[ava1enzue1a]

(This could trigger, so proceed with caution)

I was reading a definition on the concept of "ego death" and came across this:

...total annihilation on all imaginable levels - physical destruction, emotional disaster, intellectual and philosophical defeat, ultimate moral failure, and absolute damnation of transcendental proportions. This experience of ego death seems to entail an instant merciless destruction of all previous reference points in the life of the individual.

– Stan Grof from "The Adventure of Self-Discovery"

Why is it that a life which took decades to construct, can be destroyed only in a matter of minutes, even seconds!? This is depressing. How does one accept this, or even go about learning how to? Really, this makes me quite sad (and fearful, to be honest).

Advice?

[Leed]

Well, I think unless someone is unimaginably fragile, it would take quite awhile to totally anhiliate their ego in a matter of seconds, minutes, even hours. I know for me, it took years for my ex to destroy my self-esteem to the point where I was actually thinking of suicide even tho I would never have done it. There may be people who WOULD have done it at that point, but I personally don't believe in it since I could have done something about it -- which most people can anyway. Most people can change their conditons either by getting therapy, moving from the situation, or if it's 'acute' going into the hospital (of course I'm assuming they really want to live).

So I don't think life is THAT fragile unless the person actually MAKES it that way. People CAN self-destruct.

[KathyM]

Hi ava1enzuela

Your definition of "ego death" adequately describes what happened to me on a November day in 1996. At the time I was a strong, vibrant, independent woman with a zest for life and plans to return to school to further my education. I needed new glasses, but the optometrist said he saw something strange in my eyes he had never seen before. I contacted my mother's former corneal specialist, and he confirmed I had the same illness that destroyed my mother's life - a very rare form of familial amyloidosis, which is untreatable and incurable. I never believed my mother had amyloidosis - thought all her symptoms were due to diabetes. I felt "in the clear" because I was not diabetic. Dr. S confirmed all those symptoms were due to amyloidosis, not diabetes. I was told I would lose the use of my arms/legs (neuropathy), become very ill, and that I probably only had a few years left of eyesight. To top it all off, my face would become "hideously disfigured" to the point where I would look more like a bloodhound than a human being.

The last ten years of my mother's life was a nightmare. It's particularly cruel for a blind person to also lose their balance, sense of touch and be in a perpetual state of motion sickeness. As much as we couldn't stand each other, even I felt sorry for her. I thanked my "lucky stars" on a daily basis I didn't have diabetes. I'd go home to my apartment, turn off the lights and try to navigate my way - only to stumble over something and think "I could NEVER be a blind person."

My vision is very distorted, and it makes me ill to focus too much but at least I can still see (I have a pinhole of acuity). I'm still alive, but I feel as though I died that day in 1996. Life is over for me, and walking in my mother's shoes is no life at all. I hope and pray I never become completely blind because I feel as though society hates me for being a "tax burden" on them. Even worse, all the political talk tinged with racist discrimination against blacks and Mexicans confirms in my mind they all want me dead and gone.

So yeah "ego death" sucks. Do you best not to let this ever happen to you.

[missbelle]

[quote=KathyM;2474523]Hi ava1enzuela

My vision is very distorted, and it makes me ill to focus too much but at least I can still see (I have a pinhole of acuity). I'm still alive, but I feel as though I died that day in 1996. Life is over for me, and walking in my mother's shoes is no life at all. I hope and pray I never become completely blind because I feel as though society hates me for being a "tax burden" on them. Even worse, all the political talk tinged with racist discrimination against blacks and Mexicans confirms in my mind they all want me dead and gone.
I am so sorry you are feeling like society wants you gone...it is certainly not us here, so who cares about the rest of society.....I think as a senior citizen myself, is that society might even feel the same way about older adults. Well, its up to us and you, to change all their minds isn't it? Just because we are not employed, and paying taxes doesn't mean we are not a positive influence on society whatever that is anyway.....another word now for maybe the media who relishes youth and beauty and productivity!

You life is not over because you are here sharing, and thanks for that!!

[di meliora]

Soul murder comes to mind: http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/shengold-soul.html

[Perna]

Any living thing can be destroyed in a matter of seconds by accident, "Act of God," deliberately. With humans there are more points of vulnerability because we have more "moving parts," can think/use words, so our mind is vulnerable too, which is not the case for animals or plants. Our animal pets depend on us and, if we're loving, competent owners, they live long, pleasant lives. We don't have owners or anyone to depend upon once we are grown, just ourselves and, perhaps each other but each person is ultimately only themselves, can make choices that may be good or bad (my cats cannot decide to eat too much if I don't put too much food down for them, for example) for themselves as a living organism.

[ava1enzue1a]

Originally Posted by Leed

I don't think life is THAT fragile unless the person actually MAKES it that way.

In the case of Mr. Grof's definition, the person doesn't have a choice - it is out of their control.

Originally Posted by Leed

People CAN self-destruct.

Yes, that's me. Again though, it is an out-of-control feeling, not to mention exasperating and terrifying.

Originally Posted by KathyM

So yeah "ego death" sucks. Do you best not to let this ever happen to you.

It probably already has, or has been happening. Except someone who's taunted and eventually destroyed by his own unwanted feelings. Can't even think or type clearly (aphasia?) because there's little rational mind left to live off. I'm doing my best and honestly this is all I can say, for now at least. Nonetheless, I'm sorry about your case of destruction/ego death, it must be very scary. I'd be scared as hell.

Originally Posted by Perna

Any living thing can be destroyed in a matter of seconds by accident, "Act of God," deliberately.

Should I rephrase then? Why is life so fragile? Nonetheless, I'm talkin about us humans here. Err lack of reason/rational mind on my part. This is what I'm talkin about. Referring to that definition of ego death, I'd say "intellectual and philosophical defeat" is one of the first things I could check off. I've gone mad, but realizing that is half the battle won.

[sunblossom]

This experience of ego death seems to entail an instant merciless destruction of all previous reference points in the life of the individual.

This is actually meeting me where I am in a positive way. For more than 10 years now I have been fighting to get well enough to return to my position in life before MI. Truth is, its never going to happen. Those reference points are gone.

I have brooded a lot over the last 10 years since the MI took me down this last time. I have lamented the loses while holding on to the dream of a return to glory.... someday.

Reminds me of the movie 'When Harry Met Sally'........ 'He's never going to leave his wife.'

Recently I have been thinking it is time to put the torch down and stop trying to 'get back' what is lost. Instead I need to focus on redefining success and establishing new references to who I am. It is like a death to the old self in order to open doors for the new self. I need to let go of the old points of reference and make room for the new.

I don't want to mourn my lost past anymore. I want to find a new trail that is more suited for my reality with MI. I just haven't been able to carve out that trail yet. Needing to return myself to my past glory in order to validate my existance is less and less of a issue these days. I am slowly coming around to realize I am not that person anymore. I may even be coming around to realize I was never that person anyways.

[ava1enzue1a]

^ Thanks for that! Pretty much what I was looking for. A+ post.

Originally Posted by sunblossom

This is actually meeting me where I am in a positive way.

Could be why it is titled as "The Adventure of Self-Discovery".

[sunblossom]

good one ava. I hadn't noticed the title. lol

[sunblossom]

so what do you think?..... trade in your sadness and fear for acceptance and anticipation? One never knows what is ready to be revealed until one goes looking in new and interesting places.

[ava1enzue1a]

Originally Posted by sunblossom

good one ava. I hadn't noticed the title. lol

Proves to be authentic, then

Originally Posted by sunblossom

so what do you think?..... trade in your sadness and fear for acceptance and anticipation? One never knows what is ready to be revealed until one goes looking in new and interesting places.

Absolutely.

[PurpleFlyingMonkeys]

I can see how this can happen and it's scary. It's nearly happened to me, but I'm a fighter and took back my life eventually. When I had a seizure (I know this sounds pathetic to let something like that get to me) I just gave up on everything. Every second of my life became a struggle. I felt nothing but fear and hopelessness. But months down the road, for the sake of my daughter I fought to find my way back home per se. And it started to work. I started to get a hint of myself again. And bam there goes another seizure. I decided that very day in the hospital that I wouldn't let it ruin me, not even for a minute. But it did try. i fought and fought and fought and am slowly finding my way back up.

Thing is, there are so many struggles for us as human beings. Some more than others. What seems trivial and easy to me could be the end to another and vice versa. I somewhat agree with the above mentioned, that we can self destruct, that sometimes we choose to give up but... That's not always the case. Sometimes it's just beyond out power to continue, sometimes it's just not something that is possible. I hope and pray I never meet that stage in life. So I fight, and I get tired but I don't stop fighting and hoping one day things will get better. Even if they don't the hope keeps my spirit alive.

[whatbeanbelieved]

William James wrote about a concept of the "twice born" - which essentially refered, in my understanding, to a similar "ego death" or "death of the soul", from which one could emerge with fewer... notions of the world and a greater sense of reality and therefore connection and meaning.

Also ego death sounds very much to me like the concept of "implosion" in existential psychology. Just wanting to ... share that too.

Thank you for asking these questions! I remember reading Erich Fromm's 'The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness" and within that book he argued that people find ways to relate with the world - including affiliating oneself to a large group (explaining the idea of mobs) and, more disturbingly for me, by accumulating knowledge and reading and studying and trying to "make sense of the world". I had to put the book down and walk out of the library at that point - because it made so much sense.

Human life can be fragile if we live in spaces where we are guided by unreflexive notions and actions, I think. But beyond that, like you said, there is a space of acceptance and wholeness. I think there's a lot of hope and beauty in that.

[wing]

I think that he had a good description going until he used "instant" in the definition. That single word tainted it. My ego destruction had an immediate beginning point, the day I was told I had Bipolar 1 disorder and realized what my future was going to contain. But the complete destruction took years of living unsuccessfully with the disease.

Putting my ego back together is taking years, too. The beginning point of the reconstruction was when I became stable on meds.