[pachyderm]

This thread:

http://forums.psychcentral.com/showt...94#post2758594

prompted me to further thinking along lines I have considered for a long time. It seems to me that through evolution a number of "automatic" mechanisms have developed in response to "problems" in living beings, mechanisms that require no thinking, since thinking is unreliable and often much slower than reflexes. Perhaps stigmatizing is one of those mechanisms. When "weakness" in one of the herd is detected by other members of the herd, the automatic response is to attack the weak one. Perceiving "weakness" (or difference) produces anxiety in the onlooker, and so an attack-response is understandable. And by this means the weak one is further disabled, and his or her success in life (and reproduction) is further jeopardized. In this "automatic" way the herd is gradually cleared of the weak ones. The herd as a whole becomes stronger.

But this method, being "automatic", is somewhat inflexible, and tends to produce a herd that is "stronger" -- better adapted to current conditions -- but not necessarily adapted to changes in conditions. If some of the "weak" ones manage to survive and to propagate, they may develop, almost as a consequence of their disadvantages under existing conditions, coping mechanisms which make them better adapted to changing conditions, more flexible ("stronger") than the ones left behind in the old "success".

I don't know if you have ever seen, or read about, bird parents which produce several offspring, and the oldest or strongest one of the baby brood pushes the younger or weaker ones out of the nest to their deaths. A ruthless mechanism for ensuring the survival of the species in times of limited resources, and one that frightens us (me at least) when we see it taking place. But regardless of how we feel, it happens. It is a mechanism, survival of the fittest. It works -- after a fashion. Maybe attaching of stigma is similar: it works, it is automatic, it weeds out the "weak" -- it tends to preserve the status quo. And in that is its potential disadvantage too.

So maybe those of us who have felt the sting of stigma can draw comfort from feeling that "what does not kill us makes us stronger" -- we may develop new and more flexible methods of coping with life -- methods that the ones who follow the old path may never discover. Methods that even sometimes include "thinking". Methods that have their own and new rewards.

[ArthurDent]

wow. Very well said, Pachyderm. Thank you.

This has not been my experience. At this point, I fully expect to be bullied, and to be alone, the rest of my life. A T who gave me this advice week after failing week would be let go.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by unhappyguy

At this point, I fully expect to be bullied, and to be alone, the rest of my life.

We can hope that neither will be true.

[Open Eyes]

Thanks pachyderm, an example of what you are talking about would be to remember that often people reject "nerds" and even though that happens these very "nerds" grow and make significant contributions to mankind.

If we truely think about the people that actually made significant contributions to mankind, many of them did not fit into "going along with the group" but instead spent time in deep thought and introspection as well as searched for new knowledge. And they often returned to the "group" with this new knowledge that led to significant changes and progress.

Often the smallest and weakest of the baby birds manages to stay low in the nest, gets stepped on a lot but survives and once that strong baby bird is gone, it emerges and grows strong too and survives.

Open Eyes

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

If we truely think about the people that actually made significant contributions to mankind, many of them did not fit into "going along with the group" but instead spent time in deep thought and introspection as well as searched for new knowledge.

They had to, not that they wanted to!

[Open Eyes]

Well, sometimes we "have to" and sometimes we choose it on our own.

When you pointed out the "baby birds" it hit home with me because I have a barn and I have been observing barn swallows for several years now. Yes, sometimes the stronger offspring push the other babies out of the nest, and I have also seen the smallest survive in the bottom somewhere, somehow. I think these birds are so cute, they have very expressive faces.

This year I really wondered though because unlike other years the nests were built much "deeper" than ever before. I wondered if it could have something to do with the babies that were the smallest and thrived in the bottom somehow. I wonder if that experience led to these new deeper nests I saw this year. I do know that these birds come back every year to nest again, I experience more of them of them coming back every year. It just really was different this year when it came to the nests, it just makes me "wonder".

Open Eyes

[Hellion]

Interesting theory, but in my life I have learned what doesn't kill me does not necessarily make me stronger either. They bullying I faced at school as a child has just lead to me being more anxious about people and more worried about how people might react to my being 'different' than them....Stigma towards mental illness or any specific disorders just makes me feel like crap, especially when its treated like something with a justification.

Honestly, this was actually pretty depressing to read though...I mean if its such an automatic response how can anyone in a simular position to mine or a worse position expect to even survive let alone have some quality of life?

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Hellion

I mean if its such an automatic response how can anyone in a simular position to mine or a worse position expect to even survive let alone have some quality of life?

By doing something yourself other than having the automatic response.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

By doing something yourself other than having the automatic response.

I thought the automatic response you were talking about was when people bully or ostracize those who are different or percieved as 'weaker' as you put it. I don't do that to people as I don't like it done to me so I don't do it to other people. So I am confused what you mean by doing something myself rather than having the automatic response.

Unless you mean I should somehow just not react negatively to things like stigma and bullying...or magically be made stronger by those things in which case I would if I could because it kind of sucks being beat down and not being able to dig myself back out. I've been damaged by those sorts of things for a lot of my life.....so I don't see it as something that makes people stronger nor do I think that theory works as a justification for societies treatment of those who are different or cannot function as well. I guess I used to think it made me stronger but then I learned suppressing all my feelings and emotions is not actually a healthy coping technique and it tends to blow up in my face at the worst possible times. But not to worry I won't be pro-creating and bringing more like me into such an unforgiving world guess evolution really is at work.

[Open Eyes]

We are actually on the same page pachyderm, I do see what you are saying, but I was also adding that is isn't always a "have to" scenario when it comes to human beings.

I do appreciate what you are trying to point out here. And yes some of what we experience can come from these "mechanisms" that are "automatic" and it is important as human beings that we realize that it may not truely mean that if this happens to us that we are "unworthy" and have nothing to contribute to the advancement of humanity.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Hellion

So I am confused what you mean by doing something myself rather than having the automatic response.

Yes, do your own kind of thinking about the meaning of stigmatizing, about the meanings of all your reactions and feelings. Looking at yourself, at other people, trying to analyze things instead of letting them control you. At least, that kind of "mindfulness" is about the only thing that has worked for me.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Yes, do your own kind of thinking about the meaning of stigmatizing, about the meanings of all your reactions and feelings. Looking at yourself, at other people, trying to analyze things instead of letting them control you. At least, that kind of "mindfulness" is about the only thing that has worked for me.

I do, do my own thinking, not entirely sure what you're trying to imply here. It kind of seems you are assuming I don't do my own thinking. If anything I analize things far too much......and as for letting things control me to some degree yes my environment and lack of resources kind of effect the options I have and some of what I've been through has increased the symptoms of mental illness I have to deal with. but I am actually in the process of doing what I can to improve my life or at least become a little bit more stable...even though I am hardly convinced there's even any future to look forward to.

It is important for one to do their own thinking, however I can do my own thinking all I want and it doesn't make my life any easier..and it doesn't change how I feel or have been affected by certain things in my life. The survival of the fittest attitude in society has caused me more problems and if anything has been detrimental to any strengths I might have or might have had. If it makes some people stronger because they are able to just say 'screw you.' and succeed in spite of all those bigots good for them...but not everyone is effected that way.

[Open Eyes]

((Hellion)),

You have been very misunderstood and you have also been around "disfunctional people" and while you have been trying to help yourself, you have not "yet' had the right people come into your life that can validate you and keep encouraging you in positive ways.

I was not in a lock down, but in a way I was because I broke down and ended up in a psychward. I was very misunderstood there and I can read all my records and see how I kept showing all the "red flags" that was a clear sign that I was a trama victim.
Unfortunately that was not recognized and I was "further tramatized". My therapist has worked on this with me, validated me, and explained to me that this "does" happen and now efforts are being made to train people in these psychwards how to spot this and address it.

My therapist had gone over with me how trama victims are misunderstood and even misdiagnosed. They can be angry and they even try to isolate and don't want medication, all the ways I behaved are within the way trama victims act and are very misunderstood.

In reading your posts here an in the PTSD forum, you were very misunderstood too, I am sorry that happened to you. It was not your fault, unfortunately there are many situations where people are just so ignorant and because of that people can fall through the cracks and really suffer because of it through no fault of their own.

My whole childhood was tramatic, never once did the bus driver turn around and stop it, and you know why? Because it was not in his job discription to do that. It was considered "normal"? FINALLY because children now commit suicide they are recognizing that it is a serious problem. PEOPLE ARE OFTEN JUST PLAIN STUPID. That isn't "your fault" and it "isnt my fault either". I hear you, Hellion, I am a person who is often very misunderstood too. It has a lot to do with my past too, people are still stupid and they don't see it, we are just "finally" learning what to do with how it damages people, we are beginning to realize that it does serious damage.

At least you are living in a time when they are starting to recognize it and even treat it. They are realizing that it doesn't "just build charector" like they kept saying it did.
Whoa, I look back and I can't believe that the adults in my day didn't stop to think, and they even fed into it. I watched them do it with my brother.

Yes, you have been thinking, I don't doubt it but you have to finally get validated and helped along in the right direction as well.

Open Eyes

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

((Hellion)),
You have been very misunderstood and you have also been around "disfunctional people" and while you have been trying to help yourself, you have not "yet' had the right people come into your life that can validate you and keep encouraging you in positive ways.

I have a therapist, who seems potentially helpful. Aside from that though I don't think it does any good expecting the 'right' people come in my life and not even sure how that would be defined. Also considering I am dysfunctional I am not so sure how I'd get along with non-dysfunctional people I feel they would have way to high of expectations. More supportive people would be nice ...so I can better deal with issues I might have with others even those close to me.....but I can't exactly get rid of my entire family and everyone I do know and replace them with other people.

In general though aside from going to therapy, and talking to the therapist I have no idea how to go about meeting more people let alone talking to them or knowing who to trust or who not to. Also now I feel kind of trapped like if I don't get on SSI I wont have any options, now since I've been in the psych ward myself its on record that I'm quite dysfunctional myself....it helps having things made more official for qualifying for SSI but it wont help so much if I don't and desperately need to find work even though most jobs would easily drive me over the edge and back into the psych ward or worse.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Hellion

I do, do my own thinking, not entirely sure what you're trying to imply here... I am actually in the process of doing what I can to improve my life or at least become a little bit more stable...even though I am hardly convinced there's even any future to look forward to.

It is important for one to do their own thinking, however I can do my own thinking all I want and it doesn't make my life any easier..and it doesn't change how I feel or have been affected by certain things in my life. The survival of the fittest attitude in society has caused me more problems and if anything has been detrimental to any strengths I might have or might have had. If it makes some people stronger because they are able to just say 'screw you.' and succeed in spite of all those bigots good for them...but not everyone is effected that way.

I was not trying to judge you. And I am not saying the survival of the fittest is the greatest -- I am saying that it exists. Being "automatic" it has its advantages -- AND its disadvantages. I have found that thinking about things without judging myself or my thoughts and feelings really does help. It was not an attitude I came to completely by myself, but only with the help of people who encouraged that kind of thinking. There are people here who will encourage it (and you) too.

[Hellion]

I suppose I just don't really get it.

[Open Eyes]

(((Hellion))),

It takes time to "get it", and you are making that effort. And not being sure how you would "get along" with people who are "not disfunctional" is a very "common concern that people who struggle have".

And believe it or not, there are a lot of people that have struggled and grew inspite of it and are now therapists or people who find their way into the system to help others.
Some of the best therapists are people who actually know what it is like to struggle and made it a point to get an education and learn anyway.

Often what we may think of as "people who are not disfunctional" actually are people who were challenged but they just don't talk about it. You are truely not the only one with a disfunctional family Hellion. And you are definitely not the only one who has been bullied or misunderstood.

Just give therapy time Hellion, healing and learning just doesn't happen overnight.

Open Eyes

Ah, evolutionary psychology.

I've read a decent amount of studies on stigma from the perspective of evolutionary psychology. Did you know one of the reasons we feel compelled to keep secrets is particularly for this reason? Yes, as social animals, we weed out the potentially detrimental "weak link". As a counter-strategy, the "weak link" will attempt to hide whatever harmful characteristic from the group, especially from group members they desire most, such as a romantic interest.

Though I can't say I've heard much about this theory. It's curious... But do you know of any empirical research to back it up?

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

(((Hellion))),

It takes time to "get it", and you are making that effort. And not being sure how you would "get along" with people who are "not disfunctional" is a very "common concern that people who struggle have".

And believe it or not, there are a lot of people that have struggled and grew inspite of it and are now therapists or people who find their way into the system to help others.
Some of the best therapists are people who actually know what it is like to struggle and made it a point to get an education and learn anyway.

Often what we may think of as "people who are not disfunctional" actually are people who were challenged but they just don't talk about it. You are truely not the only one with a disfunctional family Hellion. And you are definitely not the only one who has been bullied or misunderstood.

Just give therapy time Hellion, healing and learning just doesn't happen overnight.

Open Eyes

Even so I don't think stigma really has evoloutionary advantages, I think stigma should be reduced if not eliminated, it certainly does not help people with mental illnesses. Of course therapy would take time to really do anything. I know I am not the only one...that would be ridiculous I just don't get along to well with people that are well adjusted to this society but then I do not like the way this society works.

[Maven]

On the "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" front, I don't believe that is a 100% fact. While we do see people who overcome great catastrophes in their lives, not everyone comes out stronger. Some become overwhelmed with depression, frustration, bitterness and perhaps lose their sanity.

I know an example was given about birds pushing the weakest babies out of the nest. This may happen, but I still think it's cruel. I do not consider nature to be wonderful and good in all cases. I think there's a lot of cruelty in nature.

And, finally, I'll just agree with Hellion's last statement about stigma:

Even so I don't think stigma really has evoloutionary advantages, I think stigma should be reduced if not eliminated, it certainly does not help people with mental illnesses. Of course therapy would take time to really do anything. I know I am not the only one...that would be ridiculous I just don't get along to well with people that are well adjusted to this society but then I do not like the way this society works.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Michael D.

It's curious... But do you know of any empirical research to back it up?

You mean facts?

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Hellion

Even so I don't think stigma really has evoloutionary advantages, I think stigma should be reduced if not eliminated, it certainly does not help people with mental illnesses.

I was not saying that stigma has any obvious advantages to you as an individual. From the point of view of evolution (if evolution has a point of view) it is unproductive to rely on individuals or any thinking they may do -- too unreliable. Better to have automatic mechanisms that don't depend on such uncertain things as individuals. After all, these mechanisms must work over eons of time.

As individuals, we may have to fight against the "evolutionary advantages" of stigma. We may have to think instead of doing anything automatic. If we understand more about it, though, we might be able to cope better with it in our own lives and even to change the world. Might.

I was just writing as I sometimes do in my "philosophical" vein. Maybe it is not "supportive" in any clear way to those suffering the effects of stigma. Better to curse out, to hate, stigma and those who employ it. At least that makes one feel better temporarily (even if stigma is still there). So when anyone sees a post such as this, you can say "Oh, there goes ole pachyderm again, THINKING!" You may want to join the multitudes saying "We don't need no stinkin' thinkin' 'round here! It hurts too much!"

Originally Posted by pachyderm

You mean facts?

No. I mean "empirical research."

[Open Eyes]

Originally Posted by Hellion

Even so I don't think stigma really has evoloutionary advantages, I think stigma should be reduced if not eliminated, it certainly does not help people with mental illnesses. Of course therapy would take time to really do anything. I know I am not the only one...that would be ridiculous I just don't get along to well with people that are well adjusted to this society but then I do not like the way this society works.

Well Hellion, that is what we are trying to do, reduce "stigma"amoungst ourselves. We are finally beginning to look at ourselves differently, we are learning more about the human brain and as we are doing that we are recognizing how we cause more harm than we realize. But, we are only in the infancy stages really in our understanding of the human brain. So, just because we are identifying issues we create, it doesn't mean we have this "knowing force" out there that is "ready and armed to address it" yet.

For example Hellion, you and I struggle with PTSD. People can read about it and they are learning alot about it, but they do "not" experience it first hand. And the people that have it also struggle to understand it themselves. There is a gap right now, but we are slowly gaining on that gap.

You struggled when you "tried" to go to College. You were not really sure why, and a lot of people can say to you, "well a lot of people struggle their first year of College but once they hang in there and adapt they do ok". This is "content" Hellion and the average people look at "content" and if someone with PTSD genuinely struggles, they are often very misunderstood because most people just see the content and not the "real challenge" itself. Also the person who struggles with PTSD can also get confused this way as well, until they finally get to understand "how they struggle" and attach the history that presented them with the PTSD.

When someone has C-PTSD with a long history of abuse that involves "severe boundary issues and invasions" for a while they unknowingly adapt, but they do not realize the full "damage' resulting from that history. So, as they suffer with anxiety and all the other "effects" of PTSD they can easily feel overwhelmed and what you also discribe as just some kind of "void" where they feel a strange "nothingness" or desire to move forward or feel good about anything. That cannot change until they begin to take all the shattered pieces and begin to put it all together and slowly make enough gains where they can slowly begin to see a "future" for themselves.

Now, for example Hellion. I can be interacting and get severely triggered. The depth of what is happening to me is that someone is "abusing my boundaries" and that can be happening "even though I have made attempts to tell that person to "leave me alone".

What others will see is "the content" that may appear to them that unless I win in the content of the interaction I fall apart somehow.
That is "not" what is really going on, and instead I am dealing with a boundary crossing that is challenging my PTSD. This is very similar to what you were experiencing as well. And this is also what leads to the person who struggles with PTSD to "isolate" and think that "normal people" will just not understand them. As a result they struggle to go forward and get "stuck". This is where you are Hellion.

The way "out" is always "through" and what that means is that you have to stop, pick up the pieces of the depth of how you really struggle with "help" so that you can finally understand what this all means and begin to develope "real tools" to help you get past this.

Hellion, you have not gotten to that level in therapy yet, you truely do not see it "yet". However, you can get there in time, but for a while you will not truely see it all, and that is not "your fault". Hellion, you have had times where you were "stigmatized" in your life. And you feel this is now just the way your life will be so why bother right? Well, you can either just spend your life "hiding out", or what can happen is that you can actually take time out to learn about it, see what it all means, slowly find ways to overcome it, and take this new information out to society.

That is what I have been trying to say in my posts. Yes, there are mechanisms in place that push out what may be considered "weak" in order to produce "survival of the fittest". However, with human beings, the people that might be somehow "discarded" by these mechanisms may not actually be "useless" or truely "weak". Often these people may take this challenge and in this time alone might find ways to thrive "better" than the "group" and these people "can" provide important knowlege that may end up serving the "group" better somehow.

Open Eyes