out of control 9 year old

I am the father of a nine year old boy whois out of control. He has become more angry and violent over time. He is getting in more and more trouble at school, and is at risk of getting kicked out. He has been diagnosed bi-polar, adhd, and odd. We have tried counseling, and medications with little to no results.
I am married for five years with three other children aged 3 to 17, all wich are pretty well adjusted. One of my other childred is my step-son, who is also 9. He is very well behaved and generally does well in life. My wife and I have a three year-old together, and the 17yo was "inherited" from my previous marriage.
My son's mother has liitle to do with him, and when she does, there is no structure or discipline.
Examples of my sons behaviour...The other day he held a pencil in his hand in a threatening manner to our 3yr daughter. My wife saw this, grabbed the pencil, and told him to never do that again. He looked at her and told her..next time it will be a knife. My wife and I were talking the other night, and she told me she can no longer handle this and needs to leave. My son, who overheard the conversation, next morning told her its about time she left. These examples are just a drop in the bucket in everyday life.
To him everything is someone else's fault, and nothing is fair, no matter how hard we try to keep everything the same between all kids. Yes, he has major anger issues, which we have tried to work on.
I do disicpline my son to the letter, and I feel that may be one of the problems. He has been told by various counselers, that we can only spank him with an open hand on a clothed bottom. This has little to no effect on him. He no longer has the "fear of Dad" most kids have. Loosing priviledges means nothing to him and has no effect. I tried the Total Transformation Program guidelines with him, and no change. I recently spent $750 for a referenced eeg, which was supposed to show exactly what medication he needs. This new medication helps to a point, but just masks issues. He is currently on d-amphetamine which makes he behave like a tweeker. He has also been on quite a few other meications with mixed results
I am at my wits end. I feel it is time to have him placed somewhere. My coming to this descision was not easy, as I do love my son and tell him all the time. It has come to the point where he is a serious threat to the rest of the family.
My wife has truely tried helping him, but after constant verbal abuse from him, has given up. I feel that we can no longer keep him in the house as his threats are becoming more intense, and it is a matter of time before he does hurt someone. As far as placing him somewhere, I am of working class, with a large family, and can not shell out big $$ to place him in a boarding school or care facility, and there is only so much insurance will provide.
If anyone has any ideas,,please throw them out there, because I am pretty much outta them.

Hello stresseddad, welcome to psych central.
Have you asked his counselor if there are any outpatient programs that may be able to help him? Some areas offer more programs then others and they may not be well advertised.

Let me say first off, BP is no reason for anyone to be rude. If they say it is, its an excuse.

Your son needs a hefty and swift boot camp session. Threatening your 3 yo IS NOT in any way healthy, and that something I would have whipped his behind for. Threating to kill his own family.

Stop giving him everything and take away all of his privileges. Tell your wife this isnt something you can just run away from, this is a time for family support, NOT splitting up. If she bails on you, it shows you the kind of women she is. Im sorry, but you know that is no excuse neither.

Your 9 yo is out of control, and he does need serious mental help. And after he gets mental help - send him to child boot-camp. It will fix him up real fast.

After he gets out though - You have to keep that trend up and be firm, strong, yet fair.

I know you cant dish out huge bucks - but if you choose one option, make it boot camp.

Im so sorry you have to deal with that, you can also try to figure out what his probblem is. Why is he so hateful.

I had similar issues with my son when he turned fourteen. He would stab the walls with a knife, threatened to kick my sister's butt and grabbed her arms and grabbed his biological dad by the throat. My son was in a psychiatric hospital three different times. I wanted him to go to a school for wayward teens but he controlled his rage while in the hospital and they said he was making positive change and sent him home with me. If your child is court ordered to a home for problem children the state will pay the bill.

Is there any possibility that your son has been sexually abused by somebody and has not told you?

I would talk to a psychiatrist. I hope that you keep trying with him even though this is very hard for you. You know kids hate it when you take things away from them. I would have a talk with him on his level first. I would tell your son if he does this behavior this will happen. If he does another behavior that will happen. Like if he likes tv, and he talks back, take away his tv privilages. When he back talks your wife, she needs to discipline him. She could put him in time out, or she can take something away from him. When you say that your going to do these things, you really need to stick with it. I'm not sure if you have thought about this, but maybe some kind of a sport would be good for him. Like soccar, it would be a good excerise for him, because he can run and play off some of his energy. Maybe bike riding. He might like that. keep us posted so we know how you are.

No offense, but the "child boot camps" out there are horrible and have been proven multiple times to be incredibly dangerous and the kids are actually abused while they are there. I agree with the person who said that though this is tough, you really can't just put your son out. Outpatient care is a great idea and I bet your child services in your area would help provide this support. My school district (public schools) provides all kinds of intervention care, behavioral therapies, in-school "safe" time outs...there are a lot of options. I am really sorry your son is behaving like this. My younger brother was very similar and my mom and step dad DID put him into a "boot camp", around the age of 12. That was quite possibly the point of no return for him in his childhood. From there, where he was severely abused (the place he went has actually been the focal point of many national news reports and several federal investigations). My point is that he was never the same after he went there. He was disconnected from the whole family after he came back. I cannot help but think this had a lot to do with my mom and step dad choosing to "remove" him from our family. He was violent, he threatened us, he shot my other brother with a pellet gun (to hurt him, not on accident), damn, there were so many things he did that I cannot even list them all. His story has a sad, sad ending though. After boot camp THREE times he then went through the juvenile justice system on and off until he was an adult. At the age of 19 he actually robbed a bank at gun point. He's now in federal prison and the abuse that started at 12 obviously only escalated. He's been hurt in ways that I cannot even fathom in prison. Granted I, in NO WAY, excuse the things he did, but I honestly and wholeheartedly believe that my parents let him down. He has mental health problems and that has always been apparent, but instead of doing anything productive or pro-active about it, he was called "hyper-active" and was spanked hard and often, to no avail. Never did they take him to any sort of mental health support person. Dang, this is long, but I am really relating to you and I understand that you want to help your son; my feeling though, is that sending him "away" isn't going to do anything to help him interact positively with your family. Don't give up on him. I really hope you can find someone to help you. Again, try social services, they are usually very helpful in these situations. The school councilor is probably a good source of information on what is available in your area.

I need to know, so I can better understand.... but why does it seem that "boot camp" is always suggested by you
when a child is out of control (even when its due to mental illness)?

humm, I suggested it to him and one other person.

Child boot camps work. Its not abusive (they dont hit your child or anything else) They make them work of what they need. Thats for those kids that are WAY out of line (ummm threatening to kill a 3yo) and really need some discipline.

Where oh where did you even read that they are abusive? They do not hurt your kid, they dont harm them and beat them or anything, yall are making it sound like its just a torture chamber. Do yall even know what abuse is? I bet you think spanking your child is abusive.

And Im sorry your brother had a bad experience there. But not all of them are wild-crazy and un-organized. Thats like eating one bad apple and saying "All apples are bad."

Anyways, I do not have to sit here and justify MY opinions, since i never asked any of yall to justify YALLS.

And little miss Rhapsody - If you want to sit there and keep saying every little thing that is wrong IS due to a mental health issue, all grapes to you. Whatever makes your world tick.

Like I said, Im giving MY opinion. But do not sit there and cut it down when all you can suggest is more pills. So leave my OPINIONS alone. That goes for all of you - drop it.

get him a therapist and allow him to see the therapist long term. If your gonna punish make it consistent.

btw spanking on the bum never killed anyone.

I think that someone needs to listen to him. I can't imagine what is going on in his head. Punishment just makes things worse. Consequences are okay, though. Everyone needs consequences...........

Children learn compassion by being treated compassionately. If everyone reacts to him negatively and punitively this is exactly what he will learn.

Next time he does something like this ask him how he is feeling and what is going on with him. You can also teach him how he affects others. If anyone is going to reach this boy it will have to be in a humane way.

This can all be accomplished with keeping the family safe too.

I am sorry if my question upset you to the point of becoming angry... I asked it honestly so I could understand WHY you felt that boot camp was a reasonable suggestion for a child that has a mental disorder? - and please know that I do not feel that every thing "gone wrong" is due to mental issues as I know (all to well) that many sick evil people live in the world.

My thoughts are he has poor self worth....

His mother more or less leaving him alone, feeling rejected (not your fault) by the fact that you have a three year old, he has learned that one way to get attention be it negative or otherwise is to behave in this way.

Not sure how practical it is to try ignoring the negative in favour of praising the positive however I am sure this is something you have already tried as you sound like a good parent !

I think without seeing your little man in action any advice is going to be of a general nature. my experience is once children have gone in this direction it is hell on earth trying to draw them back. As you are trying to over come the jealousy from so many different areas that even your son cant name.

I feel for you very best of luck try not to give up.

I think I would try to get court ordered help involving the mother who you say just lets him go. Maybe something in that home setting is causing a lot of the problems. I would be very fearful of a child that age who even threatens with a knife at all. There is something in that childs head that no one knows about! Maybe abuse in some form? Good Luck!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystalrose btw spanking on the bum never killed anyone.

But does spanking help?

I have only spanked my child two times in twenty years; once when we were hiking in the woods and he hit our dog with a stick and once when he started hitting me in the abdomen in a rage. With my ADHD defiant son I found time out most effective until he became a teenager and then he started losing privileges for undesirable behavior. I do not condone corporal punishment of children.

"There appears to be a linear association between the frequency of slapping and spanking during childhood and a lifetime prevalence of anxiety disorder, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems". http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/161/7/805

"This report synthesizes one hundred years of social science research and many hundreds of published studies on
physical punishment conducted by professionals in the fields of psychology, medicine, education, social work,
and sociology, among other fields. The research supports several conclusions:

1.There is little research evidence that physical punishment improves children's behavior in the long term.
2.There is substantial research evidence that physical punishment makes it more, not less, likely that children will be defiant and aggressive in the future.
3.There is clear research evidence that physical punishment puts children at risk for negative outcomes, including increased mental health problems.
4.There is consistent evidence that children who are physically punished are at greater risk of serious injury and physical abuse".
http://www.phoenixchildrens.com/PDFs...discipline.pdf

You mentioned your child has been having problems at school. Is he in regular ed or special ed classes or combination? When my son was put in a special ed class in elementary school for a written language disability he quickly picked up on behaviors other troubled children were displaying. It became apparent when he called his teacher a ***** because we never used that word at home. The school wanted me to "fix him" (he was nine y/o) and all I could think of was to have him write the definition of respect and give it to his teacher. I ended up feeling really bad later when I found out his special ed teacher had been assaulting my son and other students. I believe she must have grown up in a home where physical assault was acceptable because she was comfortable telling us her behaviors and even gave me a written description of her actions. There are no words to describe my fury when I found out what she had been doing to my child. I pulled my son out of school, met with the assistant superintendent and the next day they had two people observe her in class. Two days later she was terminated. The only reason I did not file criminal charges against her is because I think in her mind she did not really believe she was doing wrong.

My point is you need to start questioning everything about your son's environment. Take time to visit classes at school to observe without a scheduled appt. Perhaps there is something going on there that is stressing him to the point that he does not cope.

My son would get very hyper during class and we decided the best intervention for him at that time was to walk the halls accompanied by an aide that he liked until he was calm enough to return to class.

This sounds like a very complex problem and will likely not have a single simple answer.

I would love to know more about your child and his history and the development of his problems. Clearly he is feeling unwelcome (unloved?) by his stepmother due to overhearing her vent her distress so perhaps she and he might start spending some one on one time together without his siblings. It doesn't have to be lots of time but perhaps a trip for ice cream or reading a special book just to him. He is old enough to understand that his stepmom finds his behavior unacceptable but he is still loved despite his shortcomings.

As for the biological mother you can't change her poor behaviors but perhaps she should not be spending unsupervised time alone with your son until it is known how she is interacting with him.