[circles5]

Hi there.

i've had two rounds of therapy for my anxiety disorders.
the most recent was stopped as i am living with my NPD dad who is making life impossible let alone in depth therapy.


but both times round i've told them that one of my main concerns {if not the}
is that i have Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
it's the reason i can't see any hope in getting better.

And every time i talk to a medical professional they pretty much laugh it off.!
i come across too 'nice' and not confident enough... i think.
but without fail they totally dismiss my concerns before the 1min mark.

i just don't know who to turn to for a diagnosis and subsequent help.
i mean this is the Maudsley we're talking about... a big name in mental health and therapies...
and they won't even talk to me about it, let alone discuss the possiblity..

it's as if i've just said the worst thing in a given scenario...
they just quickly brush it under the carpet, as if i'd forget...?
i just want to be taken seriously on this matter.
not all narcissists are blindingly obviously narcissists.
it's what goes on under the bonnet that counts.

don't know what to do.
Bx

I think it's pretty thoughtless for them to totally discredit you. The biggest factor of a personality disorder is the fact that it is causing significant impairment in one's functioning.
But probably a major factor about their dismissal is the fact that the way in which one views themselves can be very vastly separated from their reality. Even though I have not sought the diagnosis of my ASPD, I battle with the uncertainty of whether or not it would be detected & what the implications would be if it were. If they detect it, will they not take anything else seriously? Will they think I'm faking everything? And if not, what could happen if I derail from my delusion of control & just lose it one day? It's entirely possible & I don't want to risk that based on the ignorance of a psych.
But considering it's NPD? Low self-confidence is actually one of the qualifying criteria, though most narcissists are unaware of just how horribly they feel about themselves. Thus the facade of importance & pathological self-assurance.
Me, for example? I get told by everyone that I'm so nice, so generous, & that I'm so this/that/the other thing. But who I am inside & what I act like without massively overthinking things is entirely different from how I portray myself. Some people just find better ways to function. I'm usually, if not always bored. Oftentimes I entertain people's personal/relationship problems because I have nothing better to do... Overtly, I am being an incredibly sensitive individual when, "underneath the bonnet" I couldn't give a single **** about them or their situation.
Perhaps try writing something out & giving it to your professional? Basically give them the reason you are in therapy, the reason why it is vital you receive therapy, & an ultimatum of taking you seriously or you'll take your money/insurance to be used on someone worthwhile.

[here today]

I had a breakdown several years ago so my personality, fragmented on the inside, also became kind of fragmented on the outside. Diagnosis 2 years ago was DDNOS and PDNOS. One of the parts seems NPD like my father. Another, capable of not caring and even (horrors!) wanting to hurt people who she is mad at, is almost ASPD. So – I have had to try to learn to get along with these parts of myself.

Not that you give a darn, Shay, but I think I understand where you are coming from. I’ve had my own problems and issues with therapists who don’t understand PD’s. Or want to. Unfortunately, I don’t think most therapy has much to offer most PD’s yet. So they don’t talk about it.

For me – after many disappointments with therapy, I found a therapist who specializes in dissociative disorders and she’s helped me. She is capable of having a relationship with almost anyone, me included, and she demonstrates what it is like in real-time, so I can learn.

Do you think you might try looking for someone who specializes in relationship issues, circles, and not be too concerned about the diagnosis?

[circles5]

Hi Shayatanica and here today.
thanks for taking the time to answer.

'I battle with the uncertainty of whether or not it would be detected & what the implications would be if it were. If they detect it, will they not take anything else seriously? Will they think I'm faking everything?'

yeah i feel like that...

'But who I am inside & what I act like without massively overthinking things is entirely different from how I portray myself'

please correct me if i've got the wrong idea..
Are you referring to how you act naturally, without conditioning and re-evaluating your response?
if so, i've been trying to think of that as 'getting in touch' with your good self'
^ as i do see a right and wrong when i act out like i do.. and i'm desperately
trying to adhere to my good nature.. and the innocent kid that must still be there somewhere in me... - my 'self'?
or is that good, grace.. all a big lie>?
am i literally a fraud.. even to myself?

this realization has been such a MindF*.
i don't want... and can't be as horrible as i have been in the past/present.
It's the most important people in my life that i hurt.
I really want to get better for the people in my life..
My poor, lovely mum has landed herself in a truly terrible situation.
Npd {ex}husband.. and two npd kids.
and she doesn't believe i'm like that.. and i must keep her from the truth.
so i've got to get better. -
but as you mentioned.. - theres not much ground been covered in treatment techniques/therapies..
-------------------------

^ i've decided not to have kids. i can't put a kid through what i've been through knowingly.
so that sucks..
i've also decided, unless i get better, i won't get in a relationship with anyone.
: I know i'm kinda exiling myself.. and i'm not sure thats the right thing to do..
but i can't treat people like i do.. it makes me feel sick.. (after the funs over)
and since i've become aware.. it's not fun in the moment either..
i'm just painfully aware of how i'm acting and my inclination to be spiteful -putting it lightly. Sadistic moreover.
so i spend that time doing everything i possibly can to not let the people i'm with catch on to my train of thought..
people have been close... but their own good nature and sheer disbelief that i.. - their friend would say/think such a thing - keeps them in the dark.
{i know ^ that {exile} sounds really extreme.. but it's because i'd see that as me becoming my dad.}

i remember back in the day... when i was 'plotting' i would always have to close my eyes to shield my soul from the company i shared.
and it's not anxiety disorder related.
i was aware i was having these !Wrong! thoughts, and i didn't want to get caught...

'I'm usually, if not always bored. Oftentimes I entertain people's personal/relationship problems because I have nothing better to do... Overtly, I am being an incredibly sensitive individual when, "underneath the bonnet" I couldn't give a single **** about them or their situation.'

^yeah that kindove thing. But i really want to give a *. but i just can't naturally.
or at least currently.
i can emulate the feelings... but it feels mechanical, seudo, false, unorganic to me and how i would conduct myself if i didn't feel pressure/guilt to behave appropriately.
>i'm to the point of wandering if i do feel guilt about my treatment of other people.. or is it just that i'm afraid of not seeming perfect and of being shown up as missing something / or inferior..

----------

here today
i'm glad you found a therapist who's got you and helped.
that sounds a difficult thing to experience.
:i don't know.. i really would like an official diagnosis, otherwise i feel really odd about not knowing 100% whats up.
but relationships are a very tricky area for me at the moment, so it is definitely something i should look into.

'capable of having a relationship with almost anyone, me included, and she demonstrates what it is like in real-time, so I can learn.'
^that sounds Very much something that would help me tremendously..

i just need to figure myself out.. i've devoted 2 years now inside my head. made alot of progress i feel. But i still need to know why i tick.
what the hell happened to me that f*ked me up so much in my youth i became a narcissist.

there is hope though. i do hold compassion for a select few. namely my mum.

Thanks for you replies again.
all the best.
circles.

here today: Most dissociative people have their fragmented personalities with different personality disorders. Most people who have dealt with traumatic/abusive/neglectful upbringings come out with different coping mechanisms. Usually they are PDs, but if someone is able to disassociate? Often whichever fragments deal with different issues will gain the PD that is reactively caused. At least that's what I've observed... I've read a lot of books on DID, at least, & have noticed the different personality disorders per each alter. Dependent, histrionic, narcissistic, sadistic, etc. etc. It's all very interesting. There are even some multiples here on PC who have alters with bipolar while the rest do not. : )


circle: I don't see any right or wrong about it. Right & wrong is too dualistic. But I am able to judge what I should do to avoid screwing up & what I'd like to do but isn't very smart. Honestly? This is really the best I can probably hope to do & I just have to keep that motivating me. I'm probably the wrong person to be telling you this, because I do it all the time... But don't take it too hard on yourself that you have to compromise in order to keep living the way you do. If anything, at least you're honest with yourself. Most people overlook being honest with themselves so they can pretend they are good people, when deep inside, they are probably worse than either of us.
Well, you don't have a total lack of empathy, which is good. At least that is something to go off of. And there's no reason to totally "exile" yourself. I've got a boyfriend who knows what I'm like. Someone who TRULY gives a **** & who you can form a close, honest relationship with doesn't care what you are like. The fact that you are showing the resolve to fix it is enough to show that you're a well-meaning person. At least that's what I've been told. ; )
I know what you mean... Though the only time I ever experience anxiety or "fear" that anyone will find out is if I'm manic OR if I'm also having obsessive thoughts. Have you ever looked into Pure O OCD? I used to have a great deal of, putting it nicely, homocidal fantasies & I think it had a lot to do with that. An antisocial palette colouring my obsessions. Now that I've figured out what it is majorly attributed to, it's much easier to calm myself down & get to a place of relaxation where I can ignore my destructive thoughts. Maybe that's why your therapist discounts your hypothesis? They see you as a good person who is just worried about their thoughts... I dunno.
For me personally? It's not guilt. But I also feel a weird twinge after I do something awful. It's, as you said, pressure. But if you are feeling at least SOME sort of need to prove that you're not some kind of "monster" in other people's eyes, you're halfway there. Don't worry too much.
Also, look into "schema therapy" online. Evidently that's the best thing they have going thus far when it comes to personality disorders.

[here today]

Though you didn’t direct your comment to me, thanks so much for mentioning schema theory. I’ve done a lot of research on personality disorders, too, but missed that one!! Definitely a deficiency in my self-education, soon to be remedied I hope.

[marcion]

First, PLEASE do not blame yourself (i.e., I'm not assertive enough with my therapists, etc).

They are the professionals, they are supposed to know where to start, read between the lines, tease out the issues. If I come into the hospital with a mild stomach ache, it's the *doctor's* job to know whether it's just a tummy ache or emergency appendicitis!! I go to the doctor because I don't know all the issues involved - I'm seeking a diagnosis & treatment. Same for mental heath.

We all need to be extra careful to be gentle with ourselves. It takes a loooong time to sink in, but victims of N-personalities & stalking are victims, not responsible at all for any of the behavior. Zero responsibility (hope to be clear here) - all we wanted in life is to be loved, to have connection with another person, etc., and we are not responsible for somebody else's illness, or their inability to love us in an appropriate manner.

Ok, to answer the heart of your question, here's my 2¢ (coming mostly from the book, Beyond Therapy Beyond Science) -- Dr. Schaef points out that most people in the helping professions are themselves codependent. This is one reason it is soooo difficult to find a good therapist.

Speaking from both clinical & personal experience, Dr. Shaef argues that people who come from abusive, traumatic homes often go into counseling, psychology, etc., as a form of self-diagnosis. This is why AA was born, for example - because such a tremendous percent of therapists themselves grew up with alcoholic parents. So when the family of an alcoholic came to them complaining of abuse, the therapist would say, "What's the problem? My dad hit me, and I turned out ok!"

After almost a year of searching, my wife finally found a therapist familiar with narcissism. The therapist said, "Oh my god I'm so sorry - narcissists are the worst to deal with, it's almost impossible for them to have a breakthrough and I'm so sorry you're going through this". That is what I call an appropriate professional response.

So I found books by Ann Wilson Schaef very helpful - she doesn't talk specifically about narcissists, but helpful in her understanding of the profession & of the healing journey. Also anything by Alice Miller, but especially Banished Knowledge. I hope this helps!

[here today]

Is your wife seeing a therapist because she believes she has NPD herself? That’s the focus of this thread, the difficulty in finding treatment for NPD even if you have it and want to get well.