Universal Basic Income

Could it really work ? As like described by Rutger Bregman . A set allowance for everyone in society. If you listen to him his theories are very interesting . I actually think it is the way forward . But a fantasy in our current society . There is no way the elite 5% who control the world would let it happen . The rest of us are only here to make that 5% richer .
Our system is slowly failing though , eventually we will have to find another way . But for the current system to collapse completely we will probably need a WWIII or a GFC which goes to meltdown , so I hope it's after I'm gone to be honest . We will also have to find another way of selecting our leaders . The least constructive traits of human beings are greed , and a lust for power . We all have these traits in varying strengths in our character , the bad thing is for people to get to the levels of leadership in our society they need to have the highest levels of a lust for power and greed . Then after that the biggest liar wins . We need to change the selection process . Choose leaders according to human nature traits that are good , not bad ...and find a way good people can get to positions of authority .
Universal Basic Income . Rutgers Bregman , check it out . Utopia .
The studies show mental health issues drop in real life studies following these principles .. not to mention crime dropping and medical issues lowering . Happy people ... crazy ideas huh .

I love the idea of a universal basic income, and every study I've heard of on the topic has portrayed it in a positive light. I fantasize about having an income like that some times, thinking of all the things I would be able to afford and all the people around me I would be able to help support.

interesting idea but I dont ever see it happening and heres why....

everyone in the whole world gets paid at minimum wage (about 1000 a month give or take)

a painter spends about 1000-3000 to paint the outside of someones house average sized home they have just used up their monthly income and more painting someones house.

a farmer spends this and more (seeds, seedlings, plants, fertilizer, water, equipment, harvesting, shipping to stores) the food we eat.

my point though its an interesting idea if it ever actually happened where everyone in the whole world was paid a set amount it could very well lead to the human extinction.

if you mean everyone in a set job gets paid a certain amount that already happens. its called salary pay. we have careers and jobs that are set at minimum wage and we have careers and jobs based on hours put in, ( time and labor)

UBI would be a set amount paid to every citizen according to the purist form of the theory . Any paid work would be above and beyond that and taxed accordingly . How do you pay for that ? If you believe the supporters of the idea ( and it's not new , it dates back 500 years ) the savings from welfare and lower social disfunction costs would fund it . So no one would bother working , that is what people say who don't support the idea . Maybe that's true , but in the studies they did in Dauphin Canada in the 1970's it reflected a 5% drop in work hours and mainly attributed to mothers and people returning to school to increase their skills .

It's a theory and I'm not going to parrot fashion it here . If interested you can research yourself . I do think our current system is past it's use by date though . If a space man came down and you were trying to explain our system to them it would seem a bit odd don't you think . Hello Mr spaceman , yes that's right 3% of the population control 90% of the worlds wealth . We still have poverty and we still have working poor and struggling lower middle class who continue to make bad choices and cost the state huge amounts of money as they are desperately unhappy . 80% of our income tax goes to funding the welfare system , so in effect we have not enough money left to run the current system anyway . Our system is based on greed and a lust for power by the few . We are indoctrinated in school that this is the only way , so we just accept it and meekly plod along . We live in a world where people who are good at playing basketball get 50k a game , and people who collect the garbage and keep our health safe are on minimum wage … crazy .

Sorry to revive a 3 month old thread. I was looking for something else in this forum but came across this article and well, I can't resist.

Anyways, I am an advocate of UBI and I think we will have to switch to it eventually.

Let's face it, within 20-30 years robots will replace manual labor jobs and many other jobs that aren't STEM related. Robots will take over and nothing can be done about it. Those painting and farming jobs you mentioned will be done entirely by robots; it's only a matter of when. With that being said, the world would benefit as a whole from such a situation.

I would simply say, once AI becomes sufficiently advanced to take over all of the manual labor jobs (let's face it, who the hell WANTS to work a manual labor job), we give the people displaced by such a change UBI along with all disabled and low income people. We could simply take and consolidate all welfare and disability programs into UBI, which would help cover the costs.

In such a system, work would shift to the more educated populace since jobs would be primarily STEM and medical jobs, while everybody else gets enough to get their needs met. That way, there would still be incentive to get an education and get a good job, the economy doesn't collapse and everybody has their needs met.

Just the view of somebody with a passing interest in transhumanism.

Even STEM and medical jobs are not protected from AI. Algorithms already do better in diagnosing a disease than an experienced doctor.

True enough.

I see STEM jobs evolving with AI. Obviously some would disappear though.

Regardless, I would be OK with a world where money and work don't exist.

I would give anything to live in a fully augmented virtual reality world where I don't have to hurt anymore.

Soon AIs will be better at everything. Then who would want a human doctor? Or a human plumber? Or a human anything? I worry about what happens to people when they have no purpose.

Make the robots do all the boring work and let humans do whatever they want.

I foresee something like a techno Anarchy where humans are free to do as they please but aren't allowed to wield any power. I would trust AI to run the functions of a government over human politicians since almost all humans are prone to corruption. A human with power is dangerous and untrustworthy.

Besides, I still want to live in a fully augmented virtual reality world or have my consciousness locked inside a video game. I already escape pain and loneliness through countless hours of gaming so why not live in one? I want to be done with this world already.

Actually, we humans for the majority of our history as hunters-gatherers worked very little (we hunted a big game once every a while), and spent the majority of our time socializing and taking care of each others, exploring the world, and just ... having fun. The time humans have decided to settle down some 5000 years ago or so was the beginning of suffering for most humanity. Social hierarchy and slavery appeared only after we settled in villages and cities, and it continues in our society today in a form or another. Humans live longer on average now, sure, but this wasn't the case until recently (in the last 50 years).

Now most people work between 40-60 hours a week. There is no time for anyone, including children. The upside of AI is that maybe we can find more time to each others again. Maybe this is the purpose of humans after all. Work doesn't quench the soul's thirst, and people don't wish to have worked harder on their deathbeds. However, for this to happen, we need to restructure our society and economy, and redistribute the wealth in the age of AI where there will be less and less jobs for humans to do. Only time will tell what will actually happen. Humans are still resisting automation when they can. I know many customers don't use the self-check out machines because they take the cashiers jobs. Doctors are not convinced algorithms do better ... etc.

Most animals in nature are accountable, instinctual and consistent (a form of robot I guess). Humans are one of the few species with such spontaneity, making them dangerous. But what if they weren't able to compute things like social justice, architecture, law and government (for example).

I think an equal distribution of wealth is a taunting and extremely good idea. We could all feel safe and be safe in that we would know what to expect and when. We could spend more time thinking about how to build the next tower and what color to paint the next house. And all the houses could even be the same color, creating a peaceful type of utopian world. We could then focus on important issues, such as conservation and efficiency, motivational practices and complex ideology with or without judgment Just a quick thought.

Some people say this would make people lazy. Maybe, maybe not. There's always going to be lazy people, universal income or not.

We're the homeless capital of the world. I'd rather have "lazy" people on universal income than more and more people ending up on living on the streets. They can't make enough to feed, house, and clothe themselves. Everyone should have that.

There's no job security, even with a good paying job. If you lose your house, your job, etc., it's just "too bad". (That's the mindset I see here)

This does make people lazy because people are lazy and this is the natural human way. Bigger game, better dinner, badder doubt. Do less work, make more money. Yet we are all not able to accomplish the 'bigger, better, badder' lifestyle. We don't all aim to accomplish that kind of lifestyle. Often, it is lazy people who are living on the street. Although, I do like what people are capable of performing when that much time is given to them. Marionettes, dance, art, cicustry, painted standing figures, etc. I wonder what kind of opportunities were given to them??

And here, most of the population lives with excess. We can afford to feed, clothe, educate and house the homeless. We should. I thank you. And again, I agree with you noniteowl, there is little job security, more so in newer markets, and that is exactly where we are putting our attention. I can't speak for a high paying job since the most income I have been able to generate would be considered peanuts to some, but competition is a driving force and, unfortunately, is not the only driving force that keeps us at outs.

I would like add that although I feel it is important to utilize local resources in managing your own mental health, much of the work has to be done at home, access to fancy healthcare or not. Often doctors do not emphasis preventative mental health care to those not actively seeking it out and I suppose are prone to assume the best. Things like generational differences and recessive traits are often looked over even when reported. Maybe because I have been an athlete and productive community member most of my life, I was not conscious of my problems until they surfaced as adult with limited access to healthcare. Maybe that is why DBT core skills and CBT are being encouraged within current systems, as many are lazy, many simple don't know what to do in an unstructured environment.

I don't agree that it's mostly lazy people on the street. They are from all walks of life, and there's been a series in our paper about the homeless and their stories. Some are just like most people, except for the lack of shelter. In this country, a hard-working person can become homeless in a blink of an eye---one missed paycheck or one lost job. We have few safety nets here. It is so easy to end up like that if one loses their job and has no back up of any kind, no family, no friends, no one to give a ****. And you know employers don't give people a second thought when they show them the door. They could be putting someone on the street but what do they care?

And, just because one is working does not mean they are not lazy on the job. I've seen this first-hand, as well as from friends who work with people pulling less than their weight...Yet, they are getting paid.

Now with the government shutdown, many people don't know when they will get paid. Or they have to work without pay.

Honestly, regardless of what happens, when I think about the future, I feel a weird combination of excitement and fear. Such a feeling is almost euphoric joy for me I have difficult explaining it further.

Humanity has the potential to evolve into a race of demigods pretty much thanks to our technological advancements. If any humans from even 100-200 years ago were able to see what we're becoming they would think that we wield magic or something.

We just need to play our cards right. The next 30-50 years will be our hardest yet I think but if we are able to push through and survive, we will have a utopian civilization so advanced that even any gods that may exist would envy us.

This sentence rings true in so many ways.

Your "bigger game" mindset that you were describing is exactly what my end goal is in life. I want to make the most possible money with the least amount of work involved. I honestly couldn't care less about contributing to humanity because I know that there are people who are smarter, stronger, and lack my mental health issues doing that job better than I could hope to. My only motive is freedom and pleasure above all else.

I don't think I'm alone in this mindset either. I think we are going through a major paradigm shift right now because more people are waking up and realizing that working for 40-60 hours a week is making them unhappy. Millenials get such crap for being lazy but I think that people are just tired of struggling. There is already a major shortage of qualified people in certain jobs that require 8-12 hours of work each day like nurses, health professionals, firefighters, police, and other jobs that are important for a society to function. Also, there are an abundance of things one can do to make a decent enough living without working more than 30 hours per week that didn't exist 10-20 years ago.

Anyways, I know that I'm rambling at this point my bad haha

I stand corrected. Thank you

There is nothing wrong with laziness anyways.

Humans evolved to seek knowledge and use their creativity for self fulfillment and problem solving, not do boring grueling work 40-60 hours per week.

Just my 2c

AI in medical diagnosis has not been validated. In psychiatry it is especially dubious since people's symptoms change and drug combinations are unique to individuals and moments in time. You might be able to treat high blood pressure mechanically, but there are many diagnoses, psychiatric included, that require a human ear, sensitivity, and insight. AI gives none of that. Careful what you wish for. You may end up very, very, sorry.

Agreed.

I still think that AI, no matter how advanced or intelligent it becomes, will still fall short in some aspects.

For example, a robot may learn to mimic human emotions but a robot would never have genuine feelings like a human does. Also, a robot may be able to think only logically, but it would never be able to process or understand emotions like a human can.

To make matters simple, a robot could have an inhumanly high IQ, but a really low EQ. Not everything can be understood by pure logic alone. Emotional intelligence is just as important.

So when we get to the point where AI becomes that advanced, the only logical thing for us humans would be to merge with them. Brain implants to augment our human intelligence with AI would bring out the best in both worlds and build the ultimate human. When I made my post about humanity evolving into a race of demigods, merging with AI is how I will see such a feat being accomplished.

When/if such a scenario came to fruition, we would still have plenty of human doctors, scientists, engineers, ETC. These humans would simply be augmented to interface with AI.

Our next stage of evolution is through our technology, not through millions of years of natural selection. I for one, am excited.

Also, this site might be a good read for some:

Future Timeline | Technology | Singularity | 2020 | 2050 | 2100 | 2150 | 2200 | 21st century | 22nd century | 23rd century | Humanity | Predictions | Events

It is a timeline into the future that based off part fact, part fiction. Each prediction has legitimate sources listed for it's basis. This site, in fact, made me start loving and appreciating science back when I found it about 10 years ago.

i think there is an argument here, that logic encapsulates emotion in a form of calculated consideration. In being a robot, one is programmed to perform a specific task, rationally inept to vary from this pattern, true to itself in every way. therefore encompassing both EQ and IQ at the peak of perfection.

I think there is a third kind of intelligence that is being described here. Intuition? Sanity maybe.

Because humanity thrives on competition we will have no choice but to merge ourselves, human or other, to keep up with challenges and practical adversity. Minding our best and worst selves are both god-like and post demigod traits, striving for what is in our reach will always be the natural way. We only mirror ourselves when we are forced to suffer and want or need something unobtainable. Within our own achievements, all is obtainable, but wanting, needing, earning and searching is often lost within emotional boundaries and lack there-of demanding. Clearly, humans and robots would battle only to maintain their existence and to build a better world for themselves, knowing no bounds in numbers. I agree merging is unavoidable, but is is not unlike the underdog (robot, human alike) to stand strong for those who can not.

50 - 60 years from now will be mid- or late- century, and for me, imagining 2030 is difficult. According to your timeline @DarknessIsMyFriend, that will be 2090 yet time will move as slow as it always has until we get there. The F C C were clueless to the fact the inventions of the television would change how we see the world. Black and white and color television were only so much of an improvement on the radio, but here we are today exchanging more informed live action thoughts and ideas through everyday interactions and occurrences. Yet some still demand more. As your timeline suggests, 50 - 60 years from now, more hardworking folk may be happier working less hours per week at a highly skilled level. Of course there will always be those who put in their 40-50 hpw, and would expect reasonable compensation.

And not to only mention there are those who are immune to rapid change and advancements, but many remain hopeful. What will become of those creatures? Is it fair to say that one cannot exist without the other? Must we all merge to secure our safety and livelihood in an inevitable spiraling future? Or is that all too-far beyond our vision to determine?

Daniel Kahneman, a Nobel Laureate, in his book Thinking, Fast and Slow talks about the biases (systematic errors) of humans. Because we are emotional creatures, this clouds our judgments. Algorithms don't suffer from this. He gives examples from the health care and juridical systems how doctors and judges make systematic errors because of their reliance on intuitions, but they refuse to admit that algorithms can do better even when they see the results.