[reader1587]

Was wondering if others here would be interested in a separate forum for discussion of critical psychology topics, these would be topics such as the biochemical imbalance hypothesis, attempts to discover genetic "causes" for mental illness (indeed the whole concept of crippling psychoemotional distress being a physically-based medical disease at all).

This would not simply be for an exploration of non-mainstream therapies such as acupunture, SAM-E, etc., but a place for critical dialogue and learning about the psychiatric and psychology professions themselves.

[Omers]

I would LOVE to see more forums for intellectual discussions about therapy where conversation was of a less personal nature. I also think it is important that it be it's own space to make it clear that it is intellectual discussion, what is said is not personal nor does it negate or invalidate your personal experience. I find when I try to have this kind of discussion in the current forums I end up hurting someones feelings unintentionally because it is a forum it is meant as a support forum not a discussion forum and people read it from the support perspective.

Love it!

[pegasus]

No because this is a support website, not a debating or critical type forum though there is nothing to stop you starting your own social group to discuss and debate such things.

[venusss]

If you do start a group, I will be surely joining it (or you can carry your debates to "Things that Matter"). Intellectual debate is sometimes more supportive in the long term than hugs.

sometimes we are on the wrong path and we need "support" in finding the way.

[ladyjrnlist]

Agree with Venus. Support comes in many varieties.

I think yes.Thank you for your suggestion.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by pegasus

No because this is a support website, not a debating or critical type forum though there is nothing to stop you starting your own social group to discuss and debate such things.

Peg, is it "supportive" to deny some people a forum to discuss things that are important to them, or to have to put it into some hidden corner? It is good to have that corner, at least, but even there one has to be careful of what one says...

As a child, I realize now, I had to not-think certain things, for instance any thought critical of my mother, because if I thought them then I might say them, and that was dangerous to me. So suppression of thinking is one of the most important factors in the history of my mental illness. I did not realize until fairly recently that I can think things even if I am not allowed to say them, but it is still something I struggle with.

I have found in my life quite a few mental health "professionals" whose attitude is to want to avoid anything that makes them afraid; to promote covering up distress, to always say that you are "fine". They often give "reasons" why it is important to avoid strife, but the real reason is that they are afraid of it. But they do not want to admit even to themselves that they are afraid, so they cover that up with "justifications" (which are not necessarily totally wrong, either). What message does that send when the mental health professionals do not see their own motivations?

That is one of the main objections I have had to psychotropic medications: that they are too often used to cover up unwanted truths, rather than trying to reveal them. How can it be supportive to the truth to not let people talk about ALL their experiences?

Now what do you do when (or if) you realize that some of the professionals are afraid of you? If you are lucky, and gain enough understanding, you may accept that they are afraid, and begin to treat them as you would with anyone who is afraid: with understanding, with care, with compassion. Not by totally shutting up, but by being much more understanding when you do express yourself. I find that a hard thing to do, but really very rewarding when I can do it. So, I think there is value in letting people express themselves, even when what they say frightens you -- that is the only way to begin to address the causes of what makes them so "frightening" in the first place.

[venusss]

I agree with Pachy fully. The "support" motto on this site is becoming counterproductive. Thinking and productive debates are shot down in name of "support". One reads here stories every day of people being lost, but many continue on the same path because it' the mainstream, because the professionals say so... but it's not working for them.

That is one of the main objections I have had to psychotropic medications: that they are too often used to cover up unwanted truths, rather than trying to reveal them. How can it be supportive to the truth to not let people talk about ALL their experiences?

Definitelly. There are quite few people here doing the non-med route, but not many of us actually speak too much in the forums, because of the atmosphere that is here.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

There are quite few people here doing the non-med route, but not many of us actually speak too much in the forums, because of the atmosphere that is here.

But, as I said, it can be worthwhile to try to actually work with that atmosphere, to learn to cope with it, to learn not to be shut down inside yourself in spite of it! Just "one more learning experience"!

[venusss]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

But, as I said, it can be worthwhile to try to actually work with that atmosphere, to learn to cope with it, to learn not to be shut down inside yourself in spite of it! Just "one more learning experience"!

I am just saying that it's ironic that with all the focus on "support", certain legitimate view points are not really accepted here.

[pegasus]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Peg, is it "supportive" to deny some people a forum to discuss things that are important to them, or to have to put it into some hidden corner? It is good to have that corner, at least, but even there one has to be careful of what one says...

As a child, I realize now, I had to not-think certain things, for instance any thought critical of my mother, because if I thought them then I might say them, and that was dangerous to me. So suppression of thinking is one of the most important factors in the history of my mental illness. I did not realize until fairly recently that I can think things even if I am not allowed to say them, but it is still something I struggle with.

I have found in my life quite a few mental health "professionals" whose attitude is to want to avoid anything that makes them afraid; to promote covering up distress, to always say that you are "fine". They often give "reasons" why it is important to avoid strife, but the real reason is that they are afraid of it. But they do not want to admit even to themselves that they are afraid, so they cover that up with "justifications" (which are not necessarily totally wrong, either). What message does that send when the mental health professionals do not see their own motivations?

That is one of the main objections I have had to psychotropic medications: that they are too often used to cover up unwanted truths, rather than trying to reveal them. How can it be supportive to the truth to not let people talk about ALL their experiences?

Now what do you do when (or if) you realize that some of the professionals are afraid of you? If you are lucky, and gain enough understanding, you may accept that they are afraid, and begin to treat them as you would with anyone who is afraid: with understanding, with care, with compassion. Not by totally shutting up, but by being much more understanding when you do express yourself. I find that a hard thing to do, but really very rewarding when I can do it. So, I think there is value in letting people express themselves, even when what they say frightens you -- that is the only way to begin to address the causes of what makes them so "frightening" in the first place.

This a support forum, first and foremost. That is to say we are a community that come here to support one another with mental health issues. People come here seeking support, comfort, and a caring listening ear.

Nobody is denying those who want to debate, plenty debates take place all over the forum but again I'll state these forums are mainly for helping/supporting people in difficulties. Critical debates tend to get heated and locked because of bad feelings, we don't want to promote bad feelings on a support forum.

I'm not a person who advocates medication, as you know and I'm certainly not trying to 'cover' anything up, there are other places on the web for critical discussions and heated debates. Psych Central is a place to be supportive to all. DocJohn has catered for those that want more critical/political/religious discussions in the provision of the social groups. These social groups then become a very active part of Psych Central with their own section. I see no need to for a 'critical psych' forum other than it being a social group.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by pegasus

This a support forum, first and foremost. That is to say we are a community that come here to support one another with mental health issues. People come here seeking support, comfort, a caring listening ear.

What I am saying is that it is "supportive" to listen to people -- which is one of the things that you say also -- to listen to everything they have to say.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I am just saying that it's ironic that with all the focus on "support", certain legitimate view points are not really accepted here.

Can you learn to live with "irony"? Not just live with it, but to thrive with it?

[venusss]

peg.... but the thing is... many people don't feel supported here. One has to walk on eggshells so somebody's feelings don't get hurt... and some here have feelings as delicate as soap bubbles.

Nobody would HAVE to engage in the debates, just as now people don't go to some forums right now. But those who are seeking alternatives, those who feel they want to look into alternative path, those who want to share their experience... how supportive is to deny those people that chance? It might HELP them in the end.

This place should be a place to find information, options, have our viewpoints challenged when necesary. Place for real advice.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Can you learn to live with "irony"? Not just live with it, but to thrive with it?

I like irony. After all, I come from a country that elected a guy who wrote absurd drama as a president.

[Omers]

I often feel like I am trying to talk with my mouth sewn shut. I think that there needs to be a place for the less vulnerable people here as well as those of us who are philosophers/academics/critical thinkers.
There are places on here for professionals who want to discuss these things. I think that as informed clients we should have a place to have that conversation too. Many of us are trying too... here and there you can find a post like this but it is usually buried deep in a thread. It is often ignored by the OP and it would be inconsiderate to push it or hijack the thread. Threads that are started with this kind of thing in mind are often miss read and get lost in the jumble (ie my post on the end of therapy). I think it would be great if there was a place where the critical thinkers could find each other. Until this poll came out I didn't know there was more of "us".
Some here are really sensitive, that is where they are and I am glad PC is here to support them. Some of us though are in a different place in our healing journey and need a different kind of support.
Honestly I used to be a party crasher over in antisocial to meet some of my need for this. I got discouraged as often the posts got shut down when someone ventured in, not knowing the full conversation, not knowing that APD forum has a different "culture" and we'd get shut down. There were also some who, out of their need to fix people (who weren't asking for "fixing") would come in, bring things OT and get the thread closed or just start fights.
There are many different needs here at PC and I think that the need some of us have for critical conversation about mental health and therapy is being discounted at best.

[venusss]

I am glad that only one person answered that professionals should not be questioned, but at the same time... it scares me that somebody would even think of that.

The "trust your doctor/therapist" thing is a double edged sword and it can cause harm... because I think the first step to your healing is to learn to trust yourself. And too often here I see "it's your illness lying to you" when somebody questions their diagnostic label or their condition instead of encouraging the person to look deeper into the issue. We too often see "it's like diabetus, you canno think it away" (there has been evidence that thought can heal)...

[pachyderm]

OK; I did it. Created a "Social Group":

http://forums.psychcentral.com/group.php?groupid=159

[venusss]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

OK; I did it. Created a "Social Group":

http://forums.psychcentral.com/group.php?groupid=159

It won't let me join

is it invite only?

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

It won't let me join

is it invite only?

I see you as a member. It is not invite only.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by reader1587

Was wondering if others here would be interested in a separate forum for discussion of critical psychology topics, these would be topics such as the biochemical imbalance hypothesis, attempts to discover genetic "causes" for mental illness (indeed the whole concept of crippling psychoemotional distress being a physically-based medical disease at all).

This would not simply be for an exploration of non-mainstream therapies such as acupunture, SAM-E, etc., but a place for critical dialogue and learning about the psychiatric and psychology professions themselves.

I dont agree with having debates here. I can see many ways in which a debating two sides of the coin (of any topic) can escalate into people choosing sides and it end up being a free for all of members getting angry and hurt.

I also remember relatively recent (with in the past 6 months or so) the topic of debates has already been addressed by the administrator, stating there would be no debating because this is a support site where members can gain support and help with their mental disorders, but there is a way for those that want to hold discussions like this.

members can form their own social groups. I like this option.

Social groups are a win win situation my opinion anyway because you get what you want - being able to hold your discussions in a safe way, the members that could get hurt or triggered wont see the postings from the group and eventually the social group will expand to being its own forum.

[reader1587]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I am glad that only one person answered that professionals should not be questioned, but at the same time... it scares me that somebody would even think of that.

The "trust your doctor/therapist" thing is a double edged sword and it can cause harm... because I think the first step to your healing is to learn to trust yourself. And too often here I see "it's your illness lying to you" when somebody questions their diagnostic label or their condition instead of encouraging the person to look deeper into the issue. We too often see "it's like diabetus, you canno think it away" (there has been evidence that thought can heal)...

Yeah, I kind of put that in there worded in a tongue-in-cheek way…but the option needed to be there!

[reader1587]

Originally Posted by pegasus

This a support forum, first and foremost. That is to say we are a community that come here to support one another with mental health issues. People come here seeking support, comfort, and a caring listening ear.

Nobody is denying those who want to debate, plenty debates take place all over the forum but again I'll state these forums are mainly for helping/supporting people in difficulties. Critical debates tend to get heated and locked because of bad feelings, we don't want to promote bad feelings on a support forum.

I'm not a person who advocates medication, as you know and I'm certainly not trying to 'cover' anything up, there are other places on the web for critical discussions and heated debates. Psych Central is a place to be supportive to all. DocJohn has catered for those that want more critical/political/religious discussions in the provision of the social groups. These social groups then become a very active part of Psych Central with their own section. I see no need to for a 'critical psych' forum other than it being a social group.

I think I understand the words "support" and "critical" a little differently. I find it very supportive when someone supports me in a perspective where say I disagree with a mental health professional, or the profession in general (and can find it very helpful emotionally, which is part of recovery).

Also when I use the word "critical" I don't mean implicitly hostile or contentious, it's more along the lines of independent-thinking or non-mainstream. (Having said that I don't want to see something which disagrees with anything mainstream out of some kind of compulsive reflexivity, as if anything alternate by definition must be true. That's not really critical or independent.)

I will check out the Social Group(s) you mention(ed), I had not looked into them previously.