Bamboozled, hornswoggled and hoodwinked?

Love it Byz!! Can't wait to dive in and absorb what you posted. Unfortunately it must wait for now as my son is reminding me it is already past dinner time and that I have been online long enough for now.

Catch up later.

hahaha... that's funny. I was just scrolling up and I noticed I had thanked myself somehow when I meant to thank Fool Zero for the post above mine. No! I am not that self aggrandizing. lol.

Why should you think well of them? Why should you think ill of them?

What if they are just misguided, in the same ways many of us are, not being able to see what is really important in life, having been convinced that turf and greed are really things that get you praise and approval (as they do, sometimes).

If they are simply misguided, why be so concerned, why think they have to be approved of or merit disapproval? Worth considering?

Hello, pachyderm. Since I may and have chosen my values and what is important to me, what others may think of my choices is not my concern. I happen to value honesty and integrity. Those in the mental health arena who prize turf and greed over the well-being of those who struggle with mental health issues have lost my respect. Even if misguided, misfeasance and malfeasance that harms others cannot be abided.

I get too lost in generalities, looking out at what I perceive others are doing/being from media accounts rather than personal experience.

I usually don't "love" or even feel very much sorrow for people experiencing bad things on the other side of the world from me; there are earthquakes, tsunami's, tornadoes, etc. going on all the time but I don't know those people! Yes, in a general sense I'm glad it's not me and do, when I happen upon a story about them, I'll worry about what I would do in their situation or, sometimes, I'll give where I've been blessed so others might be blessed in a similar fashion to what I was or so, in the future, maybe good karma will help so if I need help there will be someone there for me, etc. but I try not to engage too much with stories and things I read or hear in the media that don't directly affect my life or which I can't directly do anything about.

I don't believe doctors or therapists are any more guilty of mis- or malfeasance than any other "group". I have been in serious medical danger before because of mistakes made by my and other doctors but I don't take it "personally". No one is perfect and no matter what, there are going to be mistakes (and ignorance). I find it doubtful I would ever sue anyone; I had one doctor who literally put my health at risk and perhaps "should" have been sued but my physical health recovered and suing would not have corrected the psychological damage she did to me. The biggest problem I had with that doctor was her failure to own up to a mistake that had been made but, if I look at it dispassionately, doctors can be frightened too, they're individuals and have their own lives and problems and choices as individuals and I can't comment on their choices as they are theirs.

I like to think I am complex enough that I know my parents' actions, my genetics, and my own thoughts and actions did not "cause" my mental health difficulties. I think it is more a case of whether the sun comes up or it rains tomorrow, what "happens" to me and how I take it are equally unknown and complex. If I know I cannot "manage" myself and what comes at me from outside how can I expect someone outside of me to be responsible to do so? Which tree or house is going to get hit with the tornado? Some people build their house so it weathers the tornado better and never get hit and others take a chance and spend the time and money some other way and get hit. There are too many factors to sort out and all I feel I can do is what makes sense to me in my life at this moment.

I am interested in why people -- including myself -- have trouble evaluating others who do things that seem improper. I think I have learned from examining myself, wondering why I am concerned with those others. Why I often seem to need them to be something that they are not. That is why I posed the question if it were something worth thinking about.

Quote:

My attempt to add meaning to my life is made more challenging by the semantics used to describe various concepts such as “truth,” “reality” or “values.” I expect I make this process more difficult by wanting to ensure my understanding of a concept is the correct one. It is an ego thing. Definitions of concept vary in degree of difficulty:

...your understanding of A concept, or your understanding of THE concept (of truth, reality or values)?

Merriam-Webster states: Definition of CONCEPT
1 : something conceived in the mind : thought, notion
2 : an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances

Therefore, since it is conceived in the mind, wouldn't it therefore be mental?

Quote:

Concepts are thus logical, not mental, entities.

Isn't even logic a mental process?

But, truly, the point I wish to focus upon is this: are you seeking truth or reality or values here? Circuitous thinking will not get you where you wish to be, I suppose. I wish to help.

I hate not knowing. I always hated substitute teachers in school, because the other kids would/might act out and everything felt out of control. I think if those we "trust", doctors and others we must or decide to give power to act in ways we don't understand or agree with, it can be very scary. It muddies the water and makes what one's self should do feel less clear.

Hello again, pachyderm. I see I misconstrued the point of your comment. Yes, I wish I were less cynical. Despite being a cynic, I often am told I am naive. I would prefer to be Lennon's dreamer. Frankly, I am very disappointed about what is going in the USA, and I am not the only one:

http://centerforpublicleadership.org...=254&Itemid=87

Hello, Perna. It is evident from your posts you have thought a lot about many things. Because of the work you have done, you have a well delineated worldview. While I may and do not agree with you in all aspects, that is not unusual nor troubling. It would be troubling if everyone agreed.

I did not say doctors or therapists are more guilty of wrongdoing as compared to other groups. My concern is with unethical or worse conduct that harms others.

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/bigphar...s-doctors.html
http://www.cchrint.org/psycho-pharma...-front-groups/
http://www.naturalnews.com/Big_Pharma.html
http://herinst.org/sbeder/corppower/pharm-agenda.html

Hello, (JD). Before seeking to learn more about truth, reality and values, I wanted to understand what a concept was. More specifically, I wanted to know what role, if any, conceptualizing played in arriving at my worldview. For me, my worldview encapsulated the meaningfulness in my life now, with room for greater depth.

While people surely may question the manner in which I conducted this process, the doing clarified a number of things and affirmed much of what I already believed. To challenge myself and take some sense from the resources I looked at will help me give perspective to my illness.

Helpful too is reaffirming that everything I view as true based on my empiricism may objectively be otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_truth
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-absolute-truth.htm
http://championofchoice.blogspot.com...ame-truth.html

Circuitous thinking in my mind is the best kind! lol. To me circles refer to layers. The opposite being a straight line.

A gradual circular unfolding of answers seems the most appropriate to me when exploring one's values and beliefs or how one arrives at or might see a particular worldview modify over time. One's understanding growing based on one's previous understanding. It happens layer upon layer. Affirming, examining, testing, rearranging... they are all part of the growth process I would think.

I like how you question any premise you may hold before moving on to study a layer impacted by that premise. I find it an interesting approach. It causes one to dig a little deeper while maintaining a heightened level of openness to alternative points of view that may as a consequence reveal themselves to you. At least that is how I have been experiencing it when I follow along with some of your search processes.

For much of my life, I have been interested in learning to communicate better. Anyone wanting to be an effective lawyer must have written, verbal and people skills, like being a good listener, recognizing the truth-challenged and understanding body language. Despite my efforts, I found talking to jurors after a trial to be very humbling at times. Coming to realize my perception of reality is not a universal truth has helped me get better at conveying thoughts, feelings and information to others.

A better understanding of perception and reality also helps waylay use of generalizations, stereotypes and heuristics when talking to individuals. Use of cognitive biases may have some efficacy in picking a jury, but I have no use for them when trying to understand a person. To assume or expect someone to act a certain way based on biases without any attempt to get to know them is quite unsettling.

Robert Priddy concludes his chapter on Perception Of Reality and Projection by telling us:

The aim of psychology is always to enable people to become aware of their projections in the interests of their own self-transformation. Only when one gains insight into one's own psyche can one understand others, because we tend, from early in life, to understand, sympathise with and judge others on the basis of our own experience. In the first and last instance we have only ourselves to start from and return to in integrating our understanding of our fellow men and the world. Thus, we tend frequently and quite naturally to 'project' what we know of ourselves onto others in the attempt to widen our appreciation of them. This is also partly why 'Know Thyself' is considered the deepest key to all understanding. Knowing oneself fully requires the successive penetration of one's own projections, whether subconsciously learned, unrecognised or repressed and to whatever these apply (eg. from persons, genders, age-groups, professions, cultures, races, age-groups and so on to objects, events, animals, nature, all kinds of ideas, relationships, beliefs and so forth).

Added to this is the fact that projection plays an important role in various therapies that can be said to reprogramme the mind so as to overcome compulsions, phobias and many other problems rooted in mental attitudes. Projection also underlies various popular ideas about 'positive thinking'. http://www.robertpriddy.com/P/11percept.html

Those who know me will recognize this quote from Rene Descartes: “If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.”

Peter Russell, in his chapter on The Illusion of Reality, tells us:

There are, therefore, two realities. There is the physical reality–whatever is actually "out there" stimulating our senses–and there is the personal reality that we each experience, the reconstruction of the world that appears in our minds. And both are very real.

Some people claim that our subjective reality is an illusion. But that is misleading. It may all be a creation of the mind, but it is nonetheless very, very real–the only reality we ever know.

The illusion comes when we confuse the reality we experience with the physical reality, the thing-in-itself. The Vedantic philosophers of ancient India spoke of this confusion as maya. Often translated as illusion (a false perception of the world), maya is better interpreted as delusion (a false belief about the world). I suffer a delusion when I believe the images in my mind are the external world. I deceive myself when I think that the tree I see is the tree itself. http://www.peterrussell.com/SG/ch4.php

I find this all rather intriguing, especially when Mr. Priddy says, "The main difficulty lies in the extent to which the mind is active or 'contributes' subjectively in perception. This is close to the question as to how far perception is an involuntary fact or a voluntary act."

What do you think?

And yet the brain works hard to present us with a representation of the thing itself, not a picture that changes with every shift of the color of light that is illuminating it, not a picture that changes with every shift of angle at which we observe the object...

I think sometimes we rely too much on our intellect to influence and frame our perceptions at the expense of other sources of influence. Sometimes we give little heed if any, to our intuition or what I refer to as spirit. Sometimes spirit will reveal things to us in stark contrast to our intellectual understandings. Besides that often our intellect no matter how knowledgeable of history is caught up in the evidence present in the now. It has little sense of timelessness and will take too seriously its present perspective on the whole of life.

Taking pachy's poetic observation one step further.... not a picture that sees the invisible that resides outside the physical. In the case of the tree... connects not just by sight but by feeling and thus sensing to hear its spirit. Not by sight or sound but by feeling. Intellect tells us we are delusion to believe such things. Spirit tells us to be sensitive to more then what our physical senses can reveal to us is to understand our inter and intra-relationships with all of creation.

For me, it's as though we live in two different universes that barely intersect. It's easy to forget that and start talking about the one as though it were just some obscure part of the other, but I find that trying to do so greatly distorts my experience of whichever one I'm speaking "about" (rather than "from") and makes it almost impossible to communicate it accurately. This quote, for example, makes little or no sense from one perspective (i.e., "universe") but makes quite an eloquent statement from (in) the other. I wanted to include a picture of it here but it seems to show up only when I click on the link:

Wikimedia Error

A rather silly illustration that I came up with some time ago goes like this. You're approaching a corner where two streets intersect. You see a sign that looks like this:


You turn the corner and look back. The sign is right where you remember it but to your surprise, it now looks like this:


That's funny -- you could've sworn it said "Fourth St." a moment ago.

The here and now? Of course! It's right there, it looks like a thin line, imaginary really, between the past and the future... um... it's got to be there somewhere. Here, you try looking. I was sure I saw it a minute ago...

Past? Future? What are those? Where am I? Here! What time is it? Now!

Hello, Fool Zero. Something like what you describe happens to me when I am reading and shortly thereafter cannot find what I am sure I just read on the page.

There was a time I would have said nothing. That answer is not helpful since it is quite uninspiring. Religion for many years was a source of consternation because I did not receive what I asked for. I thought happiness was a fiction. My work did provide some meaning before it became the only measure of my self-esteem.

This blogger responded to Paul Thagard and asked:

Ah, but what if we're not pursuing our goals? What if we procrastinate?What if we're not only procrastinating on some mundane report that we really don't want to do, but we're procrastinating on core projects in our lives? This is procrastination on projects that define us; projects that relate to love, work and play.

Unfortunately, this procrastination is not uncommon, and it's why I find procrastination so fascinating. We become our own worst enemy in getting on with life itself. We actually procrastinate on play in our lives or on love. We may buckle under when it comes to what Paul called work that is "wage slavery," but we procrastinate nonetheless.

It is here that we face the deeply existential nature of procrastination: the failure to act in our lives. Without this action, there is no pursuit. Without this pursuit there is no meaning.

Procrastination is not just the thief of time. It's the thief of meaning, our happiness and life itself. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...piness-the-way

I know the agony of procrastination all too well.

Steven Reiss speaks of the secrets of happiness:

Value-based happiness is a sense that our lives have meaning and fulfill some larger purpose. It represents a spiritual source of satisfaction, stemming from our deeper purpose and values. We experience value-based happiness when we satisfy any of the 16 basic desires--the more desires we satisfy, the more value-based happiness we experience. Since this form of happiness is not ruled by the law of diminishing returns, there is no limit to how meaningful our lives can be. http://le-foundation.org/file /Psychology%20Today_%20Steven%20Reiss_Secrets%20of%20Happiness.pdf

The Reiss Profile got me thinking. There are other value assessments online too.

Jeffrey A. Kottler, Ph.D., believes a life-changing experience will help us change people's lives while transforming our own:

Each of us has a responsibility to take care of those who are less fortunate, who suffer terribly and without hope. It is through such service and activism that we not only make a difference for those who need help the most, but we also transform our own lives in ways that provide deeper meaning and greater satisfaction. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...ing-experience

Steven Stosny talks about creating value and asks, "How important is it to make things important?" He tells us:

The emotions that carry the most intense value meaning are guilt, shame, anxiety, sadness and, if any of those are blamed on someone else, resentment and anger. Whenever we lose something we value, we feel sad. Whenever we violate or ignore our deepest values, we experience guilt, shame, and anxiety - not as punishment - but as motivation to be true to those values that make us who we are. Focus on the feeling rather than the motivation is like focus on the sound of the smoke alarm rather than the putting out the fire. The only sensible question relevant to negative emotions has nothing to do with your childhood or style of emotional expression. The only sensible question relevant to negative emotions is, "How can I be true to my deepest values at this moment?" http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...creating-value

Integrating what I value with the dimensions of wellness I deem important seems to be a worthy goal.

Social - developing a sense of connection and a well-developed support system
Physical - recognizing the need for physical activity, diet, sleep, and nutrition while discouraging the use of tobacco, drugs, and excessive alcohol consumption
Emotional - developing skills and strategies to cope effectively with stress, challenges, and conflict
Spiritual - searching for meaning and purpose in human existence
Occupational - deriving personal satisfaction and enrichment from one's work
Intellectual - recognizing creative abilities and finding ways to expand knowledge and skills
Environmental - fostering good health by occupying pleasant, stimulating environments that support well-being
Financial - feeling satisfied with current and foreseeable future financial situation
http://www.promoteacceptance.samhsa....0/default.aspx

Ah, but "nothing" means entirely different things in different universes!

1. "Nothing," as in: life isn't worth living and there isn't anything that can make it so.
2. "Nothing," as in: life is already worth living and there isn't anything needed to make it so.
3. "Nothing," as in: life just is. Calling it "worth living" or "not worth living" doesn't mean anything.

My thanks to Michah and her father for introducing me to the work of Dr. Brene Brown. After watching many of Dr. Brown’s talks, I have gained useful insights into how I have become the person I am.

What Dr. Brown talks about is not new for the most part. She affirms much of what I thought I knew and understood. Things like (my paraphrase):

• The importance of connection -- a sense of belonging; a sense of value; a sense of purpose and meaning in life;
• Worthiness -- believing we deserve to belong, have value and merit purpose and meaning in our lives;
• Wholeheartedness -- a commitment to self-acceptance; the courage to be imperfect; have compassion for yourself and others; to practice gratitude; to recognize the importance of connecting; and, to be vulnerable;
• Vulnerability -- the willingness to be seen as the imperfect persons we really are; to love and enter into relationships with no guaranty of success;
• Shame -- the fear of disconnect; a sense of unworthiness and not being good enough; a sense of being a horrible person. Shame lessens our ability to change. We think we will never be good enough. Numbing vulnerability to escape the fear of being found out as who we are also numbs our ability to love, feel joy, gratitude or compassion. To be invulnerable, we replace uncertainty with certainty -- I am right and you are wrong.
• Blame -- a way to discharge pain and discomfort.

As I have mentioned previously, I made some decisions at an early that have had a profound affect on my life:

• If marriage means violence, terror and intense stress, I want no part of it;
• If talking to people gets me labeled as weird and scary, I will not talk;
• If relationships bring rejection and pain, why bother;
• If God is all-loving, why is this happening? I will not believe, especially since I am a bad boy going to hell anyway;
• I can get through this if I think hard enough, work hard enough and rid myself of all that troubles me by sheer force of will;
• I shall not allow myself to be vulnerable.

Dr. Brown’s research filled in some gaps. I had not thought about shame as being so influential. I have been able to overcome some things. I expect I will always have a void that haunts me.

I am still a post behind you Byz so thinking about the effects of procrastination I too can relate. It always amazes me just how much better I feel when I finally get at whatever it was that I kept putting off. How increasingly debilitating it is to not attend to things. I know this even as I procrastinate that if I would just do it I would feel better but still I procrastinate.

If I look deeper at my rationale at any given time it spreads across the boards. Sometimes its a boring task I just don't 'feel' like doing, other times it is a difficult task I am not sure I know how to do or too big a task and I am befuddled about how to break it down. Then again it might be a task I know will have a disturbing or uncomfortable outcome for me or someone else so I put it off to spare someone the discomfort.

Specific to procrastinating on love, work and play, I do recognize how the inaction becomes the thief of meaning, happiness and life. As days of inactivity pile on top of one another depression can take a tighter and tighter hold.

It makes sense that among the most effective coping techniques for depression are 'to do lists' and exercise. I know for me if I can tick off just one or two things from a to do list, no matter how small the activity and if I can get myself to go for a walk, I will be much better off then if I ignore or don't even make a to do list but rather I just give into staying in bed all day. The former gives me something positive to feel good about, be 'happy' about, while the latter just feeds my negativity, sadness and zaps away any sense of life being meaningful.

for me, one of the most insightful moments in life was when the buddha taught me to let everything be OK,, there are just no words i can use to convey how profound that was to me,,

i can really relate to the idea of being immersed in one universe and living in another~ or something like that,, life is a wonder, and i think Fool Zero's post about the 3 meanings of life says it best,, all are true~~~ thanks ~ Gus

The greatest influences on my sense of the meaning of life (or probably more accurately a sense of wellbeing with life forces or energy) are teachings from my own and other indigenous cultures. Within those value-based teachings is always the importance of balance and harmony.

While love, work and play may represent the primary pathways to life's meaning only if they are interconnected and in balance with one another can their meaning be of value.

Among the teaching that have framed my understanding have been the Medicine Wheel (balance and harmony - physcial, emotional, intellectual and spiritual)



http://www.dancingtoeaglespiritsociety.org/medwheel.php

and the 7 Sacred Laws (love, respect, courage, honest, wisdom, humilty, truth)



http://www.theturtlelodge.org/sevenTeachings.html

Edited to add: my turn to be a post or two behind in replying!
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Back when I was still pretty new here, I wrote a little about procrastination in this thread.

I don't normally use to-do lists. The exceptions are when I'm working on something complicated like preparing for a trip out of town, or when I seem to have taken on more than I'm going to be able to finish gracefully. The latter seemed to happen pretty regularly when I was in school.

It seems easy to get stuck with an overwhelming to-do list: I don't feel like tackling any of the three highest-priority items but it seems like a waste of time to work on any of the others while the top three are still demanding to be done. For me the best solution seems to be to give up: say the hell with the to-do list and my official priorities, and set to work on something that's somewhere around #7 if it's on the list at all. For some reason, with #7 out of the way #5 almost does itself and by then, #1 is looking a whole lot more approachable.

I think what really makes the difference is being able to shift from being owned by the list to owning it.

---------------------------------
The only New Year's resolution I ever kept, was not to make any more New Year's resolutions.

Thanks for your link to the thread and your comments. I look forward to reading what others have posted there too.

I know what you mean about overwhelming to-do-lists. One can definately get carried away. I found myself using detailed planning as a means of procrastinating on other things; avoiding starting tasks waiting for my attention. I would make elaborate spreedsheets and circles breaking down every hour of my day, week, month and year. I would set goals, objectives and desired outcomes; prioritize and sub-prioritize,. It was manic! And you are right, overwhelming and exhausting I might add.

Now I have 2 kinds of to-do-list. One is more like revolving notes to remind me of things I need to take care of or want to explore or people I need to talk to. I will check things off as they are done. Star things that need to be done that day or put a date beside appointments and deadliines. It will grow and shrink as things come up or get done. I also use post it notes that I put on my computer screen to remind me of things I need to do. The other is more like notes that help me pick up where I left off with a project.

My memory is so poor that if I don't write things down I will forget all about them. I am self employed too and often if I haven't the lists and notes I will journey into my office with no clue as to what I am going to do until I look at my list. If my symptoms are acting up and I don't have a list I will just as likely do nothing or get so overwhelmed trying to figure out where I left off that I run back out again crying.

Some days I need a list to give me options to start my day. Without it I can flounder doing nothing. The list will give me choices if none come to me otherwise. It works for me especially if I am not motivated to even get out of bed. I can't always go by my feelings or I might just be stuck in bed for days at a time hoping to feel like doing something tomorrow.

I usually start each day with journalling and prayer and from there often flows things to add to my running list of things to do. If not I know I have a list to direct me into some kind of action.

When I am relatively well and active I seldom need to reference my notes or lists but when my symptoms are acting up I rely on them to motivate me to at least do something.

As for who owns who between me and my lists.... I suspect it might flip flop from one to the other depending on my state of wellbeing..... with my pre-authorized permission of course.