[Skanzi]

I'm a little doubtful about karma tbh. I know that if you act positively you'll both feel positively doing it and receive positive feedback and support from others. And if you act negative you'll feel negative and receive negative feedback. I understand that

But if you do something that is generally labeled as 'negative', but you yourself don't care much about it, and there is nobody who notices it, then i'm not so sure tbh. If you do things that society labels as 'bad', but you rationalize it being a good thing, and there's (hypothetically) 0% risk of anyone that will ever punish you for that. Will it ever get back to you mentally?

Example could be: I steal money from someone who is wealthy, but i rationalize that that extra money is important to me which i can support me and my family with and buy healthy food for them. And you never get caught, nobody will ever notice.

In that case, where is the drawback from that? Will some higher might every punish you? I highly doubt so.


A different case may be... When you do something that you know is labeled as 'bad', but you just don't really care about it. Like when you steal from someone, but you don't care about it. You don't feel bad doing it, but you also don't get gratification if you wouldn't do it. Again with a hypothetical 100% guarantee that you'll never get caught.

Will that make you a more negative person, will that affect your mind more negatively? Will it make you feel worse in the end? If you truly don't care, i don't think so.

I do think it's a different story though when it appears to you that you don't care, but that you somewhere feel like it's not right to do so.


What is actually the positive side to having self-respect? What is actually important about being a man of principles?

What do you gain from being nice, not cheating, not stealing, no lying and being honest? Why would you allow yourself to care about these principles while you don't have to care? Again, assuming you won't get punished by it by someone else.

I'm just curious.

[unaluna]

Well, cuz you have to live with yourself. It sounds like part of what you're talking about is that you don't necessarily agree with some ethics or rules that are being demanded or handed down to you? And that is correct - that is part of growing up, deciding what values to accept or reject. So you decide what values you want to live by, and presumably you would expect similar values from those closest to you - a romantic partner, a business partner, how you would raise your children.

I was raised in a home in which my Indian step-father was a religious Hindu. He frequently remarked on how westerners misunderstood karma. Karma has become a highly over-used term in our culture and one that, unfortunately, reeks of "rights" and "wrongs" and a whole lotta guilt.

As I understand the term, "karma" is about fate, not punishment. Karma has to do with certain threads of events that occur throughout lifetimes (reincarnation). It is not as simple as "I steal something and then some higher power punishes me."

[Webgoji]

Well, it depends on which religion you are speaking about when it comes to how Karma is handled. From the Buddhist perspective I can tell you that there is no "Karma Caretaker". There's no higher power with a check pad marking off "good" and "bad" actions. Plus there are no inherently good or bad actions. There are actions that are harmful vs beneficial vs neutral with the vast majority actually being neutral.

Now to your specific question. If there are no consequences to our actions, no being caught, no karma, no judgement or whatever system of beliefs you want, then, in my opinion, there is no reason to ever care about morals or principles. Just enforce your will on others whether they like it or not, take what you want, it doesn't matter.

But I personally believe it does matter and will come back around.

[unaluna]

Force your will on others? What are you, italian?? (I am, thats why i ask!!) Maybe this is where the so-called Golden Rule comes from, Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Do you want someone to force their will on you? Like the bumper sticker says - coexist. Or even, think globally, act locally!

[Webgoji]

Originally Posted by hankster

Force your will on others? What are you, italian?? (I am, thats why i ask!!) Maybe this is where the so-called Golden Rule comes from, Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Do you want someone to force their will on you? Like the bumper sticker says - coexist. Or even, think globally, act locally!

I don't think so ... My family name does disappear at Ellis Island though, we think my ancestors were probably criminals that ran to America and changed their names to hide. But that's another topic ...

But yeah, ethics, principles ... all that is there because deep down we know the world wouldn't function if everyone just went around doing whatever they wanted with no fear of the consequences. But to the OPs point, if there were no consequences, then why have any ethics at all?

[Baby Peach]

As a Buddhist I understand karma in one way and as a human with feelings I understand it as something different or perhaps I wish it worked in the way I'd like it to. Besides not knowing the true spelling of "karma", I often think about this topic. Sometimes every day. The way I understand "it" is like this: imagine a still pond. You toss a pebble into the water. In slow motion you see the rock sink to the bottom, the ripples of the water grow larger and head to the shoreline, the dusty dirt on the bottom of the pond clouds the water. Tossing that one little pebble made billions of changes to that environment. The metaphor? You got it. Everything you do and say, negative or positive, you have an effect in the world. That's karma.

Secondly, "ying-yang" tells us that everything in the world should be balanced. That's for you to determine. For example, I believe in see more evil in the world today than I did just 10 years ago. The ying-yang in that may be that in 30 years we will have found global peace...(ok, wishful thinking).

On an individual basis, per human, per lifetime, I don't think this balance can be that precise. The fact that I'm 38, single mom, failed back surgery, over-medicated, lot everything I had due to an injury including my career, business, car and home, I have that secret HOPE that karma will somehow sneak back into my individual life and help me out of this hole. But, I have to be realistic and know that that may not happen.

So now what?

Make your own "luck". I found a way to return to school, make my life a happy place including the small low-income apartment we live in. I surrounded my apartment with organic growing vegetables, made BFFs out of my neighbors, am involved in my community (big sister) and help at my sons school. These things open doors for me and make me happy. Giving makes me more happy than receiving.

I hope that helps a little.... Peace!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[misskrome]

I don't believe in it. I used to but noticed too many inconsistencies. Some bad people prosper and some good people suffer; also the other way around. Seems very random to me. Of course, bad and good are also subjective. Like superstition, karma only has power over you if you are bound by the belief in it (power of suggestion can wreak havoc on the subconscious). Just my opinion. This, just based on my own personal experience and observations, not from any book. I could be wrong. You never know. I just haven't observed it, personally.

[misskrome]

I wish there were a 'like' button for comments. I want to like a few of these other comments. Good points made.

[vans1974]

I believe in "self-fulfilling prophecy".

[ilikedesifem]

I've never believed in it. There is no evidence it exists and reason it should.

Karma (IMO) is a belief, like a higher power. I believe that if you engage in bad actions and do not get "caught" initially, your actions will catch up with you someday in some way. In other words, I believe people will pay for their crimes eventually. If someone steals once and gets away with it, you don't think they will ever steal again? I think they will be caught someday (perhaps for something worse).

You also sound like your asking if someone has no conscience of right or wrong, then why should they care? If society lives without rules and laws there would be mayhem. Aside from that, wouldn't you ask yourself would I want someone to steal from me or my family? As Hankster pointed out "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

If you don't believe you will ever be punished for a wrongful deed then I guess you don't believe in karma. I tend to believe that life will return the favor or badness someday. It may come in another form and affect you either directly or indirectly but you will be affected. My opinion only of course.

Its sad that you don't know what is to be gained by having self respect, being nice, honest and not stealing. If you've never seen someone suffer from the consequences of being lied to, beaten, having their belongings stolen...or you have no concept of how it would feel if it happened to you, then I'm at a loss as to what to say. If you just don't care about people in general and only care about yourself, then I have to wonder if you are well?

[0w6c379]

I've seen it happen with an ex of mine. Took about 10 yrs for his wife to leave him but it did happen. No one thought she'd ever have the guts to get out. I suppose it was a good thing for me that it didn't work out for him and I anyway. But the way he left me was pretty bad and when his wife left him I know for sure he got a taste of his own medicine. Heartbreak begets heartbreak. To me that was karma!

[possum220]

I hope it does.

[saw_q]

i believe it does. what you trowed is come back to you. he he he..

[0w6c379]

I wonder if people who lie all the time and/or do illegal things can they really be happy within themselves? Or, are they covering up inner turmoil that they relieve by committing inappropriate actions?

[saw_q]

actually they feel guilty.. that's horror ed them. they know it but they hide it.. he he.. my personal view only.

[Ubermensch]

First I would like to say Bravo to the OP for having the courage to ask such daring questions!! And now, my two cents.

Personally, I'm an atheist and don't believe in any sort of metaphysical "force" like Karma. I think the basic principle of it is true though. Do good and you will receive good, do bad and you will receive bad. You reap what you sow. But, as you may or may not have pointed out, there really is no absolute good/bad or right/wrong. And my general belief is that people mostly do whatever they want anyway. It just so happens that some of those actions are what a specific society/religion/government/parents, etc consider to be good or bad. If tomorrow we woke up and suddenly everything that was considered good was now considered bad I think we would all still behave pretty consistently with our personality thus far. So what's the point of it? The existentialist in me says that the point is to live a life that is meaningful to you. A life with no principles, no concept of right/wrong is essentially a life with no values. With no values, what is there to find meaning and worth in? Also, with the idea of punishment, ethics does not necessarily have to be consequence driven. It could be argued that what's good is good regardless of what the consequences may be. This isn't a view I hold, but some do.

I think webgoji's suggesstion of imposing your own will on others is circular. If there really are no consequences, then what would be the point of imposing your own will on others? There wouldn't be any because you essentially have no values, so why would you value your own will?

[fayeste]

Well it is rightfully their money that they've probably earned, so it is immoral. If you, however, ask them for it, because you are genuinely desperate for some, and they refuse, then karma would strike the wealthy person for not giving to someone politely asking in need, even if it wasn't even a mackerel of money.
But often I think that karma works whenever it irritates me, so like even though it may not because people annoy me not deliberately, secretly I still think karma works against them. Another way of thinking about it is if you're prepared to do something bad, karma might affect you regardless for having that kind of personality. So if you're a thief, that shows you're not prepared to work for your income, or that you've given up using charities that are there for you, making you an easily relinquishing person which is karma in itself because it's a bad personality trait.

[refika]

I lol'd at the subject line because my dog's name is Karma and he's sitting right next to me. So yes, Karma DOES exist. LOL

On the topic, however, I really feel the answer to the OPs question is do YOU BELIEVE it exists? It all comes down to your personal beliefs, values, morals and ethics. Why is it so important to classify a behavior as good/bad based on whether you will be caught or not?

If YOU believe its okay to steal, lie, cheat, commit murder, etc, knowing there will not be consequences to pay, or not caring about those consequences, then thats your personal belief and nobody can change that or tell you its right or wrong.

[misskrome]

These threads have inspired the heck out of me to write. I've been up for hours writing in my journal about various things. Thanks for the inspiration!

[scatter_scz]

I don't think karma exists. It is just a concept we've created to comfort ourselves and feel less vengeful.

[CastlesInTheAir]

Karma to me are those moments that wake you up to understanding and compassion. Its about growth.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

[Perna]

I think "evil" is a difficult concept. Deciding that X action is evil when one is not part of that action or situation and has no experience with it can be iffy. I was sure as a 20-something that I would never date a married man but I ended up marrying one (after he was divorced, of course :-) What I learned from that was to not use such extreme words unless I had been in and experienced all of a situation. "Good" and "Evil" appear more as extremes to me now, unhelpful dichotomies.

Too, ideas and ideals may change and yet we may not change with the "times"? Ten years ago the world was different but that does not make the changes (types of music, for example) "evil" just because I do not like them or my impression of them is that they are evil. What I think and feel may/may not be in line with "reality".

I think "do unto others"/karma is a good concept to practice. I want to be the best me I can be and that means when others are watching and when they are not. But whether someone else is punished or not; I know their life is "similar" to mine and the people they love get sick and die and have difficulties of their own as much/often as me and mine and/or if they are socio/psychopaths they do not feel good things as I do and I feel sorry for them. I want wholeness for myself but what that is and means to me requires knowledge of pieces and inequalities and sharp edges, etc. too.

[Fuzzybear]