's definitely interesting.

LindaLu · Jan 31, 2015, 12:04 PM

Heard a humorous podcast describing Christmas myths popular in Iceland. He said there are 13 trolls with various scary names and a demon cat that eats children who fail to wear new clothes on Christmas Day. He said, What, an apex predator that eats the poor?! I'm shocked this legend didn't originate in America!

America has deep religious, philosophical, and political contradictions about wealth and poverty. Basically there are powerful social and economic forces that influence individual outcomes. Shaming people about their SES -- high or low -- misses the point. Social mobility in the US has been shown empirically to have fallen below that of "communist" (eg social democratic) Europe.

Werewoman · Jan 31, 2015, 12:43 PM

When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought, "what a loaded question!".

When my husband and I started our own small business back in 2000, we did it all on our own, using assets we had accumulated (like stock options I'd bought for the ten years I worked for a large corporation) and within a couple of years, we were making a little profit. I worked so that we could get health insurance, as we found buying it outright was too expensive. The next 8 years were wonderful. We were living the American Dream in a nice (not extravagant) neighborhood in a nice house driving nice cars. Our kids went to good schools and all was well. We were happy and got along great with our neighbors. We could afford to go to Disney World a couple of times a year - our favorite place.

What we never counted on was that it could/would all come to a screeching halt. We call it the perfect storm. Our son developed a heart condition which had him in and out of the CVICU at the local children's hospital off and on for the next four months while the housing bubble burst simultaneously.

My husband was an independent service technician for the cabinet making industry. We had grown the business to well over 300 customers, almost all small businesses as well - little mom and pop shops that catered to certain types of customers themselves making custom cabinetry. We were the people they counted on to keep their panel processing machines maintained and running properly. It was a symbiotic relationship where no one got rich, but we all thrived and became great friends in the process.

When the Great Recession hit, we thought we were prepared. We had done everything right. We had savings, trust funds for our kids, a line of credit if needed, etc. We knew going into it that we would have some bad months and managed the profits from the really good months to balance it all out.

Then it became obvious the phone wasn't ringing as often - we took it in stride knowing it was an election year and historically, business was slower during such times. It didn't get any better, so my husband started sending out resume's and contacting people he had known since he was a child looking for work to get us through for a while. Long story short, almost two years later, he finally got a decent job offer - making a third of what he did running his own business but we were thrilled none the less. We had to move from FL to Oklahoma, and after 4 years, we have found happiness again - just very differently.

Everything we had in FL was taken from us. We arrived here with a few boxes of clothes and family keepsakes and pictures. Everything else had been sold trying to survive in FL. Back in FL, every night you go to sleep thinking the phone will ring tomorrow (the only bill you pay because it's your lifeline to finding a job) and wake up thinking today will be the day the phone finally rings....

Now, our life is much simpler. Anything we buy we pay cash for and we rent a house that I'm guessing was built sometime in the 1940's. We are happier. We get to spend more quality time together....

While I would not wish what we went through off on my worst enemy, given the opportunity (or should I say, creating a new opportunity), we would do it again because we learned that stuff is just stuff, and losing it was painful, but it didn't kill us.

We are no more ashamed of our success for 10 years as we are the failure of our company. Both things simply were - they happened because we took a huge risk that paid off for a while and don't blame ourselves for our downfall. I don't know of any business that can survive when 2/3's of your customers go out of business as well which is what happened.

Driving out of FL, we saw numerous abandoned condo towers and shopping centers where the contractors had filed bankruptcy.

The biggest irony of all? Complete strangers and acquaintances helped us out a lot, sometimes bringing us food or help to pay our utilities while family members who were well off and could have helped did nothing. We never forgot that and we never will.

So to answer the original question, no, they should not be ashamed.

WW

LiteraryLark · Jan 31, 2015, 02:49 PM

Everyone comes from a different point of life. There will always be people who are envious of those who make better than they do, whether they earned it or it was handed down from the silver spoon. My mom instilled a recent motto for me that I've been using is "don't let other people take your joy away from you." People will always try to drag you down, no matter if your MI or not. There will ALWAYS be people who will find away to make your day miserable. You have to choose how you feel. You can choose to feel sorry for yourself and woe is me all you'd like, or you can build yourself up and choose not to let those people take your joy away. As my elementary school principal always said, "Make it a great day, or not, the choice is yours."

Koko2 · Jan 31, 2015, 03:19 PM

If you are visiting during the holidays with friends, and ask your poor friend to drive you over to the store, so you can splurge on lottery tickets but then don't share any of them, it's sort of flaunting your wealth. Why not get the lottery tickets on your own time?

Hellion · Jan 31, 2015, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSkipper

Everyone comes from a different point of life. There will always be people who are envious of those who make better than they do, whether they earned it or it was handed down from the silver spoon. My mom instilled a recent motto for me that I've been using is "don't let other people take your joy away from you." People will always try to drag you down, no matter if your MI or not. There will ALWAYS be people who will find away to make your day miserable. You have to choose how you feel. You can choose to feel sorry for yourself and woe is me all you'd like, or you can build yourself up and choose not to let those people take your joy away. As my elementary school principal always said, "Make it a great day, or not, the choice is yours."

I can't help disagreeing with that rhetoric...having depression and anxiety I know full well much of the time I cannot choose how to feel. Also it was not my choice to be made unhappy by chronic bullying...so such thinking has never helped me, well its helped me blame myself much longer than I should have.

I chose to have plenty of great days that got ruined by bullies and teachers who where in on it or got a kick out of seeing a vulnerable student singled out and bullied and encouraged the ostracism. But I know my experience is specifically why I disagree with that maybe it works for some people that have more control over their situation and aren't cornered.

Homeira · Jan 31, 2015, 05:14 PM

I think it is unfair with the steep divide in wealth in the US and elsewhere in the world, but I still dont think that one should not be ashamed of being fairly well off. But there are people who seem to think that having a little money (or much money...) entitles them to privilidges other people should not have, and who are arrogant about it. Not a good thing at all! I think that a genuine person, who is honest and kind, and is humble about ones own good fortune has nothing to be ashamed of.

Homeira · Jan 31, 2015, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellion

I can't help disagreeing with that rhetoric...having depression and anxiety I know full well much of the time I cannot choose how to feel. Also it was not my choice to be made unhappy by chronic bullying...so such thinking has never helped me, well its helped me blame myself much longer than I should have.

I chose to have plenty of great days that got ruined by bullies and teachers who where in on it or got a kick out of seeing a vulnerable student singled out and bullied and encouraged the ostracism. But I know my experience is specifically why I disagree with that maybe it works for some people that have more control over their situation and aren't cornered.

I am so sorry to hear about the bullying! People are so horrible some times.
I agree with what you are writing. When it comes to how I am feeling, a lot of the time I really dont have a choice, since I live with bipolar and have a lot of depression. But on the other hand. the statement that one can choose how to feel is a really empowering one. Some days I use it to get myself going, and some days I simply can`t.

Almeera · Jan 31, 2015, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko2

If you are visiting during the holidays with friends, and ask your poor friend to drive you over to the store, so you can splurge on lottery tickets but then don't share any of them, it's sort of flaunting your wealth. Why not get the lottery tickets on your own time?

Did that actually happen? It sounds awful!