[KathyM]

If you got caught doing something everyone does, but technically is illegal. You are a grandmother and sole care giver to your mother, children and grandchildren. You are told your only defense is to hire a lawyer, but you are unemployed and have no money or friends.

You are given two days to come up with the money. If not, you will go to jail for several years, your mother will be placed in an institution, your children will be thrown out on the streets, and your grandchildren will be given to strangers.

What would you do?

[Takane]

If I were driven to a point where I was desperate...I might take more illegal action. But only after I exhausted my resources.

Friends, other family...hell, the bank...I might go to them to see who I could get help from first. Proof that you needto surround yourself with solid relationships, with people who are good for you...

...But in the event I didn't have that, blackmail and extortion is lookin' mighty good...

i do not know what i wood do.. im wondering what everyone does thats illegal and u cood spend yrs in jail for...
is there a legal aid/free legal advice near you that you can access?

[KathyM]

Don't want to get into the specifics of the case. I'm just wondering what the average citizen in that predicament would do if they had absolutely no one to turn to for help.

(kathyM))))) can this person seek a public defender?

[nowheretorun]

appeal to the community is one thing that the person can do Kathy, in papers, or word of mouth, to family, to friends, to any group that might listen and care... when we are in a very limited space to do for ourselves, it is time for the community to come in assistance... we hope our community has the strength and will to understand the underlying factors and would agree that what is good for the individual is in fact best for the overall good of the community.. when one suffers, we all do... sending hope and prayers (((KathyM)))))

[KathyM]

Originally Posted by muffy

(kathyM))))) can this person seek a public defender?

She has no one - not even the public.

Again, I don't want to discuss the details of the case. This isn't about her.

I'm just wondering what you all would do in that situation if you had no one to turn to for help.

[gimmeice]

(((((((( KathyM ))))))))))

I guess if I had no means to hire a lawyer and no one to turn to I would defend myself, reading up on the laws that apply to the case and give it my best effort. Though if someone is unemployed they should qualify for legal aid of some sort, or they may be able to call around to find a local lawyer that would take payments or even do the case pro bono, there are many places to turn in situations like this. A church or charity may help so it would be worth looking into.

[KathyM]

Originally Posted by gimmeice

(((((((( KathyM ))))))))))

I guess if I had no means to hire a lawyer and no one to turn to I would defend myself, reading up on the laws that apply to the case and give it my best effort. Though if someone is unemployed they should qualify for legal aid of some sort, or they may be able to call around to find a local lawyer that would take payments or even do the case pro bono, there are many places to turn in situations like this. A church or charity may help so it would be worth looking into.

You could do all this in two days with screaming grandchildren, needy children, and a crying elderly mother? My hat goes off to you.

Seriously, you make a good point. I hope she'll be able to defend herself enough to be able to continue caring for her family. I'm extremely worried about them too.

To Anyone...

If it were your mother, children, and grandchildren....would you have faith the authorities would take good care of them while you're gone - and return them to you in good condition when you return?

[Irine]

[quote=To Anyone...

If it were your mother, children, and grandchildren....would you have faith the authorities would take good care of them while you're gone - and return them to you in good condition when you return?[/quote]

Do you know any people who had faith the authorities would take good care of them? Do you knwo any cases in which the outhorities took care of famaly members?

I think you should check out....

[nowheretorun]

there have been instances in the history we all were taught about authorities who abused their power and we are taught to remember so that it never happens again...... praying for the girl ((KathyM)))))

I am wondering if looking after so many people are putting a strain on her ? This may be a golden oppertunity to plead her case and say she is under a lot of stress and really could do with help not punishment ?

[KathyM]

Thanks ((Tishie))

It is extremely stressful for her and has been for a long time, but they are her family and she loves them dearly. No one else cares. As for her crime, let's just say she was exhausted after a particularly rough day and needed to unwind - maybe have a drink and let "Calgon" take it all away. No one was harmed, but she became to ugly for public consumption.

When she was initially arrested, they told her to remove all her clothing and they threw her into a cell all by herself. She's a very modest and fragile woman - she was terrified.

When she was released from prison, she tried to make it right - but it backfired and she's facing even more years in prison. I seriously doubt her community and the authorities have any compassion for her. If her mother is placed in a home, her children thrown out on the streets, and her grandchildren placed in foster homes - what will be said of her? Will strangers and the local media speak kindly of their loved one?

[nowheretorun]

sitting with you KM...

[ECHOES]

Hard to say. I prefer to face the music because it is freeing.

I don't know who is asking for money here, but I might first accept responsibility for it, then attempt to negotiate for more time to pay it.

The ones you care for--can they help you financially?

[AAAAA]

Hmm, very good question. Two days to hire a lawyer? That sounds unrealistic as our judicial system works so slowly. I would definately not trust the "system" to find acceptable accommodations for my loved ones.

There are so many things that don't make sense here, how quickly things are happening, why are her children and grandchildren being kicked out into the streets? Her adult children are not able to care for the elderly grandmother or for their own children either? I don't understand how she's not entitled to representation for a criminal case, this is one of the basic rights we have as citizens.

I too think I'd represent myself and ask for the trial that the judge decides the case rather than a jury, cannot remember what it's called. When my daughter was mauled by a dog at a young age, I was able to work a full time job, care for my 4 small children and still look up (before internet, had to do it the hard way at the library) applicable laws, prove that the county animal control did not fullfill their obligations to that part of the county, that the animal was deemed vicious long before this attack and get witness documentation to that effect, pictures from the ER and surgeon of her injuries, statments from the vet and staff that quarantined the dog and much much more. All while caring for a daughter that was so severley mauled that the dog damaged her skull and required more than 100 external stitches to her face and head.

BUT if I did something illegal, then I'd plead guilty. There are a few exceptions of course. When this same daughter went to a party at the age of 16 it was raided by the police. She had not drank any alcohol, she blew a 0.0002 which you can get by brushing your teeth, but our state has a zero tolerance policy. Since she had access to the alcohol she was given a minor in possession ticket. My first reaction was "you did it, you get the punishment." (My father was a police officer, can you tell?) I later discovered that if she plead guilty, they would put this ticket on her driver's license until she was 21, as if she'd gotten a DUI. THERE WERE NO VEHICLES INVOLVED!!! Until that point I was unwilling to let her plead anything but guilty.

In fact that is how I discovered the consequences of her entering a guilty plea, I called the number on the summons and told the woman to enter a guilty plea and let me know the cost of the fine (which my daughter would pay herself). The woman from he DA's office actually argued with me about this, I was firm on my decision that she accept the punishment that the behavior warranted. She said "fine, but your car insurance rates are going to sky rocket." Excuse me? I talked to the officer on the scene, there were no cars involved. They were in a house, everyone was spending the night, there was no driving involved, not even any drinking on her part. Then she gave me some BS explanation about the only way to keep track of this with minors is to tack it on their driving record. Sorry, the punishment must fit the crime, I cannot condone punishing her until she's 21 for being at a party and NOT drinking.

[KathyM]

Yeah, it's confusing because I didn't want to get into the details of the case.

She's over 21 (50s) and alcohol is legal. She spent six years in the military and also has a master's degree, but jobs are scarce these days and she's been unemployed since last summer. No health care benefits. Her father just died, and her mother is grieving. One of her daughters is special needs and needs a LOT of attention. Her other daughter is married to a man who just came back after three tours in Iraq and has become abusive. Her grandchildren are toddlers - 5, 3 and newborn.

Don't all the advertisements say having a drink is a way to socialize and unwind after a rough day? Those commercials make it sound like alcohol will take ALL your stress away. She decided to have a drink. It was either that or suicide. I'm glad she didn't kill herself.

As I said, no one was harmed - but she is an Indian in Oklahoma. When the police saw her drunk, they used brute force and threw her in jail. When they removed her clothing, they threw her in a cell by herself and told her to wait for "processing." She was absolutely TERRIFIED of what might happen next.

After she was released, she panicked. She'd been sexually abused and threatened by the police AND "good ol boys" for as long as she can remember.

This is where I was trying to say WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

She panicked, so she borrowed money from a friend. Unfortunately, that check had a 10-day hold, so she took it from another account until the other check cleared. Apparently, it's a federal crime and she's now facing several years.

Wouldn't YOU have dipped into your "savings" in order to save your behind from hungry rapists and control freaks to stay with your family? They need her more than those policemen and prison guards. I haven't been in that situation yet, but I think I would have done the same as her. What about you?

Yeah, she's going to have to defend herself. After what I saw in Oklahoma, I have SERIOUS doubts anyone will have any sympathy for her. They will only see a "savage" Indian who is useless to society. It's a shame because I need her too. She's a true friend, and true friends are hard to come by these days. I won't be able to visit her, and might even be dead by the time she gets out.

[KathyM]

On a side note, I hope I NEVER see the tape of my friend being arrested and "processed" on those "shocking" TV shows like COPS! I will be absolutely LIVID. Why on earth do people think those shows are so entertaining and funny?

[AAAAA]

It's hard for me to comprehend that there are police officers that are like this. My father and the men and women that worked for him and with him are all excellent, I would trust any of them with my life and my children's lives.

I have a dear friend who lives out west, who has serious medical problems (Lupus, fibro, and several others I cannot remember right now) and is almost deaf. She is nearly 60 years old, and one of the kindest most generous people that you'd ever meet in your life.

Her son has a hobby of riding in the rodeo. They set up their trailer (oddly also in OK), son competed that day and went with some others to an antique gun show when they were finished. He bought an antique revolver, LEGALLY. He took the gun out to show his mother. He was telling her about other things that he saw that day using a lot of gestures because of her hearing problem.

They were sitting at the table in their camper with the main door open having only the screen door closed. They began talking about something else, the gun was still sitting on her son's lap. They decided to get ready to cook dinner and he was going to put the gun back in the lock box. What they had not realized was that because the son was talking loudly and gesturing (again because of her hearing problem) they attracted the attention of the rent-a-cops (off duty state troopers or whatever they call them there).

Once the son reached for the gun, security demanded they put the gun on the floor and leave the camper with their hands up. She still had no idea what was going on because she couldn't hear, she saw her son going out of the camper with his hands up and she was following him clueless. They threw her to the ground, her son kept trying to explain that she couldn't hear them, she wasn't resisting, she just didn't know what was going on, which resulted in some pretty severe treatment of her son. She of course reacted to that. She told me later she had no idea what the heck was going on, these men were not in any type of uniform, one had a T-shirt that said security on the back, but she didn't see it at that time. All she saw was many men with their guns pointed at her son.

It's quite a long, frustrating story. Including the fact that they found excederine tablets and thought they were "E" because of the "E" on them. They charged her with disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, and (believe it or not) with possession of drugs with intent to distribute. The last charge was of course dropped once testing was done on the tablets. She was forced to sit in jail for several days until her husband was able to get there from Utah to bail them out.

Here's the frustrating part, they did NOTHING illegal to warrant the arrest to begin with. The police made an assumption based upon loud voices and hand gestures. Even when her medical records were faxed to the police (because they thought she was faking) they never admitted any wrong doing. Had they merely appologized and dropped the case she would have forgiven them immediately. Since they decided to continue on with the resisting and disorderly, she filed suit against the police department and won.

[KathyM]

Wow, AAAAA - How sad. It sounds like some of the policemen we have here in Chicago. It's easy for them to cover their tracks by painting their victims as guilty - by either planting evidence or wiping it away.

For goodness sake, please don't send those cops to MY house! Due to the neuropathy, I tend to flail - and people often think my son is a thug by his appearance.

It's hard to comprehend, but it can be surprising what some people will do when they think no one is watching. It's also surprising when they believe their actions don't matter and won't cause any consequences. Sometimes even the best people can be tempted to pick up a penny from the sidewalk when no one is looking, taste the cookie batter before it becomes a cookie, or kick someone else's dog or cat.

It's been said American Indians are the "invisible race" because they are usually mentioned in past tense. American Indian women are even more invisible to society - even other women often don't see them as human. Most people don't know about our treaty obligations and how it looks to the rest of the world.

Check out the statistics on violence, abuse, and oppression of American Indian women these days. Non-native men often only see them as "comfort food," non-native women often see them as servants - or competition. As a group (male/female), non-natives often see them as dogs they can kick around when they don't want to have to take it out on their own families. Non-native children are taught to "consume" them by taking on their spirit and image in order to give them strength and courage. Kinda silly, if you ask me - I thought PARENTS were supposed to teach their children to be strong and brave through the storms of life. I thought PARENTS were supposed to teach them how to walk in life.

It's a good "defense" because everyone else in their non-native community will say "but he was such a nice family man who cared about his community - he would NEVER do such a thing." Non-native people are very RARELY ever convicted of violent crimes against American Indians - and the cases are rarely even mentioned in the media.

Historically, when times are tough we turn to the natives to see what we can take from them to sustain ourselves. Once again, times are tough. When discussing the stimulus package, I was shocked to see Pat Buchanan say if money is given to American Indians for healthcare and education, it would be the "Pig out of all pig outs." What's that supposed to mean?

[nowheretorun]

((KM))) one thing i definately would try NOT to do is become surrounded by my own negative feelings and fears... if i wanted a steak and someone only offered me hamburger i would accept the kindness and continue reaching for the steak! sending my cares