Over the last few months, I have been infatuated and envious of a woman who I barely see. She's 28, and she's intelligent, she goes to university, she has a boyfriend. She cute, and has a nice smile and bubbly personality. She's basically everything I am not.

I can't stop thinking about her and what she is doing.

I wonder what her relationship with her boyfriend is like. I also wonder what he is like and how she met him. Would he like me?
I wonder how she gets along with her family.
I can't imagine her ever being angry or swearing at someone or doing anything she's regretted. She just seems so perfect.

And then there's this other thing. I think the fact that she's a woman is a big part of my obsession with her. I think it creates more jealousy . . . and not because i want to be a woman . . . but because she probably does a lot of woman stuff that makes her a fully fledged adult, whereas I don't feel like I am an adult.

I also just feel inferior to her and I wonder how long I would last if I were in a relationship with her. I imagine that it wouldn't last too long since I am pretty dysfunctional and she would have to support me or put up with a lot of my problems.

Anyway I'm very confused and I was wondering if anyone had any insights or could share a similar experience.

Regards,

Toilet.

[lynn P.]

Maybe the fact you think she's perfect makes the obsession worse. What if she does get angry? For some reason I've never been the type to swoon over anyone including stars and can't relate to the groupie thing. I think it comes from not liking authority figures because they often abuse the authority. Everyone sits on the toilet and when you think of it this way, that unattainable person isn't so far off and hopefully the obsession will go away. I don't know if that makes sense.

You also can think of all the mental energy it takes to entertain these thoughts. You can make use of your time doing better things or improving yourself. I hope it gets better for you.

Thanks lynn.

I don't struggle with gender identity but I've had similar problems over the years where I would be obsessed with a woman to the point that I almost want to be a woman myself. Basically I want to be just like her, and that includes her gender I guess.

I guess it's because I admire or like things about her that just aren't do-able as a man. I was infatuated with a girl in high school who wore ribbons in her hair for example. Well, I can't wear ribbons in my hair, I'd look ridiculous. I like this girl's bubbly personality. I don't think men have bubbly personalities, at least not in the same way that women do. So again it's impossible for me to emulate her.

[lynn P.]

I re- read your 1st post and missed the part where you said you "don't want to be a woman". I made the correction and thanks for the response. I agree bubbly people are appealing. My oldest daughter has this very bubbly young woman at her school - shes always smiling and seems overly nice to everyone and in turn everyone likes her. Well last winter she had to be hospitalized for attempting suicide, which make me think not all super happy people are really happy. You know how we hear of many comedians who are actually struggling inside.

I think everyone is good at something or has some appealing qualities. The trick is to work on those assets. You could also become as healthy as possible with eating and exercise - that would make you feel /look better.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Illegal Toilet

. but because she probably does a lot of woman stuff that makes her a fully fledged adult, whereas I don't feel like I am an adult.

I also just feel inferior to her and I wonder how long I would last if I were in a relationship with her. I imagine that it wouldn't last too long since I am pretty dysfunctional and she would have to support me or put up with a lot of my problems.

Anyway I'm very confused and I was wondering if anyone had any insights or could share a similar experience..

I have these same feelings towards my male T, and i'm female. but you gave a very good description here.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by lynn

I think it comes from not liking authority figures because they often abuse the authority. Everyone sits on the toilet and when you think of it this way, that unattainable person isn't so far off and hopefully the obsession will go away.

Yes this method works for me when I'm idealizing someone. "Even Homer nods." Not only does everyone sit on the toilet, but everyone farts loudly; everyone grunts on the toilet occasionally, and everyone has had to make that return trip to the bathroom because they wiped their a$s inadequately on the first go round. Diarrhea is the great equalizer. I try to remember that whoever I'm idealizing is just another ridiculous monkey like me, trying very hard to pretend that they're not.

[lynn P.]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Yes this method works for me when I'm idealizing someone. "Even Homer nods." Not only does everyone sit on the toilet, but everyone farts loudly; everyone grunts on the toilet occasionally, and everyone has had to make that return trip to the bathroom because they wiped their a$s inadequately on the first go round. Diarrhea is the great equalizer. I try to remember that whoever I'm idealizing is just another ridiculous monkey like me, trying very hard to pretend that they're not.

LOL to that Snuffleupagus.

[unaluna]

is that the point, tho? not that everybody poops, but that nobody has to be perfect. the problem is that when parents "love" their kids CONDITIONALLY, then we grow up thinking a) we have to be perfect to be loved and b) the other person has to be perfect too, or else we drop them. This then leaves c) where we "settle" for someone and spend the rest of our lives torturing or ignoring each other. Or being alone? Or accepting that no one is perfect and taking the good with the bad - this is the hardest thing to do.

[lynn P.]

I agree no one is perfect and true our parents should love us unconditionally so they don't grow up feeling inadequate. I was trying to point out this woman may not be perfect

[Open Eyes]

Illegal, can you tell us about your mother? What kind of person is she? What kind of relationship did you have with her?

Lynn has some good points, however I think what men feel about women is they tend to think women have more power. They think about that because they are so attracted to women and that is how they are ment to be "attracted to women and the details that women express about themselves". Men actually "desire" the strong "nurturing that women express" as well. And it is no wonder how men begin to want a woman to "give them lots of praise and listen, listen, listen, with intent and interest and then provide lots of hugging and physical appreciation as well.

Men were designed to be the head of the household and to look to women for the setting of "home comfort" and to keep the "dwelling comfortable and safe". It is important to understand our original design. There were definite reasons for how we are designed for our ability to survive and "thrive". However in the present time, we have so much technology and survival has become "easier" that the origninal design gets confused and even looked at often as "weakness" or "reason for concern".

Men are designed to be driven to "procreate" and remember our life spans were much shorter than they are now. And women often didn't survive childbirth and men had to continue to be driven to keep "reproduction going".

You know IT, I am paying attention to my husband a lot more than ever now. And one of the big problems I have with him is that when I need to express my emotional overwhelm, he constantly reacts as though I am asking him to "fix" whatever it is.
And what I really want and "most" women really want is to just have him sit quietly, listen, validate me, give me some gentle "warm" hugs and tell me to be patient and that I am doing well and just support me and remind me of my stengths.

Well, because women and men are around each other more, and the man is not out all day while the woman "creates the home, makes the meals and works on the warm clothing etc. there has been and increase in the challege in how men and women interact with each other. We are given our own "intelligence" for a reason and because that original reason has changed, we still struggle with the original design and we tend to fight it and confuse it and can feel challenged by it.

There is nothing wrong with "liking the ribbons in a girls hair" and being attracted to how "women display themselves and even achieve and have a sense of balance". Those are all the things men are designed to look at in women so they can find a viable mate. That is how we were basically designed.

So, fundamentally, the things that you "like" about this young woman are all things that a "normal" man would be attracted to. Because that "kind" of woman is what can make a "stable" home environment for "offspring".

Unfortunately "society" today is often not being fair to how men were designed originally and it has created a lot of turmoil and "confusion" in "many men" because their original design is being "challenged". And it really is not being "fair" to men because they cannot help how they are designed to procreate and survive.

Men have a strong tendancy to appreciate their "tools" and "weapons" and "mode of transportation" and all the things that they can "utilize" for their survival. And they are designed to think about "construction towards shelter and function" more than women are however women are designed to add to that structure as well in a different way. We were "designed to work in harmony" and that has been challenged in today's modern human existance.

So you have to allow yourself to understand that some of what you are feeling goes back to your original design as a "male" and is not "nutty or stupid or that you want to be a woman either". You are a normal male in many ways IT.

Open Eyes

[Open Eyes]

We have really been upsetting the applecart of how we were originally designed to be as funcitonal men and women these days. And we need to consider how we are designed and find better ways to create more balance around that in today's society instead of how we continuously lean towards dismantling/discriminating and prejudice the way we are. It is having devasting effects on society overall. And that is a major component in today's increase in depression in the younger generations that is just not being considered.

We cannot keep promoting resentments towards each of the sexes because it really is having a devastating effect on the offspring and a major contributing factor towards mental illness as well. In this site alone the busiest forums are "relationships" and "depression" hello?

Open Eyes

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

Illegal, can you tell us about your mother? What kind of person is she? What kind of relationship did you have with her?

Not a good one to be honest, she was very demanding and impatient. If I wasn't able to perform a task she would get frustrated and yell at me or accuse me of failing on purpose, or she would just take the task off my hands and say something like 'this is how it's done, you idiot'.

. She seemed to take it personally when I didn't do well in school or in social situations. She expressed herself with anger, and I guess she still does, because I'm still not doing well, I am always unemployed and she yells at me for that.

When I was younger I was made to work in her shop and she would yell at me if i didn't smile at the customers or when I would sort of stand out of sight of the customers. I would do this out of social anxiety. I remember she threatened to cut off my penis . . . I never thought she would actually do it, it was just her way of expressing herself . . . and she was swearing at me and calling me all sorts of things.

She would hit me when i got detention as well, and i was always getting detention for being late or for not doing my homework. I didn't look forward to those beatings.

I also remember her hitting me when i was as old as 28-30, which i found emasculating. I'm 34 now.

Lynn has some good points, however I think what men feel about women is they tend to think women have more power. They think about that because they are so attracted to women and that is how they are ment to be "attracted to women and the details that women express about themselves". Men actually "desire" the strong "nurturing that women express" as well. And it is no wonder how men begin to want a woman to "give them lots of praise and listen, listen, listen, with intent and interest and then provide lots of hugging and physical appreciation as well.

Mostly what I want from a woman is some moral support, and to be liked. I have a low sex drive at the moment and I am a virgin so i'm not that interested in sex nor am i that attracted physically to anyone.

So you have to allow yourself to understand that some of what you are feeling goes back to your original design as a "male" and is not "nutty or stupid or that you want to be a woman either". You are a normal male in many ways IT.

Open Eyes

I don't think there is anything normal about what I'm feeling right now. I do agree that I am normal in a lot of ways though.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Illegal Toilet

Not a good one to be honest, she was very demanding and impatient. If I wasn't able to perform a task she would get frustrated and yell at me or accuse me of failing on purpose, or she would just take the task off my hands and say something like 'this is how it's done, you idiot'.

That's exactly my mom. I studied and did well in school, but my brother told my mother that the nuns just "gave" me A's cos they liked me, that I wasn't really that smart. So my family always treated me like I was dumb, even tho I graduated in the top one percent of my public high school class (no nuns there!). I remember my brother giving me a funny look when I made my family go to the all high school Phi Beta Kappa award ceremony downtown. I never understood it until a w years ago, when my mother told me what he had said about the nuns just giving me A's. My point is, how your parents treated you is more powerful in forming your self-image and your self-esteem than actual fact. All those A's, and I still thought I was dumb. Seriously. #7 out of 710 kids, me. Dumb. So you know what? I don't think you know WHAT you really are, how can you? I'm still finding out, and I found out a heck of a lot just this past year on PC. We DO know you have a great sense of humor, and that indicates high intelligence. So that's a start. my batteries are running out

[Contrast]

I had someone who was obsessed with me,

barely reached the bottom line of my standards,

I told her to go f**k herself before I was going to do with something to her.

Now the thing is, the way you described this female is exactly the same way she described me (besides feeling inferior).
In reality, it gets irritating to have someone being into someone with lack of insight. (this girl only sees me at work).

She seems so "perfect" but maybe once you've got a clear insight into her, she is just like the rest of them, cold, distant and arrogant. Who gives a flying **** if she is cute, intelligent and has a bubbly personality - that's **** all, what you need is a woman who will balance yours and hers relationship out so it's foundational.

[Open Eyes]

(((IT))),

I am so sorry, your mother did "all" the "wrong" things in raising you and helping you with social phobia. It is well known that children who have social phobia can be helped to overcome it. But the way your mother handled it, wrong. Unfortunately there is a lot of "ignorant" parents out there, even now sadly.

Raising children is all about giving them permission "to be" not about constantly telling them what to be. Many parents make this constant mistake. A good mother is suppose to encourage the child to be who they "are" and develope "will to be", they are not supposed to constantly "demand" and "punish", it doesn't work and only produces uncertainty and lack of self esteem.

Sorry IT, but you can learn how to out grow that damage, it does take time though.
I had a problem with my father who never would let me finish a sentence without correcting my english or pushing me to "add bigger words" well, what he did was he interupted my ability to get words together in my mind and verbalize effectively, I developed a kind of tick in my mind. I had to really learn how to overcome that problem. Sometimes I can still struggle if I am triggered or have a lot of anxiety taking place. I have seen it in my posts sometimes where I leave words out and I make gramatical errors or mispell.

I actually didn't realize that challenge pops up when I am stressed. I have been learning alot by having this kind of living journal in PC.

Well, if I can do it so can you IT, I have had to work out a lot of issues and I think if I can do it anyone can IMO. It is a matter of getting the right support and someone who finally gives you "permission" to grow instead of how your mother treats you.

Open Eyes

[rolan86]

I had a very similar experience. I was obsessed with a girl my age, and felt completely inferior. She was everything that I was not, a successful musician, a political activist, completely independent, and had many life experiences such as train hopping and hitch hiking that I probably don't think I'd ever do. I felt very inferior talking to her in that I felt so immature in her presence. My only life experiences were going to school, doing what I was told, and having my parents support me. I felt like a little kid compared to her, even though we were the same age. This inferiority I felt was the reason I never felt fully worthy of asking her out. Of course these experiences she has had only caused me to envy her lifestyle and cause me to obsess. Even though I felt a deep connection with her and that we felt the same way about a lot of things, in reality we really were from two separate worlds...

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

(((IT))),

I am so sorry, your mother did "all" the "wrong" things in raising you and helping you with social phobia. It is well known that children who have social phobia can be helped to overcome it. But the way your mother handled it, wrong. Unfortunately there is a lot of "ignorant" parents out there, even now sadly.

Raising children is all about giving them permission "to be" not about constantly telling them what to be. Many parents make this constant mistake. A good mother is suppose to encourage the child to be who they "are" and develope "will to be", they are not supposed to constantly "demand" and "punish", it doesn't work and only produces uncertainty and lack of self esteem.

Sorry IT, but you can learn how to out grow that damage, it does take time though.
I had a problem with my father who never would let me finish a sentence without correcting my english or pushing me to "add bigger words" well, what he did was he interupted my ability to get words together in my mind and verbalize effectively, I developed a kind of tick in my mind. I had to really learn how to overcome that problem. Sometimes I can still struggle if I am triggered or have a lot of anxiety taking place. I have seen it in my posts sometimes where I leave words out and I make gramatical errors or mispell.

I actually didn't realize that challenge pops up when I am stressed. I have been learning alot by having this kind of living journal in PC.

Well, if I can do it so can you IT, I have had to work out a lot of issues and I think if I can do it anyone can IMO. It is a matter of getting the right support and someone who finally gives you "permission" to grow instead of how your mother treats you.

Open Eyes

[Open Eyes]

(((Rolan))),

Just remember that girls can feel that way too, like they are somehow "unworthy" if they are not built right or consider themselves physically attractive enough or worldly if they are with an outgoing male that has more "worldly experience". Men don't always like "strong minded women" where they feel somewhat intimadated. However a strong minded woman "can" raise a "healthy" minded son if they can pass along the "desire to be". Infact, many of the very successful men can atest to how their mother backed them all the way. Didn't order them, or control them, but "backed them in their desire to be". And you know the saying, behind every great man is a strong supportive woman.

That is why I worry about the effort to promote women to "bash" men that is often being expressed in ways today and since the woman's movement began. It really worries me and I know it is leading to many men that genuinely struggle, which should "not" be the case. We are supposed to be learning how to "grow together" not apart. Women are going to end up alone and so are men. That isn't good IMO.

[SidOHara1]

Hey, IT.
I have a similar experience happening with myself.
Mine, though is related to a girl I dated, who wanted me to be honest and open up to her, etc. etc. who then broke up with me after I finally opened up.

Unlike myself in the past, I have tried getting over this the most healthy way I possibly can. Maybe in time you will find someone important to you who will help you forget this girl you are obsessing over.

But if you ever need someone outside of the forum, I am always here!
-Sid

[rolan86]

I understand what you mean, but I don't feel this really had much to do with roles as men or women. I really respected her regardless of the fact that she was a women. I felt inferior not because I felt I wasn't being enough of a "man" in life, but just because I wanted her to respect and like me as a person. I wanted her to see me as just a nice guy who felt the same way she did about a lot of things, not this spoiled, privileged, obedient, sheltered child.

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

(((Rolan))),

Just remember that girls can feel that way too, like they are somehow "unworthy" if they are not built right or consider themselves physically attractive enough or worldly if they are with an outgoing male that has more "worldly experience". Men don't always like "strong minded women" where they feel somewhat intimadated. However a strong minded woman "can" raise a "healthy" minded son if they can pass along the "desire to be". Infact, many of the very successful men can atest to how their mother backed them all the way. Didn't order them, or control them, but "backed them in their desire to be". And you know the saying, behind every great man is a strong supportive woman.

That is why I worry about the effort to promote women to "bash" men that is often being expressed in ways today and since the woman's movement began. It really worries me and I know it is leading to many men that genuinely struggle, which should "not" be the case. We are supposed to be learning how to "grow together" not apart. Women are going to end up alone and so are men. That isn't good IMO.

It hurts to live right now . . . I am just going about my day and all of a sudden I remember her and I feel terrible. Then I gather myself, rationalise it, and move on until it happens again. Or I just think about it for hours, trying to understand my own feelings and put them into words. It makes little to no sense.

[Contrast]

Originally Posted by Illegal Toilet

It hurts to live right now . . . I am just going about my day and all of a sudden I remember her and I feel terrible. Then I gather myself, rationalise it, and move on until it happens again. Or I just think about it for hours, trying to understand my own feelings and put them into words. It makes little to no sense.

Of course it makes sense,
you're rationalizing nothing at all.