[venusss]

So I have been re-read recently Psychology of War by Lawrence LeShan... and one thing that he mentions there is that humans are attracted to danger, real or percieved. Also, how many people seem to be more happy and fullfilled in wartime than in time of peace and prosperity.

yes... I know I do have a rep for being a critic of the west. I do believe we are a great civilization... but at the same time, our accumulated wealth, elimination most of dangers and living in peace and quiet for too long seems to trigger our decandence and self-destructivness... both on invidual and societal level.

We don't need to struggle for survival... and no longer we need sense and purpose. Hedonism is tolerated and encouraged... but instead of happiness we got misery and self-destruction. The more industrialized the society is the more miserable the people seem to be. The percetage of people diagnosed in the USA seems terrifying... and i don't believe it's only because those in poor countries are underdiagnosed... not saying they are happy and not self-destructive (just look at Russia with their vodka and lately drugs... and high class uberdecandence... but i don't know... I doubt they were drinking themselves to death during WWII as much as they are now).

Various wars, some of them pretty irrational, are not the only symptoms of human self-destructivness (Leshan in his book pointed out that ants and humans are only two species that do organized violence). We managed to limit wars lately... at least here in democratic west. But we tend to do thinks destructive on personal and societal level. I am not for regulating bad behavior... But we should look at ourselves and think if we are doing a good think of ourselves and our species...

[ladyjrnlist]

I agree that humans need that feeling of fighting for survival. Many of us find that in stressful jobs and lifestyles. Those could lead to the increasing rate of diagnoses. Cimpanzees in the wild organize attacks on rival clans and they attack and kill each other violently. So, humans and ants aren't the only ones. There are probably more species than we think that do similar things.
In my opinion, the Industrial Revolution was one of the best and the worst epochs in history. It gave us so much, but changed how we live, what we value, and so much more in a negative way. Humans have always been rather self-destructive, but since the IR, they have had more free time to explore it outside of the arena of war.
I find it sad that humans seem only able to learn from our mistakes. The damage is already done or being done before we realize we need change.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

We don't need to struggle for survival... and no longer we need sense and purpose. Hedonism is tolerated and encouraged... but instead of happiness we got misery and self-destruction.

Kind of a contradiction there, isn't it? We do need sense and purpose! Otherwise...

I have been reading and doing a bit of studying of ancient civilizations -- they all seem to me to have similar characteristics, those of domination by a small elite. So our troubles in that regard are not new, not just a modern "Western" disease! Humans evolved from the other animals not necessarily good at coping with large-organization life...

[venusss]

well, I agree Pachy.... but I think the Industrial revolution, together with ditching religion made being decadent so much easier. No need to worry about making it through the day and night. No need to worry about what deities will think. it's just us, plenty time to kill... and many easily accessed tools to be self-destructive with.

[Timgt5]

Interesting discussion, but a few questions

What do you mean as "decadence" and Hedonism?

"The more industrialized the society is the more miserable the people seem to be"

Really? Or is it perhaps in a more advanced society people's expectations are simply higher?

I would remind you that giving up modern society would not be as easy as one would think, historic example in point.

In the 1970's the Cambodian dictator, Pol Pot, thought it would be a wonderful to turn Cambodia from a burgeoning industrial economy into an "agrarian utopia" governed by marxist principles. So he emptied the cities and forced march millions of people out into the county side and tried to make them all farmers.

How did that go? Mot quite so well, 3 million or so died within a couple of years from starvation and disease. I would not say the Cambodians were made "happier"

I am not saying that modern society is perfect, but I doubt anyone reading this thread, would walk away from their lives to go live in Zimbabwae, Nepal, or Afghanistan.

I thought I would start with the above remarks and let others respond from there.

[crazytrains]

If you agree with the evolution idea that human was evolved from the ape, it makes sense that we are the result of a genetic mutation process from the monkeys. And as biologically proven that any sort of genetic mutation species is self destructive, then our self eliminating behavior is understood. By rule of nature, there is no need for intelligence, so perhaps that is the reason that all the intelligent civilization in the history have been extincted and the less intelligent one survived. Naturally, intelligence is not needed for survival of the gene. Instinct is enough, as it is proven by the fact that monkeys have survived so far with out intelligence. So if you agree with the theory that evolution of intelligence was just a accidental genetic mutation, it is easy to accept all of the self destructive behavior created by it, such as love, greed, sacrifice, addiction, suicide ...

Another good example of self destructive behavior being a result of genetic mutation is left handed people. The reason there are more right handed people, is because that is a more life sustaining choice for survival. Being left handed is another degree of mutation, which causes left handed people have more tendency to self destructive behavior.

One self destructive side effect of intelligence is boredom. That is a concept that animals dont experience, therefore live a happy life, whether they have food, and mate, and other survival necessities. But human suffers from boredom, which is not a natural need, therefore we do thing to satisfy it by doing things that are not good for our natural need which is survival. I believe the source of all evils and stupidities in human life is boredom,

[pachyderm]

All I have to say is: huh?

[Sanada]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

So I have been re-read recently Psychology of War by Lawrence LeShan... and one thing that he mentions there is that humans are attracted to danger, real or percieved. Also, how many people seem to be more happy and fullfilled in wartime than in time of peace and prosperity.

yes... I know I do have a rep for being a critic of the west. I do believe we are a great civilization... but at the same time, our accumulated wealth, elimination most of dangers and living in peace and quiet for too long seems to trigger our decandence and self-destructivness... both on invidual and societal level.

We don't need to struggle for survival... and no longer we need sense and purpose. Hedonism is tolerated and encouraged... but instead of happiness we got misery and self-destruction. The more industrialized the society is the more miserable the people seem to be. The percetage of people diagnosed in the USA seems terrifying... and i don't believe it's only because those in poor countries are underdiagnosed... not saying they are happy and not self-destructive (just look at Russia with their vodka and lately drugs... and high class uberdecandence... but i don't know... I doubt they were drinking themselves to death during WWII as much as they are now).

Various wars, some of them pretty irrational, are not the only symptoms of human self-destructivness (Leshan in his book pointed out that ants and humans are only two species that do organized violence). We managed to limit wars lately... at least here in democratic west. But we tend to do thinks destructive on personal and societal level. I am not for regulating bad behavior... But we should look at ourselves and think if we are doing a good think of ourselves and our species...

it is a latent 'fact', that a few women and men find pleasure in destruction. The Russians 'were' drinking (about a bottle of 'whatever' per day). and taking drugs and PRAYING to god to destroy the destroyers. War and the last century brought about what we have now, e.g= THE INTERNET. What do you choose, to change the past or to as a human race keep making mistakes 'or', to stop making mistakes and become staid.

I know what I choose.

[elliemay]

well, I believe the first recorded war was around 2700 BC. Western culture and technology may contribute to us being "better" at war, but it's hard to say it's the root cause.

One could presume that, like which occurred in native american societies, and tribal cultures in Africa, people warred over natural resources.

Lion prides certainly wage war on each other for dominance and mating rites.

It's hard to say. War of some kind or the other just may be part and parcel of living on this earth.

[Open Eyes]

I think ALL animals including humans are very territorial. This winter I noticed more coyotes in the back. We could hear them at night fighting over territories. Horses do that as well in the wild and they do it in captivity as well, and often have a pecking order. With all our wisdom often we are no better than the chickens that will peck the low man to death. Is that not what we do only on some grand scale? No, often I don't think man is much better than the chicken at times we are constantly pecking at each other.

And I don't blame the intellegent humans for getting bored with it all. One of the things I noticed was the nicest pony I had on the farm was the lowest on the totum pole in the pecking order. I separated her and allowed her to get the break she so deserved.

Open Eyes

[Lostime]

Maybe we are self-destructive to get a new result!

Chaos theory
It can be difficult to tell from data whether a physical or other observed process is random or chaotic, because in practice no time series consists of pure 'signal.' There will always be some form of corrupting noise, even if it is present as round-off or truncation error. Thus any real time series, even if mostly deterministic, will contain some randomness.

Chaos theory in organizational development.
Self-organization, as opposed to natural or social selection, is a dynamic change within the organization where system changes are made by recalculating, re-inventing and modifying its structure in order to adapt, survive, grow, and develop. Self-organization is the result of re-invention and creative adaptation due to the introduction of, or being in a constant state of, perturbed equilibrium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_t...al_development

[protector1973]

left handed people make more money then right handed people,intelligence is needed, its like passing on to your tribes where to find food and water. inteligence is a necessity.this is how we evolve by using our intelligence.

“Most of the luxuries and many of the so-called comforts of life, are not only not indispensable, but positive hindrances to the elevation of mankind.” -Henry David Thoreau

Granted, Thoreau was adamant on the importance of simplicity in life. But he has a point. In my most humble opinion, those in wartime don't have the luxury of making mistakes. Whereas, in peacetime, we feel a sense of security and we become reckless.

[kundi]

Its hard to say or deny such statement as "humans are self-destructive by nature".

What does mean to be self-destructive? Being self-destructive to yourself or to others, be able to be self-destructive, or something else?

Beside that its always hard to take the lines on some patterns - for instance if you take some individuals and want to make assumptions on all human beings.

Did you read I'm OK, you're OK by Thomas A Harris MD ?

I believe, as long as human is able to control and reprogram mind, and come up with certain absolute moral facts, it is definitely not self-destructive being.

[crazytrains]

Here is a misunderstanding of public that industrialization make people miserable. The reason is industrialization makes instinctual satisfaction easier, therefore people look for more intellectual reasons for survival, which doesnt exist